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    (Original post by _Bright Eyes)
    Specific problems need specific solutions. Saying "I'm an egalitarian and all people should be treated equally" is fine and great, but means nothing without identifying which groups are currently not being treated equally to the others and bringing them up to the same level as everybody else. Feminism is an attempt to fix the gap where males are treated better than females, by bringing females up to the same level as males, in the aspects where they are behind.

    You can say you're an egalitarian, which in my mind automatically also makes you a feminist, I just don't see why you don't call yourself a feminist if you want equality.. It's similar to saying you're for black-rights, or pro-homosexual rights - championing the cause of the underprivileged gets more directly to the issues we need to solve, while claiming to be an egalitarian is bit broad and disconnected from the actual issues we need to address. It's all a little bit semantic, though.

    Everyone should be given the same opportunities and not discriminated against, yes, this would be an ideal world. But to get to this world, we currently need to focus our attention on helping those that are being discriminated against the most. And groups in this situation need extra help to get over the hurdles society has placed on them. That's where movements like feminism are helpful. An analogy would be slavery of black people - an egalitarian view here might try to treat the black slaves as good as their masters are being treated, give them good food, warm beds, and so on, which is all very good, but it takes a shift in perspective to realise that they should not be slaves in the first place, and pro-black rights movements helped with this.
    Feminism is hardly doing any good for men.
    Thanks to sleepysnooze, I shall remind you of some issues which might be more important than bikini models, air conditioning and barbie dolls.

    women have a lower retirement age,
    women get more parental leave time,
    women get higher medical and mental care spent on them,
    women get more domestic violence resources even though statistics show that domestic violence isn't a gendered issue, 53% if the victims, are men.
    Women go to jail 5% of the time that men do for the same crimes,
    women usually always get custody of children regardless of the circumstances,
    women can rape a man without the law recognising it,
    women can be on gender quotas but men can't be,
    women can legally force a man into child support payments regardless of a withdrawal of consent but men can't towards women,
    women can beat a man up but a man can barely even get the allowance of self-defence against a woman,
    women (girls) have the right to full genital integrity but boys don't,
    men outnumber women regarding suicides by a substantial degree and men are injured/die on the job to the same or an even worse extent.

    dont talk rubbish.
    what rights do women not have in comparison? they don't have the right to show their boobs in public? oh how oppressed you women are compared to men. Women don't have the right to go into a trench and shoot terrorists/enemy soldiers? oh christ, what a patriarchy!
    Other than these two, which are insignificant, NAME ONE right that women don't have compared to men. ONE.
    you feminists really have no clue, do you? you don't even know what you want. if you want equality, then you'll get less rights (because you have more than men at the moment!)

    And on the pay gap, it's a pay gap. Not a wage gap.It's illegal to solve it, I'm afraid. This is because women are paid equal to or more than men for the same job.

    So why then, do they get paid less?
    .They work 37.5 hours compared to 42 for men. (almost 11% less work)
    .They take more holiday than men, reducing experience. (Not including maternity leave)
    .They do not take risks like men, women are as successful as men in getting promoted, if they ask, but they aren't.

    So is the pay gap a problem? No, it's just that women don't have the time to work as hard as men do.
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    (Original post by balanced)
    Feminism is hardly doing any good for men.
    Thanks to sleepysnooze, I shall remind you of some issues which might be more important than bikini models, air conditioning and barbie dolls.

    women have a lower retirement age,
    women get more parental leave time,
    women get higher medical and mental care spent on them,
    women get more domestic violence resources even though statistics show that domestic violence isn't a gendered issue, 53% if the victims, are men.
    Women go to jail 5% of the time that men do for the same crimes,
    women usually always get custody of children regardless of the circumstances,
    women can rape a man without the law recognising it,
    women can be on gender quotas but men can't be,
    women can legally force a man into child support payments regardless of a withdrawal of consent but men can't towards women,
    women can beat a man up but a man can barely even get the allowance of self-defence against a woman,
    women (girls) have the right to full genital integrity but boys don't,
    men outnumber women regarding suicides by a substantial degree and men are injured/die on the job to the same or an even worse extent.

    dont talk rubbish.
    what rights do women not have in comparison? they don't have the right to show their boobs in public? oh how oppressed you women are compared to men. Women don't have the right to go into a trench and shoot terrorists/enemy soldiers? oh christ, what a patriarchy!
    Other than these two, which are insignificant, NAME ONE right that women don't have compared to men. ONE.
    you feminists really have no clue, do you? you don't even know what you want. if you want equality, then you'll get less rights (because you have more than men at the moment!)

