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Is Britain becoming like Sweden in relation to expressing views on mass immigration? watch

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    Personally I find it hilarious that you think I'm a security guard.

    I'm a pressurised pipe welder studying part time for my BEng. I've worked at power stations, oil refineries and petrochemical plants across the country. I've actually said it in a fair few threads 😂

    Yes from the very first planning stages until commission is does at least take a few decades to get it operational. In this country considering the hysteria around nuclear energy, political inefficiency etc it will probably be half a century before we see any new operational nuclear stations.

    And actually I have a few members of my family who are/have worked in military intelligence who work fairly closely with the security services and they receive language pay for Middle eastern languages. Don't believe me? Check their websites, SIS and the Security Service advertise openly for operational/intelligence officers these days.

    I'm simple? Please you obviously don't have a clue what your on about.

    I can't speak for IT professionals but most graduate engineers top out at about £40k unless they have niche specialist skills or go into management. There isn't a skills shortage of them either unis pump them out like they're going out of fashion. My company has gone through 6 of them this year for one position.

    Trade unions? Look up what help they offered the striking workers of Lindsey oil refinery when it handed a multi million pound contract to a Portuguese contractor at the height of the recession. Trade unions are interested in political power not helping the workers.

    I doubt you could tell me the metallurgical differences between 304 and 316 austenitic stainless. Something I was learning almost 6 years ago, so go on and please lecture me about the industry I work in.
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    (Original post by Leeds98)
    Personally I find it hilarious that you think I'm a security guard.

    I'm a pressurised pipe welder studying part time for my BEng. I've worked at power stations, oil refineries and petrochemical plants across the country. I've actually said it in a fair few threads 😂
    Well after you said you worked in energy, and then wrote complete garbage for the rest of the post, it couldn't have been a proper job, otherwise you would have been less ill-informed. Oh and the security guard jibes, they were sarcasm.

    (Original post by Leeds98)
    Yes from the very first planning stages until commission is does at least take a few decades to get it operational. In this country considering the hysteria around nuclear energy, political inefficiency etc it will probably be half a century before we see any new operational nuclear stations.
    Plans for Hinckley Point C were announced in 2008. Let's say things fall behind schedule and so lets give them another 5 years after their scheduled completion in 2023. That would be 20 years from planning to completion. That's 20 years, not 50.

    (Original post by Leeds98)
    And actually I have a few members of my family who are/have worked in military intelligence who work fairly closely with the security services and they receive language pay for Middle eastern languages. Don't believe me? Check their websites, SIS and the Security Service advertise openly for operational/intelligence officers these days.
    I never said there wasn't a demand for Eastern languages, in fact if you read my post, you would see that I said there was. What I contested was your highly simplistic view that "because intelligence services recruit people with Middle Eastern language abilities, this means Islamic terrorists are the biggest threat".

    Care to answer points I raised in my posts, or do you concede that your original positions in your posts are all wrong?
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    (Original post by Leeds98)
    Personally I find it hilarious that you think I'm a security guard.

    I'm a pressurised pipe welder studying part time for my BEng. I've worked at power stations, oil refineries and petrochemical plants across the country. I've actually said it in a fair few threads 😂

    Yes from the very first planning stages until commission is does at least take a few decades to get it operational. In this country considering the hysteria around nuclear energy, political inefficiency etc it will probably be half a century before we see any new operational nuclear stations.

    And actually I have a few members of my family who are/have worked in military intelligence who work fairly closely with the security services and they receive language pay for Middle eastern languages. Don't believe me? Check their websites, SIS and the Security Service advertise openly for operational/intelligence officers these days.

    I'm simple? Please you obviously don't have a clue what your on about.

    I can't speak for IT professionals but most graduate engineers top out at about £40k unless they have niche specialist skills or go into management. There isn't a skills shortage of them either unis pump them out like they're going out of fashion. My company has gone through 6 of them this year for one position.

    Trade unions? Look up what help they offered the striking workers of Lindsey oil refinery when it handed a multi million pound contract to a Portuguese contractor at the height of the recession. Trade unions are interested in political power not helping the workers.

    I doubt you could tell me the metallurgical differences between 304 and 316 austenitic stainless. Something I was learning almost 6 years ago, so go on and please lecture me about the industry I work in.
    We can definitely command higher salaries than 40K. 40K is a great wage but its measly in comparison to what you can get with the right skill set

    BTW Leeds, I'm Pakistani and I freaking love Leeds (the city) How conflicted do you feel?
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    (Original post by Leeds98)
    I'm simple? Please you obviously don't have a clue what your on about.
    That stop with the highly simplistic arguments.

