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    (Original post by Akamega)
    I'm not the type to get into arguments with people concerning religion, but come on just think logically about what you're saying. Stupid theories, like what for example? Evolution? All evolution is a change in allele frequency in a population and you can go in a lab and test it for yourself, and literally observe it happening in front of you. The problem with you is that you've brainwashed from a young age to believe a very particular set of beliefs, and anything outside that is something that is going to lead you astray or lead you to hell. You cannot do any open and logical thinking because you've been brainwashed from such a young age. You're asking him about being 100% sure when you absolutely ZERO empirical evidence of a God existing. I mean c'mon, try and think for yourself for once.
    Like I said believe what you want and I'll believe what I want or is that still wrong ?
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    (Original post by emily Z)
    'highlighting it was unjust'
    Again you don't seem to want to tell me, according to whom?
    Please read the definition of subjective. I don't think you know what it means and yes it applies to logic too.
    Logic, in these matters isn't very subjective and you have failed, yet again, to logically explain why non-muslims are rewarded during life.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Yes, and thereby you have just highlighted another flaw. How can life be a test if Allah already knows the outcome?

    I did, you have not explained it logically.
    We have been given free will, I'm not going to delve into this.
    Instead I will say Allah knows best.

    'Logically'. You can't keep saying that word, in the hope that it makes everything you say correct.
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    (Original post by emily Z)
    We have been given free will, I'm not going to delve into this.
    Instead I will say Allah knows best.

    'Logically'. You can't keep saying that word, in the hope that it makes everything you say correct.
    And again, you have failed to logically explain how this makes sense. Allah knows your actions before you're even born and therefore life cannot be a test as no outcome is in doubt.

    Exactly "Allah knows best" when you can't explain it.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Logic, in these matters isn't very subjective and you have failed, yet again, to logically explain why non-muslims are rewarded during life.
    non-muslims may not necessarily be rewarded in this life, but if a non-muslim is of a good character, ultimately it won't bring him benefit towards the hereafter, only this life.

    However a Muslim can get benefit in both this life and the next.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    And again, you have failed to logically explain how this makes sense. Allah knows your actions before you're even born and therefore life cannot be a test as no outcome is in doubt.

    Exactly "Allah knows best" when you can't explain it.
    Or maybe that is a perfectly reasonable thing for a 'logical' person to say, who realises that he has been made finite, with a limited understanding of the world around him
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    (Original post by emily Z)
    non-muslims may not necessarily be rewarded in this life, but if a non-muslim is of a good character, ultimately it won't bring him benefit towards the hereafter, only this life.

    However a Muslim can get benefit in both this life and the next.
    Which shows glaring use of double standards when it suits you.

    Good thing happens to non-muslim "he's being rewarded in this life, not the next"

    Bad thing happens to non-muslim "he's being punished for rejecting Allah"

    Good thing happens to muslim "he's being rewarded for belief in Allah"

    Bad thing happens to muslim "it's a test from Allah".

    It's not hard to see the convoluted and inconsistent justifications that religious people have invented in an attempt to cover all possible scenarios. You have failed to explain why a non-muslim would ever be rewarded while alive anyway. If God hates them so much that they're going to punished forever after death, there is no logic to being rewarded while alive.

    It is clear to anyone who doesn't have a vested interest in religion, that someone made this up to explain why rejecters of the faith could still lead successful lives.

    And I've asked you already to provide evidence for this hereafter, you have not done so.
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    (Original post by emily Z)
    Or maybe that is a perfectly reasonable thing for a 'logical' person to say, who realises that he has been made finite, with a limited understanding of the world around him
    Ironic you say that because despite this limited understanding you seem to have an awfully clear understanding about what it is God wants and life is about

    Another contradiction right there!
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Which shows glaring use of double standards when it suits you.

    Good thing happens to non-muslim "he's being rewarded in this life, not the next"

    Bad thing happens to non-muslim "he's being punished for rejecting Allah"

    Good thing happens to muslim "he's being rewarded for belief in Allah"

    Bad thing happens to muslim "it's a test from Allah".

