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Should people be allowed to wear full face veils in hospitals? watch

  • View Poll Results: would you want to be treated by someone wearing a full face veil?
    yes - I don't care
    52
    33.12%
    No - I would like to see their face
    105
    66.88%

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    (Original post by elliemayxo)
    Any Muslim country that doesn't allow women to walk round showing any skin.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    What the **** are you talking about. I hate when people just "muslim countires dont allow...."

    There are 47 Muslim counties in this world and ONLY 4 of these countries have implemented a dress code for woman, Secondly, if there is pressure to dress a certain way in Muslim country , its because of the culture and not a legal issue. You will find the same exact issue in India, and India is not a Muslim country. Simirlalry the pressure to cover up is also found in Texas , Arizona and other conservative US states.

    LAST BUT NOT LEAST, the pressure to dress a certain way is everywhere. Women are expected to show skin in the UK too look attractive. This is as opressing as someone being pressurized to cover up in a certain way in a Muslim country
    . so stfu
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    I agree with elliemayxo, covering the face with a veil in nearly all public environments is a barrier to social interaction, and a security risk in the same way the wearing of a balaclava is. I believe a banning of face coverings has nothing to do with tolerance, respect for other religions, or being a xenophobe, it is about wanting to create a secure society. There are no grounds for denying full-face coverings are not a security risk when terror suspects have escaped wearing a burqa, committed robbery wearing a burqa as a disguise, and the balaclava is widely associated with criminal activity. Her final comment holds true, when in a country of people that do not regularly cover their full faces in public, doing so is a barrier that prevents full integration with that society; fitting in with the majority by adopting the same dress culture is a way of promoting social cohesion.
    Well boo hoo. No one has to sociable. Sometimes I just put my hood up on my hoody because I feel like it.
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    (Original post by eoe)
    What the **** are you talking about. I hate when people just "muslim countires dont allow...."

    There are 47 Muslim counties in this world and ONLY 4 of these countries have implemented a dress code for woman, Secondly, if there is pressure to dress a certain way in Muslim country , its because of the culture and not a legal issue. You will find the same exact issue in India, and India is not a Muslim country. Simirlalry the pressure to cover up is also found in Texas , Arizona and other conservative US states.

    LAST BUT NOT LEAST, the pressure to dress a certain way is everywhere. Women are expected to show skin in the UK too look attractive. This is as opressing as someone being pressurized to cover up in a certain way in a Muslim country
    . so stfu
    No it isn't. Having the choice to wearing skimpy clothing or even feeling socially pressured to show skin is not the same as risking having acid thrown at your face for not wearing a head scarf or any otehr kind of punishment sanctioned by the state... The latter is institutionally sexist. There are not laws in the UK saying women must wear mini skirts.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    But if a surgeon is directly interacting with a patient, speaking to them and explaining things to them etc. then at that time, they should be banned from wearing their mask, to ensure that the best rapport is built right?
    It's not banned specifically (though some dress codes may say something along the lines of expecting your face to be visible when not wearing a mask out of clinical necessity), but surgeons would never routinely wear a mask outside of theatre, so not when they do most of their talking to their patients. Surgical masks are actually far less hygienic than people think - they saturate with water vapour within about 30 minutes so lose most of their microbe-trapping properties - so I imagine that would render the "hygiene" argument for a face veil invalid as they would have the same issue.
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    (Original post by elliemayxo)
    Yes I think so


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    And this is exactly why no-one likes you
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    (Original post by tehforum)
    Because it's completely different as I've explained before re: nuance and rapport.
    I don't really think you've explained the difference here.

    If a veil is inappropriate for a particular situation, why would a surgeon's mask be any less inappropriate, in a hospital setting?
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    No it isn't. Having the choice to wearing skimpy clothing or even feeling socially pressured to show skin is not the same as risking having acid thrown at your face for not wearing a head scarf or any otehr kind of punishment sanctioned by the state... The latter is institutionally sexist. There are not laws in the UK saying women must wear mini skirts.
    There are no laws in 42 out of 47 countires that prevent women from wearing a bikini. Secondly, acid being thrown at you? How is that anything to do with legal structure of Muslim countries. Acid attacks are also very common in India? So?
    No punishment in terms in legal strucutre exists in Pakistan or Afhganistan or in other Muslim countries. I think the only countries which have implemented a legal dress code are KSA, Iran, Sudan and Yemen. and I think there is another I cant think of.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    would you then be OK with asking those muslims who chose to cover to pay for the infrastructure to allow the hospitals to issue these passes and pay the cost of running and maintain this system.
    I highly doubt the additional costs would be very much, if a security pass system is already in place.