    And on the pay gap, it's a pay gap. Not a wage gap.It's illegal to solve it, I'm afraid. This is because women are paid equal to or more than men for the same job.

    So why then, do they get paid less?
    .They work 37.5 hours compared to 42 for men. (almost 11% less work)
    .They take more holiday than men, reducing experience. (Not including maternity leave)
    .They do not take risks like men, women are as successful as men in getting promoted, if they ask, but they aren't.

    So is the pay gap a problem? No, it's just that women don't have the time to work as hard as men do.
    I know this is a late reply to a relatively dead thread, but it feels wrong to give someone like you the last word. So I'm going to try to show you were you've gone wrong in your thinking. I know it doesn't matter; I know you probably won't change your mind, but it seems important to always engage in the argument. You've referred to a semantic argument about the name of the movement "feminism". It's a common misunderstanding that this name is somehow excluding men or against men in some way, but, as another poster has already pointed out, this is because feminists speak out for the rights of a HISTORICALLY underprivileged group. Personally, I think all egalitarians are feminists and vice versa, or at least it should be, but feminist is more of a specific term that refers to a specific type of discrimination. Is it such a problem that this group goes under the clear and easily understandable name of feminism? Feminists want gender equality, not female domination. I assume that you're not going to argue against the historical sexism ingrained in our society. Your point is that this is flipped around in modern society. I disagree. However, you are right with several of your examples of discrimination against males. This is a problem, and it is one that feminists do also address. Additionally, the example of male rape raises an interesting point: the dominance in our society of gender images that we are made to conform to. This is something feminists object strongly too, and it harms both genders. Actually, sexism hurts both genders. Both men and women's bodies are objectified in adverts and the media. Women are meant to be weak and submissive. Equally, men are not allowed to be weak. They are not allowed the same level of emotionality as women, just as women are labelled as cold and heartless much quicker than a man would. I also think you are wrong if you believe that women are not still harshly discriminated against. This is true the higher you progress in society. In 2011 the Forced Marriage Unit advised over 1,450 people related to a possible forced marriage, 78% of whom were women and girls. Almost 1 in 3 girls have experienced unwanted sexual touching at school. The effects of violence against women are negative for all in society: The economic cost to society and the emotional cost to victims of violence against women and girls is estimated to exceed £40 billion a year in the UK. This includes costs to health and social services, the criminal justice system, lost economic outputs and monetary proxies for human and emotional costs. Attitudes towards such violence are also problematic: 36% of people believe that a woman should be held wholly or partly responsible for being sexually assaulted or raped if she was drunk and 26% believe this if she was in public wearing sexy or revealing clothes. A pay gap still exists: The full time gender pay gap is 10% , and the average part-time pay gap is 34.5%.It is estimated that for each year a mother is absent from the workplace her future wages will reduce by 5%. Women make up only 17% board directors of FTSE 100 companies. Up to 30,000 women are sacked each year simply for being pregnant and each year an estimated 440,000 women lose out on pay or promotion as a result of pregnancy. It is estimated that the UK would gain in up to £23 billion (the equivalent to 2% of GDP) by better harnessing women’s skills in employment. Only 1 in 4 MPs is a woman and women from minority ethnic groups make up only 1.2% of MPs yet comprise 4% of the UK population. Women are outnumbered 5 to1 by men in the cabinet only 16% of senior ministerial posts are held by women. At the current rate of progress we would have to wait more than 150 years before seeing an equal number of women and men elected to English local councils. (These statistics may still be for the last parliamentary session. Things have gotten slightly better, but not much)Just 23% of reporters on national daily newspapers in the UK are women with only 1 female editor of a national daily.Only 24% of news subjects (the people in the news) across global news channels are female and only 6% of stories highlight issues of gender equality or inequality. The Equalities and Human Rights Commission estimates it will take 70 years at the current rate of progress to see an equal number of female and male directors of FTSE 100 companies.A funny and informative clip about the pay gap in the us can be found on YouTube by the always-brilliant John Oliver. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PsB1e-1BB4YIt addresses many of the issues involved and the fallacies in the common arguments people like you have made. Many other resources are available online that you can use to educate yourself on this subject. Overall, I hope you understand that feminists like me do understand the problems men face and try to address them, but it is ridiculous to think that men face all, or even the majority, of the gender discrimination. The op expressed an interest in a career in the film industry, and I wish her all the best in her ambitions. It is, however, a perfect example of an industry full of sexism and gender stereotypes, with a high disparity between male and female directors, screenwriters, producers, composers, etc. This is a problem we must all address, together, for everyone's good, and I sincerely hope I can change your opinions. Good day.
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    (Original post by tyling_roses)