    It's not hard to see the convoluted and inconsistent justifications that religious people have invented in an attempt to cover all possible scenarios. You have failed to explain why a non-muslims would ever be rewarded while alive anyway. If God hates them so much that they're going to punished forever after death, there is no logic to being rewarded while alive.

    And I've asked you already to provide evidence for this hereafter, you have not done so.
    Or maybe that is just the truth of the matter, which you don't want to accept.
    God is the most merciful, he gives so many chances to everyone, if you think he hated his own creation so much, then don't you think Allah would have destroyed them instantly? But no this isn't the case, Allah gives so many chances..

    The evidence is the Qur'an.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Which shows glaring use of double standards when it suits you.

    Good thing happens to non-muslim "he's being rewarded in this life, not the next"

    Bad thing happens to non-muslim "he's being punished for rejecting Allah"

    Good thing happens to muslim "he's being rewarded for belief in Allah"

    Bad thing happens to muslim "it's a test from Allah".

    It's not hard to see the convoluted and inconsistent justifications that religious people have invented in an attempt to cover all possible scenarios. You have failed to explain why a non-muslims would ever be rewarded while alive anyway. If God hates them so much that they're going to punished forever after death, there is no logic to being rewarded while alive.

    And I've asked you already to provide evidence for this hereafter, you have not done so.
    Even if there was a true religion which existed (from the perspective of the current irreligious), there would always be something to call 'convenient' or complain about, and even if God decended from the sky, skeptics like you and Qe2 would probably say "this isn't God, it's just a created superior life form that we must research"...
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Ironic you say that because despite this limited understanding you seem to have an awfully clear understanding about what it is God wants and life is about

    Another contradiction right there!
    Lol you are trying way too hard and forgetting that Allah has sent down revelation(the QURAN), in which he has explained many things, however we have not been given knowledge on everything, for reasons Allah knows best.

    Moreover Allah has sent all of his messengers with a clear message
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    (Original post by Salx.x)
    I come from a fairly liberal Muslim family in London. I don't wear Hijab and I don't pray. My family aren't bad people, but they really do have high expectations for me. My mum says everyday that she knows I'll be great and that she prays everyday that I'll be successful. My siblings are more the issue though, they also have high expectations and have recently become more practising. I know I should wait till I'm old enough to move out (I'm still in school), but it's been a few weeks since I've come to realise of my atheism and I'm already going crazy. I have studied Islam in depth and there's many things I believe are wrong and disagree with. I'm going to ask you not to post any Qur'an verses, even though I know someone will. What can I do to prepare myself to tell them I'm atheist? And how should I tell them? I can already see what my life is going to be if I don't leave Islam soon. I'll only carry on living my miserable life, doing things I don't believe and passing those beliefs to my children who'll have to live the miserable life I did. I respect Islam and Muslims, but I really do have strong views about things on the dark side of religion that everyone seems to overlook. I got into a really heated argument once with a friend who said that being gay is a choice because it says that nobody is born gay in the Quran. I have my own morals and I don't need religion to keep me in place.
    Has anyone else ever left Islam, and if so how did your family react?
    As a fellow atheist in a Muslim family I completely understand where you're coming from, sometimes religion just doesn't make sense. For myself my parents are extremely strict and conservative Muslims and so instead of just out right saying it, I slowly implied to my parents how much I don't care about religion and now at least my very religious mother has realised that I don't really care about Islam, but I'm still pushed into it. I think that due to your family's liberal nature, they may be OK with you saying it outright, however I would wait until you are fully independent so if it doesn't go to plan, not too much will happen.

    Good luck
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    (Original post by emily Z)
    Or maybe that is just the truth of the matter, which you don't want to accept.
    Nope, if it were the truth it wouldn't be so inconsistent.

    But if you believe it is, would you mind providing actual evidence it's true?

    God is the most merciful, he gives so many chances to everyone, if you think he hated his own creation so much, then don't you think Allah would have destroyed them instantly? But no this isn't the case, Allah gives so many chances..
    Chances? But Allah knows every second before you're even born and thus knows how your life will end up, the concept of chances cannot exist alongside the notion of an all-knowing God, as it implies he didn't know you would make mistakes.

