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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Which popular opinion evidence is this silly claim based on? Not the evidence of the recent general election, obviously, which saw popular opinion swing away from the left.
    The three biggest left-wing parties - Labour, the SNP and the Greens - all made significant gains in votes. The problem was that the electoral system interpreted a swing away from the centrist Lib Dems towards the left-wing Greens, Labour and SNP by awarding their seats to the Tories because it's completely and utterly broken, and that the left didn't make big enough gains.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Which popular opinion evidence is this silly claim based on? Not the evidence of the recent general election, obviously, which saw popular opinion swing away from the left.
    The fact that socialist ideas are being more widely picked up and entering the main stream much more. Swinging in favour of and it being the biggest are not the same, if we, say, go from 5% to 25% supporting it we have a swing towards without it being the mainstream.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Which still favour capitalism...

    So, socialism has been established and then it remains for minor elements of a predominately capitalist world. It even had an opportunity to establish itself globally and look what happened. It's getting another chance, and look what's happening, it's not going too well.
    For socalism to work it needs to be global, it's like the red and grey squirrel. The red squirrel (socalism) is much more beautiful then the ugly American grey (capitalism) but the grey kills the red not by out competing but with the disease the greys carry (greed). So if we can wipe out all the greys then the disease is gone and the Reds can flourish.

    (Can I just say how much I love that analogy!!! It started off as a tangent but it's perfect)
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    (Original post by Aph)
    For socalism to work it needs to be global, it's like the red and grey squirrel. The red squirrel (socalism) is much more beautiful then the ugly American grey (capitalism) but the grey kills the red not by out competing but with the disease the greys carry (greed). So if we can wipe out all the greys then the disease is gone and the Reds can flourish.

    (Can I just say how much I love that analogy!!! It started off as a tangent but it's perfect)
    It's not the best analogy I must say. Because capitalism needs socialism in order to function. There's no place on earth where either one of these ideologies has worked on their own. We've seen how globalisation isn't all it's cracked up to be for capitalism, I can't really see why it'd be any different for socialism. There needs to be a balance, so that we can all have the benefits of capitalism but without the detriment. This means redistribution and regulation, and an intertwining of both public and private sectors where they can work together.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    For socalism to work it needs to be global, it's like the red and grey squirrel. The red squirrel (socalism) is much more beautiful then the ugly American grey (capitalism) but the grey kills the red not by out competing but with the disease the greys carry (greed). So if we can wipe out all the greys then the disease is gone and the Reds can flourish.

    (Can I just say how much I love that analogy!!! It started off as a tangent but it's perfect)
    so YOU EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE YOU BELIEVE IN AN IMPOSSIBLE IDEOLOGY
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    The three biggest left-wing parties - Labour, the SNP and the Greens - all made significant gains in votes. The problem was that the electoral system interpreted a swing away from the centrist Lib Dems towards the left-wing Greens, Labour and SNP by awarding their seats to the Tories because it's completely and utterly broken, and that the left didn't make big enough gains.
    Are you referring to the general election in which the two right wing parties increased their combined popular vote from 11.6 million votes to 15.2 million, while the four left wing parties dropped from a combined 16.2 million to 14.4 million?

    Your definition of a swing to the left is a puzzling one.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Swinging in favour of and it being the biggest are not the same, if we, say, go from 5% to 25% supporting it we have a swing towards without it being the mainstream.
    I agree, but see my previous post.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    so YOU EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE YOU BELIEVE IN AN IMPOSSIBLE IDEOLOGY
    It's not impossible.
    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    It's not the best analogy I must say. Because capitalism needs socialism in order to function. There's no place on earth where either one of these ideologies has worked on their own. We've seen how globalisation isn't all it's cracked up to be for capitalism, I can't really see why it'd be any different for socialism. There needs to be a balance, so that we can all have the benefits of capitalism but without the detriment. This means redistribution and regulation, and an intertwining of both public and private sectors where they can work together.
    its fairly good.
    There is no place on earth that pure capitalism in both forms and pure liberal socalism has been practiced.

    Globalisation is leading to people becoming more left wing. Also have you been hacked or just had a massive political ideology change overnight?
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    (Original post by Aph)
    There is no place on earth that pure capitalism in both forms and pure liberal socalism has been practiced.
    Don't you think there's a reason for that?

    Globalisation is leading to people becoming more left wing. Also have you been hacked or just had a massive political ideology change overnight?
    I fail to see the evidence of this. The EU is a corporate puppet. The USA and China are modern imperial powers now. The way to achieve libertarian socialism is through fabianism.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    It's not impossible.
    its fairly good.
    There is no place on earth that pure capitalism in both forms and pure liberal socalism has been practiced.

    Globalisation is leading to people becoming more left wing. Also have you been hacked or just had a massive political ideology change overnight?
    You mean you actually believe a global revolution a plausible future...and to say I thought you were mad before
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Are you referring to the general election in which the two right wing parties increased their combined popular vote from 11.6 million votes to 15.2 million, while the four left wing parties dropped from a combined 16.2 million to 14.4 million?