    (Original post by Leeds98)
    I can't speak for IT professionals
    Oh, so you only know about skills pool of your sector. So what were these broad pronouncements of there not being a skills shortage in this country.

    (Original post by Leeds98)
    but most graduate engineers top out at about £40k unless they have niche specialist skills or go into management.
    £40k is still approaching double the average salary. And I would actually contest your figure as far too low an estimation. I know chemical engineers earn far more, with most of my friends going into their first jobs at around £35,000, which is far more than doctors (another skills shortage, indeed the healthcare sector suffers enormous shortages)

    (Original post by Leeds98)
    There isn't a skills shortage of them either unis pump them out like they're going out of fashion. My company has gone through 6 of them this year for one position.
    Are you saying 6 people applies for 1 position? Because you know that is a very low ratio, given that gradutes apply for tens of jobs in the final year.

    Or are you saying you got through 6 people in 1 position over the course of a year? Because high turnover of staff is a strong indication of shortages, due to the mobility this causes within the job market.

    (Original post by Leeds98)
    Trade unions? Look up what help they offered the striking workers of Lindsey oil refinery when it handed a multi million pound contract to a Portuguese contractor at the height of the recession. Trade unions are interested in political power not helping the workers.
    What proportion of the workers were unionised?

    You should be aware that by the 21st century, British trade unions are enfeebled due to diminishing membership (British don't tend to join them the way continental Europeans do)

    Also, you said it yourself it was a recession, the hardest time for collective bargaining, due to the job surplus. Now that we are in better economic times, with higher flows of immigration as a result, union activity is in a strong position.

    And I am not a fan of trade unions, but it was you who complained about the lack of workers' ability to compete individually in the face of a competitive job market, and unionisation is the usual response (and is far more liberal, than introducing protectionist measures to the labour market)

    (Original post by Leeds98)
    I doubt you could tell me the metallurgical differences between 304 and 316 austenitic stainless. Something I was learning almost 6 years ago, so go on and please lecture me about the industry I work in.
    No I couldn't, and it's completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand (climate change solutions, immigration and the labour market, and threats from terrorism). But nice try at attempting to deflect the discussion away the one you are obviously loosing.
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    (Original post by Rat_Bag;[url="tel:60221677")
    60221677[/url]]Nuclear, with high levels of investment in RD&D for low carbon energy (focusing on energy storage, transmission, wind and solar for the immediate future, and fusion and tidal for the more distant future) so that reliable and economical low carbon solutions can be deployed. Also utilisation of "smart" technology at all levels, from consumer meters, to appliances, to grids, and urban systems. There will probably have to be a separate solution for transport.



    Judging by what you write in your post, I assume you work as an administrator or maybe a security guard.



    Firstly, Labour were not anti-nuclear (and I am not a supporter of Labour), in fact they were very supportive of the nuclear industry, and got it back on the agenda following the Conservative government's failures to manage the country's energy policy that resulted in 3 planned nuclear power stations being scrapped.

    It was Labour that recognised the uneconomical nature of nuclear energy, and so started the process introducing carbon price floors to make investment in nuclear energy commercially viable.

    Any "frustrations" with the advancement of nuclear energy during the Labour administration were the result of judicial processes which the government has not control over (separation of powers and all that)

    Anyway, it's hilarious that you think it takes 50 years to build a nuclear power station, but then again, what does a security guard who works in the energy industry know.



    Whilst the reduction in carbon emissions targets are part of the EU's push for sustainable energy, Brussels is not going to forcibly jeopardise a country's energy security

    Our energy security is already compromised, why do you think we won't piss Russia off.

    Care to explain. I would agree that bioenergy is worse, however solar, wind, geothermal and hydro are far far less environmentally damaging that fossil fuels.

    Hydroelectric dams cause water pollution even if the UK had the geography for them. Solar I'd give you that but it's expensive and inefficient its Britain after all. We could cover the nation in wind farms and it wouldn't meet British electrical demand and in the process would destroy huge amounts of green spaces and wildlife which is damaging for the environment. If you judging environmental damage by Carbon emitted to the environment then renewables will obviously win but environmental damage covers a lot more than C02 and renewables emit C02 during construction anyway. In fact with the use of new carbon capture technology (something I've personally worked on) I bet fossil fuel stations aren't a million miles away from renewable C02 emissions.