    But if you are comparing a veil with a surgeons mask do you then agree they are only to be worn when the work requires it prevent contamination and infection but are removed during all other times?
    Sure. But I'm saying that, if such rules are actively enforced when it comes to a veil, so too should they be enforced when it comes to a surgeon's mask. I can't think why it should ever be the case where "In this particular situation, covering your face with a blue surgeon's mask is allowed, but a black veil is not allowed".
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    (Original post by Helenia)
    It's not banned specifically (though some dress codes may say something along the lines of expecting your face to be visible when not wearing a mask out of clinical necessity), but surgeons would never routinely wear a mask outside of theatre, so not when they do most of their talking to their patients.
    That sounds fair, if the dress code stipulates that the doctor's face should be visible.

    I think it is just a bit nonsensical, as some people are suggesting, that in a given situation, it is okay to cover your face with one item of clothing but not another item of clothing. If it's damaging to rapport, then the face shouldn't be covered at all.

    Surgical masks are actually far less hygienic than people think - they saturate with water vapour within about 30 minutes so lose most of their microbe-trapping properties - so I imagine that would render the "hygiene" argument for a face veil invalid as they would have the same issue.
    Interesting, I didn't know that.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    I don't really think you've explained the difference here.

    If a veil is inappropriate for a particular situation, why would a surgeon's mask be any less inappropriate, in a hospital setting?
    Simply put, the doctor is a professional and can exercise professional judgement. The lay public cannot be trusted because they feel as if it's their ordained right to wear a piece of clothing even though it's not.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    I highly doubt the additional costs would be very much, if a security pass system is already in place.



    Sure. But I'm saying that, if such rules are actively enforced when it comes to a veil, so too should they be enforced when it comes to a surgeon's mask. I can't think why it should ever be the case where "In this particular situation, covering your face with a blue surgeon's mask is allowed, but a black veil is not allowed".
    But it would incur some increase in costs if only for the passes and the printing of such. Do you agree that as this is the case the cost should be covered (pun intended) by those who have caused this cost.

    No I agree with you but do you then agree with me there are times when covering with a blue mask is just as unacceptable as covering with a black one?
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    Wouldn't it be considered an infection risk? This is if they are a healcare professional, not a member of the public.
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    (Original post by tehforum)
    Simply put, the doctor is a professional and can exercise professional judgement. The lay public cannot be trusted because they feel as if it's their ordained right to wear a piece of clothing even though it's not.
    So then if the doctor wants to wear a veil herself, that's okay, you trust her professional judgement?
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    So then if the doctor wants to wear a veil herself, that's okay, you trust her professional judgement?
    No for the same reasons why I argued against the public being able to a full veil.

    A full face veil and the blue surgical mask, worn in different contexts by different people cannot be equivalent.
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    (Original post by JackFletch)
    As long as it does not intefere with a person recieving medical attention or cause any safety concerns I can't see why not
    Imagine being told by a doctor wearing a full face veil that you have cancer. Imagine at least how others would understandably be in considerably more distress without being able to gain sympathy and hope for successful treatment and general emotional nourishment from their doctor and nurse's facial expressions. Apparently we know when a smile is real or fake. The face is a fundamental part of human communication and allowing it to be obstructed in a field in which communicating with patients and their families and comforting them in a constant barrage of bad news, set-backs, physical pain and grief is so important is unfair on people who will often need this human element, especially if they are isolated, as is especially the case with so many elderly people, who themselves make up such a high proportion of patients.

    Since lots of these people will either be too scared of sounding intolerant or even physically and/or mentally incapacitated, the only sensible policy is a complete ban on full face veils being worn by medical staff in hospitals.
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    (Original post by tehforum)
    No for the same reasons why I argued against the public being able to a full veil.

    A full face veil and the blue surgical mask, worn in different contexts by different people cannot be equivalent.
    But you just said: "Simply put, the doctor is a professional and can exercise professional judgement." Why do you trust their judgement regarding blue face coverings but not black ones? Is it the colour you have a problem with? Or is it the length?

    In the last post, you were distinguishing between the doctor's judgement and the public's judgement - not between the veil and the surgical mask.
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    If it doesn't obstruct or hinder the nurse's/doctor's ability to do their job then I can't see why not. However, one could make the argument that facial expressions are a big part of communication and thus the palliative care these workers provide wouldn't be as good. Therefore it would obviously be better not to wear a face veil.
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    yeah - but wouldn't it interfere with normal procedures, like get caught in equipment? dunno..
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    (Original post by elliemayxo)
    It's such a taboo subject when anybody speaks about this and it winds me up. Why is it ok for people to come here and throw their religion in our faces but if white British people went over there, it would be a completely different story? Yes, I really did just say that.

    I want an answer as to why it's ok over here but not over there. I wish this country would knuckle down a bit and not be scared of making rules that are legit and understandable and not have the fear of being called racist. I'm sick of that word being thrown around.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Why would you want to lower yourself to that level? I'm sure you think their intolerable society is barbaric yet you're having a hissy over not being able to act like they do?
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    So then if the doctor wants to wear a veil herself, that's okay, you trust her professional judgement?
    but their professional judgment would be backup up by other doctors professional judgment would it not?
 
 
 

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