    The evidence is the Qur'an.
    As mentioned, this isn't evidence. You can't use quotes from the Qur'an to prove the Qur'an's true, that's circular reasoning. Once again, that's like saying Hogwarts exists because the Harry Potter books say so.
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    (Original post by emily Z)
    Lol you are trying way too hard and forgetting that Allah has sent down revelation(the QURAN), in which he has explained many things, however we have not been given knowledge on everything, for reasons Allah knows best.

    Moreover Allah has sent all of his messengers with a clear message
    The message is not clear, if it were why are there so many different sects and interpretations of it?

    And you haven't even explained these basic holes in dogma using sound logic.
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    (Original post by Salx.x)
    I come from a fairly liberal Muslim family in London. I don't wear Hijab and I don't pray. My family aren't bad people, but they really do have high expectations for me. My mum says everyday that she knows I'll be great and that she prays everyday that I'll be successful. My siblings are more the issue though, they also have high expectations and have recently become more practising. I know I should wait till I'm old enough to move out (I'm still in school), but it's been a few weeks since I've come to realise of my atheism and I'm already going crazy. I have studied Islam in depth and there's many things I believe are wrong and disagree with. I'm going to ask you not to post any Qur'an verses, even though I know someone will. What can I do to prepare myself to tell them I'm atheist? And how should I tell them? I can already see what my life is going to be if I don't leave Islam soon. I'll only carry on living my miserable life, doing things I don't believe and passing those beliefs to my children who'll have to live the miserable life I did. I respect Islam and Muslims, but I really do have strong views about things on the dark side of religion that everyone seems to overlook. I got into a really heated argument once with a friend who said that being gay is a choice because it says that nobody is born gay in the Quran. I have my own morals and I don't need religion to keep me in place.
    Has anyone else ever left Islam, and if so how did your family react?
    Just become an atheist when you leave home.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    You needn't waste your time with Planta, he's hardcore jahil, and discussing things with him has not benefited him or anyone for the years he's been here spreading fasad and jahiliyyah
    The Qur'an has told us about the mentality of the Jahil


    And of them there are some who listen to you; but We have set veils on their hearts, so they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they see every one of the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) they will not believe therein; to the point that when they come to you to argue with you, the disbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the men of old."

    And how true the Qur'an is.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    The message is not clear, if it were why are there so many different sects and interpretations of it?

    And you haven't even explained these basic holes in dogma using sound logic.

    This is my last message of today

    IT has also been predicted in Hadith that there will be 73 sects but only 1 will be saved ( those who adhered to the Sunnah and the Quran)

    This seems quite useless, you bring up already solved issues, my you've been debating for so long , I'm surprised you don't know the answer to this yourself??!
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Even if there was a true religion which existed (from the perspective of the current irreligious), there would always be something to call 'convenient' or complain about, and even if God decended from the sky, skeptics like you and Qe2 would probably say "this isn't God, it's just a created superior life form that we must research"...
    For starters, the true religion would not be riddled with mistakes and contradictions.

    A perfect, flawless book from the true God would be water-tight and there would literally not be a single argument that could be formulated against it, considering everything that God is meant to know and be.

    Concerning your second point, if anything that's more a reflection of the weakness of the theist's stance, given that it would thus be impossible to differentiate between God and a higher life form.
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    (Original post by emily Z)
    This is my last message of today

    IT has also been predicted in Hadith that there will be 73 sects but only 1 will be saved ( those who adhered to the Sunnah and the Quran)

    This seems quite useless, you bring up already solved issues, my you've been debating for so long , I'm surprised you don't know the answer to this yourself??!
    Which just debunks your claim that it is a clear message.
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    (Original post by emily Z)
    The Qur'an has told us about the mentality of the Jahil


    And of them there are some who listen to you; but We have set veils on their hearts, so they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they see every one of the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) they will not believe therein; to the point that when they come to you to argue with you, the disbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the men of old."

    And how true the Qur'an is.
    More circular reasoning and a justification invented by a man who knew there would be people who wouldn't believe him.

    This is nothing more than insulting, which is weak substitute for a well reasoned argument.
 
 
 
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