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B880 - NHS Operation Funding Bill 2015 watch

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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    Definitely a lefty.

    Bariatric surgery almost certainly saves the NHS money in the long run, as well as most other of the services that have been included. I also somewhat agree with cosmetic surgery though
    FUUUUUU.

    Obese people need education, not medical intervention.
    Cosmetic surgery can help people suffering from extreme bullying etc. and self-esteem problems which may or may not lead to more psychological issues but I got bored and couldn't be bothered to go into that.
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    How much tax would these 600,000 children born through state funded IVF pay? I assume it would be more than £4,000,000.



    What would be the cost to health services from the attempted suicides and counselling that would be required for the transgender community that can't afford to pay for the procedure itself? It would be a whole lot more than £400,000.



    What would be the cost to the NHS of dealing with the higher levels of obesity after removing Bariatric operations?



    It seems that so far it will actually cost the NHS more to remove these services.
    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    You're suggesting that that people have to buy health insurance in order to recieve medical attention. These are people's lives, and people have to pay more under a private system like in the US for less care than they'd receive under a system similar to our own. As I said before, there's nothing to stop anyone buying their own private healthcare here in the UK.



    Which both look like they may be on the way out anyway. The level of opposition there is for both of them is astounding, and even then, if that system was proposed over here there'd be outrage.
    600,000 courses does not mean 600,000 children, and when you remember that they will be using taxpayer money, and the average person is very slightly a drain, those 600,000 would cost about 5bn, including the courses of IVF.

    Neither Medicare nor Medicaid is likely to go any time soon, especially Medicare.

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    (Original post by JoeL1994)
    - Sex Change operations - Ridiculous to take this out of NHS funding, its morally unethical. Unless you're TG I don't think you can really conceptualise what it's like to be born into the wrong body. Gender Dysphoria from the accounts I've read and the people I've spoken to is emotionally horrific and I admire people that are brave enough to do something about it.

    - Aesthetic Plastic Surgery - Would Aesthetic plastic surgery count as continuous surgery after re-constructive surgery, eg. a soldier having aesthetic surgery after being wounded during war?

    - IVF Fertility Treatment - Who are we to stop people becoming parents?

    - All Operations of a Religious nature - Examples?

    - Bariatic operations - I'm split on this one, there are advantages but it should be used sparingly as an exhaustive option.

    - Cosmetic Surgery - Agreed.

    I see what you're trying to achieve and it's nice to see you write a bill, but I have a conscience.
    Why is it so morally objectionable to stop sec change surgery? Does this mean it's morally wrong not to offer surgery to give people a tail, fur and ears of they genuinely believe themselves to be a dog inside?

    What is the distinction between "aesthetic plastic surgery" and "cosmetic surgery", because what you're saying here is that plastic surgery should be simultaneously allowed and disallowed, you have created Schrödinger's surgery.

    Again, when did we abolish adoption?

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    (Original post by JoeL1994)
    FUUUUUU.

    Obese people need education, not medical intervention.
    Cosmetic surgery can help people suffering from extreme bullying etc. and self-esteem problems which may or may not lead to more psychological issues but I got bored and couldn't be bothered to go into that.
    People need education to stop them becoming obese, obese people need medical intervention.

    I agree with you on cosmetic surgery but the causes of the trauma lie more with external factors rather than the aesthetic nature of the person. These external factors need dealing with as much as the person suffering needs help, I hope that the future Health secretary will look into this alongside the future minister for culture.
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    But the costing is inadequate when you say that cutting these services will save money. These services, it could be argued, actually save the NHS money in the cases of sex changes and Bariatric surgery, and IVF actually brings in more revenue than it costs the NHS to perform it.
    Any money brought in by IVF I'd just like with all government spending: taxation on the labour and materials required and is necessarily less than what is spent.

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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    People need education to stop them becoming obese, obese people need medical intervention.

    I agree with you on cosmetic surgery but the causes of the trauma lie more with external factors rather than the aesthetic nature of the person. These external factors need dealing with as much as the person suffering needs help, I hope that the future Health secretary will look into this alongside the future minister for culture.
    You do know there are ways of losing weight outside of surgery...

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You do know there are ways of losing weight outside of surgery...

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    Yes of course.
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    Yes of course.
    So your statement is false by your own admission

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Any money brought in by IVF I'd just like with all government spending: taxation on the labour and materials required and is necessarily less than what is spent.

