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The idea that the bikini is just as much a form of oppression as the burqa is crap watch

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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    You've cited an interpretation based on someone's understanding of a historical artifact, which is also a position that you personally believe in.

    Own the interpretation that you have advocated.



    Are we dealing with historical artifacts or speculation? Judging from your post, it seems to be the latter.

    If that is the kind of discussion that you feel you are comfortable with, then I can also start speculating, hypothesizing and work out the probabilities.



    You have not provided historical evidence.

    You have provided an interpretation of historical evidence.

    You claim that this interpretation is correct by resorting to logical fallacies, specifically argumentum ad populum ("widely accepted" and argumentum ad veracundiam ("historical scholars".



    It is an opinion derived from an interpretation of a historical artifact. Opinions can be wrong, and many are.



    And if she doesn't marry? Who does her body belong to? Can she then strip off in front of all the other women?



    To engage in such a thought experiment would be ludicrous so as to be devoid of all semblance of reality rendering any discussion meaningless.

    I don't get why you keep on constantly bleating on about Islam not having "invented the veil". I, and I'm sure 99% of all people, would be of the same view.



    I, unlike you, am exercising critical thought. In particular, applying to your dogmatic approach to the issue of the veil within Assyrian society.

    I'm sure that you would accept critical thought as a vital and valid component in the development of arguments, casting aside views which have generally been accepted for several millenia.



    I strongly urge you to exercise critical thought, rational analysis and logical processes so that you may distinguish between a historical artifact, and the interpretation of Person X's understanding of the contents of the historical artifact, no matter how prevalent or preeminent the view expressed is.

    I urge that you formulate your own arguments and rely on your own intellect to argue the case that is before you and not attack arguments which have not been made by anyone previously, and were denied to have been made previously.



    That is, of course, your prerogative.
    I'm not going to continue this discussion because I'm not getting anything out of it. My mind won't change, as I have historical evidence and the backing of learned scholars on my side, while your view is conjecture entirely invented by yourself and based on no knowledge of the subject matter. Obviously any intelligent person would listen to the evidence I've provided with interest and back down when they realise that they have no evidence that contradicts it, but as they say, you can lead a horse to water...
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    I think the point is that people have visualised women to be something they are not. Every single day we see women in bikinis advertising our products. There are car sales rooms with half naked women on their signs because it attracts people. That is a form of oppression, when women are being used like bait to draw people in.

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    (Original post by KingBradly;[url="tel:60467939")
    60467939[/url]]So you want to wear a symbol of oppression? I mean it's up to you, I wouldn't stop you. Just seems very strange.
    Why is that strange? Its suppose to show modesty not oppression[/QUOTE]
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    (Original post by SHBKhan)
    I think the point is that people have visualised women to be something they are not. Every single day we see women in bikinis advertising our products. There are car sales rooms with half naked women on their signs because it attracts people. That is a form of oppression, when women are being used like bait to draw people in.

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    I have to say I see all this kind of stuff far less than people seem to think it exists. I can't say I've ever seen a car sale room with that kind of advertising.

    I'm also unsure how it would qualify as "oppression".
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    (Original post by Tasnimaaktar)
    Why is that strange? Its suppose to show modesty not oppression
    [/QUOTE]

    The concept that it is modest is oppressive, and the concept that a women should be modest is even more oppressive.
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    The burqa (or any other form of veil) is just a religious tradition, much like the Pope's daft hat.
    Let them wear it if they want, it's honestly none of your business what they decide to do.
    Don't go round saying things are oppressive and a symbol of male superiority when they aren't.
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    (Original post by Riverstar)
    The burqa (or any other form of veil) is just a religious tradition, much like the Pope's daft hat.
    Let them wear it if they want, it's honestly none of your business what they decide to do.
    Don't go round saying things are oppressive and a symbol of male superiority when they aren't.
    It is indeed none of our business to prevent people from wearing the religious outfit they want.
    Besides:


    Religious clothes.


    Religious clothes.
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    (Original post by Riverstar)
    The burqa (or any other form of veil) is just a religious tradition, much like the Pope's daft hat.
    Let them wear it if they want, it's honestly none of your business what they decide to do.
    Don't go round saying things are oppressive and a symbol of male superiority when they aren't.
    Is this what you consider an argument?
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    Just allow women to wear what they want, then you're not oppressing them. Not allowing a woman to dress "islamically" is surely no different to Saudi Arabia forcing all women to wear the burqa. (Or being taunted for not wearing no one)
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    This thread really makes me think! Thanks
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Is this what you consider an argument?
    By saying that the burqa is bad you're oppressing them! It's a symbol of their religion, like wearing a Christian cross necklace. If you don't like it, you don't wear it. Don't say that it's bad for these women to wear whatever they like
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    I'm not going to continue this discussion because I'm not getting anything out of it. My mind won't change, as I have historical evidence and the backing of learned scholars on my side, while your view is conjecture entirely invented by yourself and based on no knowledge of the subject matter. Obviously any intelligent person would listen to the evidence I've provided with interest and back down when they realise that they have no evidence that contradicts it, but as they say, you can lead a horse to water...
    I've listened to your "evidence" and I found it lacking. Your wish is for me to provide contrary evidence of something that I have not claimed just because you provided evidence of a supposed claim that no one objects to.