    I know this is a late reply to a relatively dead thread, but it feels wrong to give someone like you the last word. So I'm going to try to show you were you've gone wrong in your thinking. I know it doesn't matter; I know you probably won't change your mind, but it seems important to always engage in the argument. You've referred to a semantic argument about the name of the movement "feminism". It's a common misunderstanding that this name is somehow excluding men or against men in some way, but, as another poster has already pointed out, this is because feminists speak out for the rights of a HISTORICALLY underprivileged group. Personally, I think all egalitarians are feminists and vice versa, or at least it should be, but feminist is more of a specific term that refers to a specific type of discrimination. Is it such a problem that this group goes under the clear and easily understandable name of feminism? Feminists want gender equality, not female domination. I assume that you're not going to argue against the historical sexism ingrained in our society. Your point is that this is flipped around in modern society. I disagree. However, you are right with several of your examples of discrimination against males. This is a problem, and it is one that feminists do also address. Additionally, the example of male rape raises an interesting point: the dominance in our society of gender images that we are made to conform to. This is something feminists object strongly too, and it harms both genders. Actually, sexism hurts both genders. Both men and women's bodies are objectified in adverts and the media. Women are meant to be weak and submissive. Equally, men are not allowed to be weak. They are not allowed the same level of emotionality as women, just as women are labelled as cold and heartless much quicker than a man would. I also think you are wrong if you believe that women are not still harshly discriminated against. This is true the higher you progress in society. In 2011 the Forced Marriage Unit advised over 1,450 people related to a possible forced marriage, 78% of whom were women and girls. Almost 1 in 3 girls have experienced unwanted sexual touching at school. The effects of violence against women are negative for all in society: The economic cost to society and the emotional cost to victims of violence against women and girls is estimated to exceed £40 billion a year in the UK. This includes costs to health and social services, the criminal justice system, lost economic outputs and monetary proxies for human and emotional costs. Attitudes towards such violence are also problematic: 36% of people believe that a woman should be held wholly or partly responsible for being sexually assaulted or raped if she was drunk and 26% believe this if she was in public wearing sexy or revealing clothes. A pay gap still exists: The full time gender pay gap is 10% , and the average part-time pay gap is 34.5%.It is estimated that for each year a mother is absent from the workplace her future wages will reduce by 5%. Women make up only 17% board directors of FTSE 100 companies. Up to 30,000 women are sacked each year simply for being pregnant and each year an estimated 440,000 women lose out on pay or promotion as a result of pregnancy. It is estimated that the UK would gain in up to £23 billion (the equivalent to 2% of GDP) by better harnessing women’s skills in employment. Only 1 in 4 MPs is a woman and women from minority ethnic groups make up only 1.2% of MPs yet comprise 4% of the UK population. Women are outnumbered 5 to1 by men in the cabinet only 16% of senior ministerial posts are held by women. At the current rate of progress we would have to wait more than 150 years before seeing an equal number of women and men elected to English local councils. (These statistics may still be for the last parliamentary session. Things have gotten slightly better, but not much)Just 23% of reporters on national daily newspapers in the UK are women with only 1 female editor of a national daily.Only 24% of news subjects (the people in the news) across global news channels are female and only 6% of stories highlight issues of gender equality or inequality. The Equalities and Human Rights Commission estimates it will take 70 years at the current rate of progress to see an equal number of female and male directors of FTSE 100 companies.A funny and informative clip about the pay gap in the us can be found on YouTube by the always-brilliant John Oliver. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PsB1e-1BB4YIt addresses many of the issues involved and the fallacies in the common arguments people like you have made. Many other resources are available online that you can use to educate yourself on this subject. Overall, I hope you understand that feminists like me do understand the problems men face and try to address them, but it is ridiculous to think that men face all, or even the majority, of the gender discrimination. The op expressed an interest in a career in the film industry, and I wish her all the best in her ambitions. It is, however, a perfect example of an industry full of sexism and gender stereotypes, with a high disparity between male and female directors, screenwriters, producers, composers, etc. This is a problem we must all address, together, for everyone's good, and I sincerely hope I can change your opinions. Good day.
    THIS! I'd rep you 200 times if I could lmao I didn't want to leave that post as the last word either, but I was just so tired and there was so many things wrong with it that I couldn't be bothered typing out a massive response. so props to you.
    anyway I think there's so many huge misunderstandings surrounding feminism. it especially gets me when someone mentions a problem that women face and then people are like "but men have problems too!!!" yes no one said men don't have problems lol we're just trying to acknowledge injustices imposed on mainly women. besides, feminism absolutely understands, acknowledges and supports male victims so I don't know what the confusion is about tbh.
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    (Original post by tyling_roses)
    I know this is a late reply to a relatively dead thread, but it feels wrong to give someone like you the last word. So I'm going to try to show you were you've gone wrong in your thinking. I know it doesn't matter; I know you probably won't change your mind, but it seems important to always engage in the argument. You've referred to a semantic argument about the name of the movement "feminism". It's a common misunderstanding that this name is somehow excluding men or against men in some way, but, as another poster has already pointed out, this is because feminists speak out for the rights of a HISTORICALLY underprivileged group. Personally, I think all egalitarians are feminists and vice versa, or at least it should be, but feminist is more of a specific term that refers to a specific type of discrimination. Is it such a problem that this group goes under the clear and easily understandable name of feminism? Feminists want gender equality, not female domination. I assume that you're not going to argue against the historical sexism ingrained in our society. Your point is that this is flipped around