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    If IVF costs the NHS £5bn, which it doesn't. How much revenure will at least 600,000 people bring into the treasury during their lifetimes?
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    So your statement is false by your own admission

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    I don't see how you can to that conclusion. Yes there are ways of losing weight outside of surgery but that doesn't mean Bariatric surgery doesn't save the NHS money in the long run
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    If IVF costs the NHS £5bn, which it doesn't. How much revenure will at least 600,000 people bring into the treasury during their lifetimes?
    Back of the stamp calculation, about £800,000 each
    Do you know about how much they will sap out of the treasury in the same time? About £800,000 each

    So what is the net contribution, hmmm, nothing.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Back of the stamp calculation, about £800,000 each
    Do you know about how much they will sap out of the treasury in the same time? About £800,000 each

    So what is the net contribution, hmmm, nothing.

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    Yes, but how many of them will be inventors, artists, job creators? It may well be more than £800,000 each.
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    Yes, but how many of them will be inventors, artists, job creators? It may well be more than £800,000 each.
    How many are going to be shelf stackers, unemployed, or other unskilled labourers, putting far less than £800,000 in and taking far more than £800,000 out?

    It's also worth noting that there are far fewer than 600,000 born through IVF, if there were that many then the majority are born via IVF.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    How many are going to be shelf stackers, unemployed, or other unskilled labourers, putting far less than £800,000 in and taking far more than £800,000 out?

    It's also worth noting that there are far fewer than 600,000 born through IVF, if there were that many then the majority are born via IVF.

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    Then where did this 600,000 figure come from?
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Why is it so morally objectionable to stop sec change surgery? Does this mean it's morally wrong not to offer surgery to give people a tail, fur and ears of they genuinely believe themselves to be a dog inside?

    What is the distinction between "aesthetic plastic surgery" and "cosmetic surgery", because what you're saying here is that plastic surgery should be simultaneously allowed and disallowed, you have created Schrödinger's surgery.

    Again, when did we abolish adoption?

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    Mental capacity.

    Aesthetic plastic surgery could be part of a continuous process of reconstruction, I thought that was clear enough.

    "Sorry, you're infertile - we have a process that can give you or a child but we're not going to do that, adopt instead. Bu-bye".
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    (Original post by Ali1302)
    UK hospitals lack modern equipment such as MRI scanners, have longer surgery waiting times, low pay for doctors and nurses causing low morale among healthcare professionals, hospitals expected to be shut down due to budget cuts: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...d-deficit-2020

    Free healthcare isn't sustainable and privatisation is inevitable one way or another. Don't be under any illusion that the NHS is anyway comparable in terms of quality to private healthcare providers in the developed world.
    It's sustainable if society accepts long term attitudes towards affordability. If we invested short term in reducing obesity, tooth decay, alcoholism etc. Along the public health angle, we would save in the long term. The problem is that investment must match population growth, but governments make out like the norm is to see funding stay the same. Political posturing and a disturbing number of MPs with shares in private health firms always suspicious.

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    (Original post by Ali1302)
    UK hospitals lack modern equipment such as MRI scanners, have longer surgery waiting times, low pay for doctors and nurses causing low morale among healthcare professionals, hospitals expected to be shut down due to budget cuts: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...d-deficit-2020

    Free healthcare isn't sustainable and privatisation is inevitable one way or another. Don't be under any illusion that the NHS is anyway comparable in terms of quality to private healthcare providers in the developed world.
    Except in terms of value for money, where private services gladly charge for fancy pillows and unnecessary exams.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You're declaring that the other systems would not be implemented for being too socialist, which is trivially false, because if that were so there would be neither Medicare nor Medicaid, definitely wouldn't be Medicaid.

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    You now that Medicare is socially exclusive right? As most receivers are over the age of 65 and their are certain requirements for eligibility. This is also true for Medicaid that only applies to very low income families and individuals and the government only pays for 50% of the program. The us of course has to get rid of these socialist programs and find alternatives to providing healthcare without increasing healthcare costs. The us needs healthcare reform in this part but overall the us is largely a free private healthcare system. The issue here is that for Medicare and Medicaid the people should have complete control of their healthcare not the government. There is also an issue of sustainability of such programs as Medicare is projected to go bankrupt in 9 years and would require higher amounts of tax money with lower quality healthcare provided.
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    I don't understand why the most fundamental part of the bill, the operations being culled, is in the notes section rather than the body of the bill itself.

    I don't agree with everything on the list particularly blanket banning all sex change operations and IVF treatment. For the former, your personal views are giving you poor judgement - it would be incredibly detrimental to deny people the right to a sex change on the NHS if they manage to jump through all the current hurdles that ensure they aren't handed out with a blaze fashion. A couple should not be denied the right to have children, IVF is the only hope for many couples, and excluding them is bizarre and wholly unnecessary.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You do know there are ways of losing weight outside of surgery...

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    And if they worked then we wouldn't have heard of surgery.

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