    Well duh, of course climate change isn't a big threat today. It's a threat in the future, and an absolutely huge one. You should really ask for a promotion at your job.

    What's the point of planning for threats in the distant future while ignoring threats we're facing right now

    Then organise into trade unions.



    Hence why engineers and IT professionals command very generous salaries. Because there's a skills shortage.
    happy?
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    (Original post by Rat_Bag;[url="tel:60223513")
    60223513[/url]]That stop with the highly simplistic arguments.



    Oh, so you only know about skills pool of your sector. So what were these broad pronouncements of there not being a skills shortage in this country.

    I never said there wasn't. I said companies grossly over exaggerate it to justify flooding the labour market with migrant workers.

    £40k is still approaching double the average salary. And I would actually contest your figure as far too low an estimation. I know chemical engineers earn far more, with most of my friends going into their first jobs at around £35,000, which is far more than doctors (another skills shortage, indeed the healthcare sector suffers enormous shortages)

    Considering the facts it requires years of study, the work is stressful and tedious to the average person and most of them are working up to 60 hour weeks. Yes I wouldn't say it's an exceptional wage. My field has a genuine skills shortage (and even then companies in my industry play on it to promote immigration instead of putting their hands in their pockets and training more young Brits) and because of it know pipe welders a within the energy industry earning in excess of £100k a year. That is the sort of wages I'd expect to see a company paying before they declare a skills shortage.

    Are you saying 6 people applies for 1 position? Because you know that is a very low ratio, given that gradutes apply for tens of jobs in the final year.

    Or are you saying you got through 6 people in 1 position over the course of a year? Because high turnover of staff is a strong indication of shortages, due to the mobility this causes within the job market.

    That's correct and no they were let go because they weren't particularly good. My company knows each year a few thousand new graduates enter the work force meaning they treat graduates like there ten a penny until they have enough job experience to have the company reliant on them.

    What proportion of the workers were unionised?

    You should be aware that by the 21st century, British trade unions are enfeebled due to diminishing membership (British don't tend to join them the way continental Europeans do)

    Also, you said it yourself it was a recession, the hardest time for collective bargaining, due to the job surplus. Now that we are in better economic times, with higher flows of immigration as a result, union activity is in a strong position.

    And I am not a fan of trade unions, but it was you who complained about the lack of workers' ability to compete individually in the face of a competitive job market, and unionisation is the usual response (and is far more liberal, than introducing protectionist measures to the labour market)

    Labour unions aren't interested in bargaining for the workers. There interested in political power to push their pro European pro labour ideology, I think if a union leader actually came on site he'd probably get lynched. Lindsey oil refinery is a perfect example of how much unions care about British workers. They'd rather we lose out on work while people are been laid off, they wouldn't dream of been seen going against their pro European mantra. To say I've worked on most major engineering sites in the country I've never actually had a union rep ever speak to me that's how disconnected they are to the actual workers.

    No I couldn't, and it's completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand (climate change solutions, immigration and the labour market, and threats from terrorism). But nice try at attempting to deflect the discussion away the one you are obviously loosing.
    My point was that you don't have a clue what your on about when it comes to power engineering. The fact you can't answer me a question first year apprentices are taught about proves my point. I always love it when people say their winning an argument, because your such an impartial judge 😂
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    (Original post by Leeds98)
    happy?
    (Original post by Leeds98)
    Our energy security is already compromised, why do you think we won't piss Russia off.
    Well, you've deflecting from the issue, but never mind.

    Firstly, very little Russian gas reaches the UK. So whilst a hypothetical conflict with Russia would not harm our energy security, it would harm our energy economy (would lead to increase in regional wholesale price of gas).

    Secondly, Russia isn't in a position to just "turn off" gas supplies. The only time it has done it is when countries have been in significant payment arrears for what had been supplied to them.

    Thirdly, diversification of energy supply away from volatile fossil fuel markets is exactly what this country (and the EU) are doing, which you seem to disapprove of.

    (Original post by Leeds98)
    Hydroelectric dams cause water pollution even if the UK had the geography for them.
    It's insignificant, and pales in comparison to the fact they are the cleanest and most efficient potential source of energy.