in modern society. I disagree. However, you are right with several of your examples of discrimination against males. This is a problem, and it is one that feminists do also address. Additionally, the example of male rape raises an interesting point: the dominance in our society of gender images that we are made to conform to. This is something feminists object strongly too, and it harms both genders. Actually, sexism hurts both genders. Both men and women's bodies are objectified in adverts and the media. Women are meant to be weak and submissive. Equally, men are not allowed to be weak. They are not allowed the same level of emotionality as women, just as women are labelled as cold and heartless much quicker than a man would. I also think you are wrong if you believe that women are not still harshly discriminated against. This is true the higher you progress in society. In 2011 the Forced Marriage Unit advised over 1,450 people related to a possible forced marriage, 78% of whom were women and girls. Almost 1 in 3 girls have experienced unwanted sexual touching at school. The effects of violence against women are negative for all in society: The economic cost to society and the emotional cost to victims of violence against women and girls is estimated to exceed £40 billion a year in the UK. This includes costs to health and social services, the criminal justice system, lost economic outputs and monetary proxies for human and emotional costs. Attitudes towards such violence are also problematic: 36% of people believe that a woman should be held wholly or partly responsible for being sexually assaulted or raped if she was drunk and 26% believe this if she was in public wearing sexy or revealing clothes. A pay gap still exists: The full time gender pay gap is 10% , and the average part-time pay gap is 34.5%.It is estimated that for each year a mother is absent from the workplace her future wages will reduce by 5%. Women make up only 17% board directors of FTSE 100 companies. Up to 30,000 women are sacked each year simply for being pregnant and each year an estimated 440,000 women lose out on pay or promotion as a result of pregnancy. It is estimated that the UK would gain in up to £23 billion (the equivalent to 2% of GDP) by better harnessing women’s skills in employment. Only 1 in 4 MPs is a woman and women from minority ethnic groups make up only 1.2% of MPs yet comprise 4% of the UK population. Women are outnumbered 5 to1 by men in the cabinet only 16% of senior ministerial posts are held by women. At the current rate of progress we would have to wait more than 150 years before seeing an equal number of women and men elected to English local councils. (These statistics may still be for the last parliamentary session. Things have gotten slightly better, but not much)Just 23% of reporters on national daily newspapers in the UK are women with only 1 female editor of a national daily.Only 24% of news subjects (the people in the news) across global news channels are female and only 6% of stories highlight issues of gender equality or inequality. The Equalities and Human Rights Commission estimates it will take 70 years at the current rate of progress to see an equal number of female and male directors of FTSE 100 companies.A funny and informative clip about the pay gap in the us can be found on YouTube by the always-brilliant John Oliver. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PsB1e-1BB4YIt addresses many of the issues involved and the fallacies in the common arguments people like you have made. Many other resources are available online that you can use to educate yourself on this subject. Overall, I hope you understand that feminists like me do understand the problems men face and try to address them, but it is ridiculous to think that men face all, or even the majority, of the gender discrimination. The op expressed an interest in a career in the film industry, and I wish her all the best in her ambitions. It is, however, a perfect example of an industry full of sexism and gender stereotypes, with a high disparity between male and female directors, screenwriters, producers, composers, etc. This is a problem we must all address, together, for everyone's good, and I sincerely hope I can change your opinions. Good day.
    Whilst feminists are meant to care or do things about this, they are only doing anything if women are concerned. They don't care about male rape. This is one of the reasons I will always fight against the inequality movement that is thrid-wave feminism.
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    (Original post by balanced)
    Whilst feminists are meant to care or do things about this, they are only doing anything if women are concerned. They don't care about male rape. This is one of the reasons I will always fight against the inequality movement that is thrid-wave feminism.
    ..what evidence makes you think that feminists don't care about male victims of abuse or rape? have you seen feminists trying to silence or dismiss them?
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    (Original post by thermometer)
    ..what evidence makes you think that feminists don't care about male victims of abuse or rape? have you seen feminists trying to silence or dismiss them?
    Not exactly trying to silence or dismiss them. But as a movement which tries to say it advocates rights for both sexes and addresses problems of both- you NEVER hear them discussing this issue. Edit: - or in fact many of the issues that men face.
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    (Original post by ReeceM1)
    Not exactly trying to silence or dismiss them. But as a movement which tries to say it advocates rights for both sexes and addresses problems of both- you NEVER hear them discussing this issue.
    I'm sorry you feel that way but I guess just because you don't hear something doesn't mean it doesn't happen. if you're going by what you see online, then Twitter for example is a place where PLENTY of feminists discuss issues affecting all genders, races, sexualities, whatever.
    I think it's an exaggeration to say that we don't discuss male victims.
    besides, even men rarely seem to discuss male victims UNLESS they're arguing with a feminist. correct me if I'm wrong though, because I'm just saying that from what I've seen. most if not all instances of men discussing this appears to be in defense of anti-feminism, rather than actively trying to support male victims. in fact, a lot of male rape victims get shamed and made fun of, or told that they "should have enjoyed it" (by other men) - and it's feminists who often stand up for and acknowledge them.