    Your definition of a swing to the left is a puzzling one.
    Four left wing parties? You honestly want to tell me the Liberal Democrats were left-wing?! They'd just been in government with the Tories for 5 years, it's pretty safe to say their voters were happy for that to continue. If you count the coalition government plus UKIP as right-wing they lost 4.8% between them. Meanwhile the four actual left wing parties of any note at all (Labour, SNP, Green, Plaid) gained 7.4%. Even then polling shows UKIP voters are almost as left-wing as Labour ones on many economic issues - they vote UKIP not due to being right-wing, but because they feel like Labour is too liberal, too out of touch and middle class to stand up for them.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You mean you actually believe a global revolution a plausible future...and to say I thought you were mad before
    I belive that a global socalist society is inevitable.

    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    Don't you think there's a reason for that?



    I fail to see the evidence of this. The EU is a corporate puppet. The USA and China are modern imperial powers now. The way to achieve libertarian socialism is through fabianism.
    You are presenting the fallacy That because something hasn't happened means that it is impossible.

    Look at Wikipedia as an example, experts giving up their time (yes it is experts that do a lot of wiki) with no pay just to improve the knowledge of others. The Internet age is creating a society where people are more willing to help eachother a fundamental socalists idea.
    Fabianism?
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    Four left wing parties? You honestly want to tell me the Liberal Democrats were left-wing?! They'd just been in government with the Tories for 5 years, it's pretty safe to say their voters were happy for that to continue. If you count the coalition government plus UKIP as right-wing they lost 4.8% between them. Meanwhile the four actual left wing parties of any note at all (Labour, SNP, Green, Plaid) gained 7.4%. Even then polling shows UKIP voters are almost as left-wing as Labour ones on many economic issues - they vote UKIP not due to being right-wing, but because they feel like Labour is too liberal, too out of touch and middle class to stand up for them.
    I'm sure you can find plenty of ways to define what are left or right wing parties to suit your agenda, but the LDs don't suddenly leap across the political spectrum just because they chose to seize a once-in-a-century chance to appoint cabinet ministers.

    I suspect ex-Labour UKIP voters vote UKIP to try to reduce immigration, though I'm not sure how you easily square being too liberal with not being on the right.

    Personally, I wouldn't class the Greens as truly on the left; they are just lunatics.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    I belive that a global socalist society is inevitable.


    You are presenting the fallacy That because something hasn't happened means that it is impossible.

    Look at Wikipedia as an example, experts giving up their time (yes it is experts that do a lot of wiki) with no pay just to improve the knowledge of others. The Internet age is creating a society where people are more willing to help eachother a fundamental socalists idea.
    Fabianism?
    IT is inherently against human nature, your argument about experts giving up their time on wikipedia is not dissimilar to saying that anybody who is a teacher because they enjoy teaching is a socialist, which is absurd. Actually, let's make this absolutely absurd, are you calling me a socialist?
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    (Original post by Aph)


    You are presenting the fallacy That because something hasn't happened means that it is impossible.
    Libertarian socialism has been attempted and failed due to external factors, the nearest hope for it now it the syrian free army, pure capitalism hasn't even been tested.

    Look at Wikipedia as an example, experts giving up their time (yes it is experts that do a lot of wiki) with no pay just to improve the knowledge of others. The Internet age is creating a society where people are more willing to help eachother a fundamental socalists idea.
    Fabianism?
    Altruism is a part of human nature and so is competition, both must be harnessed in order to have a fully functioning society.

    Fabianism is the idea that utopia is achieved through minor changes over a long period of time.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    I'm sure you can find plenty of ways to define what are left or right wing parties to suit your agenda, but the LDs don't suddenly leap across the political spectrum just because they chose to seize a once-in-a-century chance to appoint cabinet ministers.

    I suspect ex-Labour UKIP voters vote UKIP to try to reduce immigration, though I'm not sure how you easily square being too liberal with not being on the right.

    Personally, I wouldn't class the Greens as truly on the left; they are just lunatics.
    Hang on. So the Lib Dems - who voted for welfare cuts, privatisations, and tax cuts - are "left wing". But the Greens, who proposed mass nationalisations, more state involvment in the economy, welfare for everyone and a regulated financial market are not. I think you have a rather funny idea of what a left-winger is.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    IT is inherently against human nature, your argument about experts giving up their time on wikipedia is not dissimilar to saying that anybody who is a teacher because they enjoy teaching is a socialist, which is absurd. Actually, let's make this absolutely absurd, are you calling me a socialist?
    Human nature is determined by society. We are social creatures and as such bow to teh pressures of society. We are raised from age 1 to be the best, to compete and to take every advantage you possibly can so I woudl argue that we do not know human nature in its pure form because it is corrupted from day one.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Human nature is determined by society. We are social creatures and as such bow to teh pressures of society. We are raised from age 1 to be the best, to compete and to take every advantage you possibly can so I woudl argue that we do not know human nature in its pure form because it is corrupted from day one.
    I disagree, but right now I cba to pull together the sources I need.

    And you didn't answer the question: are you calling me a socialist?
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I disagree, but right now I cba to pull together the sources I need.

    And you didn't answer the question: are you calling me a socialist?
    No I'm not.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    No I'm not.
    So you don't believe in your dissemination of knowledge argument?
 
 
 
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