    (Original post by Leeds98)
    Solar I'd give you that but it's expensive and inefficient its Britain after all.
    With better storage and transmission technology, there's potential for solar to be very effective. But yes, not right now, hence my emphasis on the need for extensive RD&D in these areas

    (Original post by Leeds98)
    We could cover the nation in wind farms and it wouldn't meet British electrical demand and in the process would destroy huge amounts of green spaces and wildlife which is damaging for the environment.
    It doesn't destroy green spaces, they actually sit neatly within them.

    In addition, offshore wind is developing rapidly

    Given you said wind was way way more polluting than fossil fuels, what quantitative measure were you using to made this (bulls**t) claim?

    (Original post by Leeds98)
    If you judging environmental damage by Carbon emitted to the environment then renewables will obviously win but environmental damage covers a lot more than C02 and renewables emit C02 during construction anyway.
    Even taking into account life cycle CO2 emission in the manufacturing, assembly and eventual decommissioning of renewable energy generators, they still win hands down compared to fossil fuels.

    The non-carbon environmental costs are negligible.

    (Original post by Leeds98)
    In fact with the use of new carbon capture technology (something I've personally worked on) I bet fossil fuel stations aren't a million miles away from renewable C02 emissions.
    We'll see what the economics are like when the White Rose CCS demonstrator project at Drax is actually in operation. Even without the lack of solution for long term storage, nor good projections of costs, CCS looks likely to be an expensive option when it matures in 2030, probably more so than the more expensive renewable sources; would be better to stick with nuclear for the baseline energy needs.

    (Original post by Leeds98)
    What's the point of planning for threats in the distant future while ignoring threats we're facing right now
    I'm not saying ignore the threats now. I am saying the threat of the future (climate change) is far greater than the threat of Islamic terrorism now.
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    (Original post by Leeds98)
    Personally I find it hilarious that you think I'm a security guard.

    This guy is like this. He considers himself to be an expert on matters when in reality he is the misinformed one.

    I'm simple? Please you obviously don't have a clue what your on about.

    Again, he accuses people of being simple when in reality he is the simple one. Don't take it personally.
    (Original post by Leeds98)
    My point was that you don't have a clue what your on about when it comes to power engineering. The fact you can't answer me a question first year apprentices are taught about proves my point. I always love it when people say their winning an argument, because your such an impartial judge 😂
    He doesn't know anything about anything. There is a recurring theme on this thread-he accuses others of being simple yet cannot even put forward the most simple of points backed up by any evidence whatsoever. The person he is arguing with on the other hand can post many points and all of them factual.

    His response is to claim that he is winning the argument when even the most simple of people can see that since he hasn't even put forward any points of note so how can he be?

    Don't take it personally. You are a well qualified individual, congratulations. That they can't even answer questions an apprentice could speaks volumes. Namely, it shows how they are most likely talking out of their behind. This is why you should never argue with this guy;
    http://40.media.tumblr.com/b875b2309...1a64o1_500.jpg
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    (Original post by Leeds98)
    I never said there wasn't. I said companies grossly over exaggerate it to justify flooding the labour market with migrant workers.

    Considering the facts it requires years of study, the work is stressful and tedious to the average person and most of them are working up to 60 hour weeks. Yes I wouldn't say it's an exceptional wage. My field has a genuine skills shortage (and even then companies in my industry play on it to promote immigration instead of putting their hands in their pockets and training more young Brits) and because of it know pipe welders a within the energy industry earning in excess of £100k a year. That is the sort of wages I'd expect to see a company paying before they declare a skills shortage.

    That's correct and no they were let go because they weren't particularly good. My company knows each year a few thousand new graduates enter the work force meaning they treat graduates like there ten a penny until they have enough job experience to have the company reliant on them.
    So you allude to the low calibre of British engineering graduates. Possibly due to a lack of clever people going into engineering in the UK, unlike in continental Europe, the Middle East and Asia. An unfortunate situation is that some of the cleverest people in the UK go into career paths leading to the financial sector. This is coupled with the fact that engineering degrees in the UK focus exclusively on the core and applied science, neglecting managerial/business components that are common in engineering degrees overseas. Thus there is a skills shortage of high enough calibre engineering graduates that companies are willing to invest in.

    (Original post by Leeds98)
    Labour unions aren't interested in bargaining for the workers. There interested in political power to push their pro European pro labour ideology
    Care to support this assertion with evidence?