    Edit: I do however believe that feminism is not perfect and could do more to support women AND to support men. but one step at a time; the progress is painfully slow and we need more work on improving the rights of women as well.
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    (Original post by thermometer)
    I'm sorry you feel that way but I guess just because you don't hear something doesn't mean it doesn't happen. if you're going by what you see online, then Twitter for example is a place where PLENTY of feminists discuss issues affecting all genders, races, sexualities, whatever.
    I think it's an exaggeration to say that we don't discuss male victims.
    besides, even men rarely seem to discuss male victims UNLESS they're arguing with a feminist. correct me if I'm wrong though, because I'm just saying that from what I've seen. most if not all instances of men discussing this appears to be in defense of anti-feminism, rather than actively trying to support male victims. in fact, a lot of male rape victims get shamed and made fun of, or told that they "should have enjoyed it" (by other men) - and it's feminists who often stand up for and acknowledge them.
    You're not wrong - I recon many issues regarding men only appear in arguments where people are trying to discredit feminism. But tbh with the feminists that I know every thing they say regarding feminism seems to be attacking men and blaming men and discussing the most insignificant, trivial, issues and not the real problems that women face. I personally wouldn't have a problem with feminism and I do fully support equal rights but would refrain from calling myself a feminist not because I don't believe in the fundamental ideas of gender equality but because of what I've read, heard and seen of the modern day feminist movement.
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    (Original post by thermometer)
    THIS! I'd rep you 200 times if I could lmao I didn't want to leave that post as the last word either, but I was just so tired and there was so many things wrong with it that I couldn't be bothered typing out a massive response. so props to you.
    anyway I think there's so many huge misunderstandings surrounding feminism. it especially gets me when someone mentions a problem that women face and then people are like "but men have problems too!!!" yes no one said men don't have problems lol we're just trying to acknowledge injustices imposed on mainly women. besides, feminism absolutely understands, acknowledges and supports male victims so I don't know what the confusion is about tbh.
    Thanks! I was about to leave it too, and often I do. But I suppose occasionally the frustration is too much and one just has to compose a proper reply, even though it often feels like we're fighting an impossible battle.I don't understand those misconceptions either. And I've never understood the response to racism or sexism or whatever saying how bad it is for the male/white population. I'm white, and I would NEVER suggest that it's white people who face the discrimination and the racism. It's not the same issue, obviously, although they are linked, and I think the angry response to them comes from the same place. It's the basic misconception that gender-equality or race-equality campaigners are trying to attack THEM, while this has never been the point.
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    (Original post by thermometer)
    I'm sorry you feel that way but I guess just because you don't hear something doesn't mean it doesn't happen. if you're going by what you see online, then Twitter for example is a place where PLENTY of feminists discuss issues affecting all genders, races, sexualities, whatever.
    I think it's an exaggeration to say that we don't discuss male victims.
    besides, even men rarely seem to discuss male victims UNLESS they're arguing with a feminist. correct me if I'm wrong though, because I'm just saying that from what I've seen. most if not all instances of men discussing this appears to be in defense of anti-feminism, rather than actively trying to support male victims. in fact, a lot of male rape victims get shamed and made fun of, or told that they "should have enjoyed it" (by other men) - and it's feminists who often stand up for and acknowledge them.