    The only claim that you have evidence for is that Assyrian society had the concept of a veil, a claim that no one has made here. In fact, not even Muslims would make this ludicrous claim.

    So yes, the only evidence that you have provided here is the fact that Assyrian society had the concept of a veil, a fact that no one denies and no one would even think of denying.


    If you look at my interactions with you, it necessitates you to provide evidence for your assertions that the veil is an imposition on women.

    That is why, and I constantly reiterated this point, that it is your interpretation that it (the veil) is an imposition. I don't care much for the source from which you derived this opinion from save for the fact that you can't refer to them without invoking some kind of logical fallacy.


    I hope you understand the difference between simply providing evidence of a claim (and I stress that it is a claim that no one would ever dream of making) and presenting evidence of your interpretation, the latter requiring you to exercise critical thought, as I have urged you to do on numerous occasions.


    If you wish to congratulate yourself on your cognitive dissonance, then feel free to give yourself a pat on the back for providing evidence, namely that Assyrian society had the concept of a veil, a claim that no-one objects to.
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    I've listened to your "evidence" and I found it lacking. Your wish is for me to provide contrary evidence of something that I have not claimed just because you provided evidence of a supposed claim that no one objects to.

    The only claim that you have evidence for is that Assyrian society had the concept of a veil, a claim that no one has made here. In fact, not even Muslims would make this ludicrous claim.

    So yes, the only evidence that you have provided here is the fact that Assyrian society had the concept of a veil, a fact that no one denies and no one would even think of denying.


    If you look at my interactions with you, it necessitates you to provide evidence for your assertions that the veil is an imposition on women.

    That is why, and I constantly reiterated this point, that it is your interpretation that it (the veil) is an imposition. I don't care much for the source from which you derived this opinion from save for the fact that you can't refer to them without invoking some kind of logical fallacy.


    I hope you understand the difference between simply providing evidence of a claim (and I stress that it is a claim that no one would ever dream of making) and presenting evidence of your interpretation, the latter requiring you to exercise critical thought, as I have urged you to do on numerous occasions.


    If you wish to congratulate yourself on your cognitive dissonance, then feel free to give yourself a pat on the back for providing evidence, namely that Assyrian society had the concept of a veil, a claim that no-one objects to.
    Something Muslims always do with their religion.
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    (Original post by Riverstar)
    By saying that the burqa is bad you're oppressing them! It's a symbol of their religion, like wearing a Christian cross necklace. If you don't like it, you don't wear it. Don't say that it's bad for these women to wear whatever they like
    Nowhere in the Koran it is written that women should wear a burqa. It is an interpretation made by Wahhabi Muslims.

    Also, you're bold to compare a necklace with a full veil.
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    (Original post by Lord Samosa)
    Just allow women to wear what they want, then you're not oppressing them. Not allowing a woman to dress "islamically" is surely no different to Saudi Arabia forcing all women to wear the burqa. (Or being taunted for not wearing no one)
    Do you really think someone would want to wear a burqa? If so, please explain to me why no man wants to wear a burqa? They don't want to be chaste?
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    (Original post by Josb)
    Do you really think someone would want to wear a burqa? If so, please explain to me why no man wants to wear a burqa? They don't want to be chaste?
    How do you know that men don't wear burqas, you cant see through the slot to tell
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    (Original post by dimmyigu)
    How do you know that men don't wear burqas, you cant see through the slot to tell
    lol
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    Its interesting how the verses relating to the 'islamic veil' only tell women to draw the head cover (khamr) that they were already wearing over their chests. Everything else regarding hijab is addressed to both men and women. Covering the head in islam is mustahab (recommended) for both men and women, especially in prayer. Neither the headscarf nor the veil, as far as compulsion goes, have a quranic mandate. Both men and women are advised to avert their eyes from the physical attractiveness of others and to cover their physical adornments 'except that of which is apparent'.
    Come on, guys. If you see a woman with her hair out and get an erection, you're not normal.
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    It's their choice to wear it or not. I don't know why you all are getting all riled up about it. Of course there are some women who are oppressed and forced to wear it, however there are also those who choose to wear it. You can say nothing about how 'free' the woman is by the clothes she wears. Every Muslim woman is an individual; there's some people who only wear the hijaab, some people who wear the burqa and some who do not wear anything of the sort.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    Do you really think someone would want to wear a burqa? If so, please explain to me why no man wants to wear a burqa? They don't want to be chaste?
    I'm not a fan of the burqa in today's society either. But I just don't see why we should criticising a woman for wearing one if she chooses to. (Bear in mind I understand and agree the argument against wearing the burqa, but the hijab for example I don't see what the fuss is about if a woman wears one)
 
 
 
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