    Since it was trade unions who opposed the UK joining the EEC (precursor to the EC and then EU), and unions have been eurosceptic about Europe ever since (note that Jeremy Corbyn's Euroscepticism is a reflection of Labour's position from the 70s and 80s, and the unions' long standing eurosceptic position)

    (Original post by Leeds98)
    , I think if a union leader actually came on site he'd probably get lynched. Lindsey oil refinery is a perfect example of how much unions care about British workers.
    Explain the unions' failings.

    (Original post by Leeds98)
    They'd rather we lose out on work while people are been laid off, they wouldn't dream of been seen going against their pro European mantra.
    You are aware that two union backed political parties (NO2EU and TUSC) take a eurosceptic platform.

    (Original post by Leeds98)
    To say I've worked on most major engineering sites in the country I've never actually had a union rep ever speak to me that's how disconnected they are to the actual workers.
    Or reflective of unions' relative weakness in 21st century UK due to limited membership. Hence why their collective bargaining in the industrial sector is so limited. As you've claimed yourself, immigration is able to drive down wages due to people being unable to compete on an individual level in the labour market. This doesn't occur to such an effect in continental Europe where trade unions hold much stronger membership. But anyway, you seem to have an ideological opposition to unions, and that's your right; it's just not consistent with your grievances (which is consistent with the general populism and simplistic thinking of eurosceptics and UKIP supporters)

    (Original post by Leeds98)
    My point was that you don't have a clue what your on about when it comes to power engineering. The fact you can't answer me a question first year apprentices are taught about proves my point. I always love it when people say their winning an argument, because your such an impartial judge 😂
    It's hilarious that you think that one requires to know irrelevant details from materials engineering for someone to hold an opinion on climate change and its solutions. You must be extremely desperate to deflect from the fact that your posts are completely riddled with errors and inconsistencies that lay people can point out with ease.

    If you can explain the reason for somebody to need to know the difference between 304 and 316 austenitic stainless [steels] in order to hold an opinion on climate change, we can all stop having such a laugh at this.

    Fact is, you have made error after error after error in your posts, and failed to defend you position on every occasion.
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    (Original post by i<3milkshake)
    He doesn't know anything about anything. There is a recurring theme on this thread-he accuses others of being simple yet cannot even put forward the most simple of points backed up by any evidence whatsoever. The person he is arguing with on the other hand can post many points and all of them factual.
    Oh you're back. I thought having had all your points refuted and been outed as a racist that you would have decided to give it a rest. Sadly no

    (Original post by i<3milkshake)
    His response is to claim that he is winning the argument when even the most simple of people can see that since he hasn't even put forward any points of note so how can he be?
    Are you one of these "most simple of people"? Because it definitely seems so.

    (Original post by i<3milkshake)
    Don't take it personally. You are a well qualified individual, congratulations. That they can't even answer questions an apprentice could speaks volumes. Namely, it shows how they are most likely talking out of their behind. This is why you should never argue with this guy;
    http://40.media.tumblr.com/b875b2309...1a64o1_500.jpg
    Am assuming you posted all this out of a deep sense of insecurity.
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    (Original post by The_Internet;[url="tel:60223277")
    60223277[/url]]We can definitely command higher salaries than 40K. 40K is a great wage but its measly in comparison to what you can get with the right skill set

    Most engineer (design engineer, quality engineer etc) positions I've seen start at around 23k and top out at 40k. Yeah sure those with significant experience, postgraduate degrees, management roles, niche skill sets or if you work for an multinationals can exceed that but again it takes years to acquire them. And anyway I never said graduate engineers can't earn a very good wage, I said there isn't a skills shortage of them especially when there straight out of uni.

    BTW Leeds, I'm Pakistani and I freaking love Leeds (the city) How conflicted do you feel?
    Im not surprised West Yorkshire has had a large Pakistani migrant community since the 60s. Conflicted? I don't feel anything about it why would it bother me that you love Leeds I'm not sure what your trying to imply.
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    (Original post by Rat_Bag)
    Er, this week, in Sweden. You know that school, where the children got shot.



    Ditto to white nationalist terror attacks. Some foiled, some successful,



    Oh, so as part of your job as a security guard (or maybe a cleaner) within the energy industry, you also moonlight and have access to the spending accounts of our intelligence agencies. What a clever boy you are.