    Edit: I do however believe that feminism is not perfect and could do more to support women AND to support men. but one step at a time; the progress is painfully slow and we need more work on improving the rights of women as well.
    The whole problem with feminism really is, regardless of whether it actually does discuss male issues or not, it's never highly publicised whereas as soon as some daft none-issue that is apparently anti-women crops up it's suddenly all over the place. Tumblr's probably part of the reason why, there's an awful lot of rubbish on there and it's that site that seems to get all the publicity for stuff.

    It's really hard to get people to want to identify as being part of a thing that's so goddamn messy. I wouldn't want to be calling myself a feminist nowadays
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    (Original post by ReeceM1)
    You're not wrong - I recon many issues regarding men only appear in arguments where people are trying to discredit feminism. But tbh with the feminists that I know every thing they say regarding feminism seems to be attacking men and blaming men and discussing the most insignificant, trivial, issues and not the real problems that women face. I personally wouldn't have a problem with feminism and I do fully support equal rights but would refrain from calling myself a feminist not because I don't believe in the fundamental ideas of gender equality but because of what I've read, heard and seen of the modern day feminist movement.
    Don't be worried about a movement's 'reputation', whatever you think it is. It's this simple: if you believe in equality for women and men, you're a feminist. If you don't, you're not.
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    (Original post by balanced)
    Whilst feminists are meant to care or do things about this, they are only doing anything if women are concerned. They don't care about male rape. This is one of the reasons I will always fight against the inequality movement that is thrid-wave feminism.
    ... I kind of feel like you didn't even read what I wrote...
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    (Original post by tyling_roses)
    .
    Jesus ******* christ you can write a wall of text but can't use paragraphs!!??!!
 
 
 
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