    Care to share the breakdown of resource use in counter-terrorism against various grouped threats (Islamic, white-nationalist, Irish-republican, animal rights, hard left). We'd all be really interested to know.



    Because British white nationalist terrorists usually communicate in English, meaning no specialist language is required as part of counter-terrorist operations against them. Same goes for animal rights (and environmentalist) terrorists. Counter-terrorism operations against continental European white nationalist terrorists within the UK is done with the cooperation of European intelligence services who have the language expertise. Irish republican terrorists usually communicate in English, though sometimes done in Gaelic, hence why intelligence services still recruit Gaelic language specialists.

    Which leaves Islamic terrorists, which communicate in a large variety of languages (Urdu, Punjabi, Somali and Pashtun actually being more important than Arabic). Hence why language specialists in these languages are required in out intelligence services.

    You really are quite simple aren't you?
    Parts of this post are really quite ugly and unnecessary.
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    Parts of this post are really quite ugly and unnecessary.
    That just so happens to be my view on what mass immigration of the likes of Rat Bag is doing to London and Birmingham.
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    (Original post by The_Internet)
    We can definitely command higher salaries than 40K. 40K is a great wage but its measly in comparison to what you can get with the right skill set

    BTW Leeds, I'm Pakistani and I freaking love Leeds (the city) How conflicted do you feel?
    Leeds, another lost part of the country.
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    (Original post by i<3milkshake)
    Leeds, another lost part of the country.
    Why so?
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    (Original post by i<3milkshake)
    Read through this thread. Maybe you are different from Rat Bag, but not a single one of my points has been addressed.

    See my post right on the first page (that evidently has a lot of people in agreement) as to my conclusion.
    Lol how reputable are your sources exactly?

    One is an anti Muslim page and one is a wordpress page..
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    (Original post by The_Internet)
    Lol how reputable are your sources exactly?

    One is an anti Muslim page and one is a wordpress page..
    The prison stats aren't reliable? Lol.
    The no go areas are not from offical government reports? Lol.
    The words of the senior MI5 members aren't reliable? Lol.

    The apologists for these crimes against civilised living never can accept the cold hard facts or the government reports, or the warnings that come right from the top of MI5. I could go on. But there is no need; there are two types on this forum-those that see the problem and those that ARE the problem. The only ones questioning the facts and defending the indefensible seem to be those that are the problem.

    As for what I think that problem is-my post about the London Mayoral elections and Labour discuss that.
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    (Original post by i<3milkshake)
    The prison stats aren't reliable? Lol.
    The no go areas are not from offical government reports? Lol.
    The words of the senior MI5 members aren't reliable? Lol.

    The apologists for these crimes against civilised living never can accept the cold hard facts or the government reports, or the warnings that come right from the top of MI5. I could go on. But there is no need; there are two types on this forum-those that see the problem and those that ARE the problem. The only ones questioning the facts and defending the indefensible seem to be those that are the problem.

    As for what I think that problem is-my post about the London Mayoral elections and Labour discuss that.
    Provide those sources then? Instead of a couple of dodgy sources instead? Give us the official reports then and the official quotes..
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    (Original post by The_Internet)
    Provide those sources then? Instead of a couple of dodgy sources instead? Give us the official reports then and the official quotes..
    They have been provided for you many times. The official report in in Swedish so not sure why you want it. However, I have provided you with multiple links from newspapers describing the situation.

    And why don't you try using google?

    As I predicted earlier; they will ask for more and information, disputing the facts, as always. You want to see what the head of MI5 has said? I have told you. Don't believe me? Google it.

    I know you lot like to hide from the truth and generally live in ignorance of cold hard facts so you to are now on my blocked list;
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    (Original post by i<3milkshake)
    They have been provided for you many times. The official report in in Swedish so not sure why you want it. However, I have provided you with multiple links from newspapers describing the situation.

    And why don't you try using google?

    As I predicted earlier; they will ask for more and information, disputing the facts, as always. You want to see what the head of MI5 has said? I have told you. Don't believe me? Google it.

    I know you lot like to hide from the truth and generally live in ignorance of cold hard facts so you to are now on my blocked list;
    If you make the claim, you provide the proof. I only saw your first two links. I could say the world is flat, or the world is ran by giant lizards and if you don't believe me, you can Google it. Doesn't make me right, does it? Nor does it make me look particularly credibly

    You made the claim. You prove it.
 
 
 
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