Should schools alter changing rooms, toilets + uniforms to accommodate trans pupils?
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I think in new schools this would be something that should be implemented or in cases where there are plans to refurbish toilets / changing rooms anyway, then this should be considered. I don't think it should be done with a matter of urgency across all schools mainly due to expense, but if adding a gender neutral bathroom will act to make some students more comfortable at school then I can't see a reason to oppose it. I think what is needed more urgently is education on the matter, it should be cheaper to implement then adding gender neutral bathrooms, and imo is a lot more important than half of the stuff they teach in parts of PSHE.
Original post by Implication
I think a better question is why we need to have gendered bathrooms in the first place...
On an unrelated note, girl bathrooms are vile. Way worse than male ones (as hard as that is to believe). I had a job of cleaning in our local cinema a few years ago. I quit after 3 days. The line had to be drawn when i stumbled across a what looked like a miscarriage on one of the toilets. **** that. The whole bathroom constantly smelled of poop and used tampons.
Even if genderless bathrooms are ever introduced, I'm staying in male ones regardless. Any non transexual who doesn't is weirdo
Original post by DanB1991
Really? Our uni had a uni sex toilet, with baby changing facilities.
Also what about male/female parents taking their young children of the opposite gender to the toilet? Child protection laws involved sexualised things, no going to the toilet or showers etc.
Personally I think uni sex toilets is a simple solution, however the issue, as was at our uni, people had sex in there so was a pain to enforce/encourage people not to.
Also what about male/female parents taking their young children of the opposite gender to the toilet? Child protection laws involved sexualised things, no going to the toilet or showers etc.
Personally I think uni sex toilets is a simple solution, however the issue, as was at our uni, people had sex in there so was a pain to enforce/encourage people not to.
Uni toilets don't have below 16 years old in them as regular by the uni and their Resposiblities asthenosphere same with parents it's their responsibility taking their children into the changing rooms as it is their decision and their responsibility while mixing sex when you are caring for other children and their wellbeing is your responsibility you have to separate.
I would love it not to be but there are too many risks to carry it out (trust me I literally did a small risk assessment)
Original post by CTENG
*awkwardly*
Buuut child protection laws...
Buuut child protection laws...
What child protection laws are you referring to here? As a social worker, I can't think of a single statutory act related to child protection that mandates what you claim it to. The Children Act 1989 places a duty of care on local authorities to protect the best interests of a child, and by extension this falls under professional careers that work for the local authority (social workers, teachers etc). However, the whole gender notion that you allude to, as I understand it, is a preference rather than a requirement. For example, teachers who work in primary education (or even nursery) will have a mixed-sex class, and with those ages they are expected to assist the child with personal care needs when possible. It isn't always practical for a same-sex teacher to assist a child to the toilet, therefore it would be neglectful to make a child wait X amount of time based on an apparent legal requirement that only a same-sex teacher assist them in a toilet. If one is available, there's a social (and possibly even an organisational) expectation that this will occur, but to say it is enshrined within child protection law is, to the best of my knowledge, factually inaccurate.
Original post by Lawliettt
On an unrelated note, girl bathrooms are vile. Way worse than male ones (as hard as that is to believe). I had a job of cleaning in our local cinema a few years ago. I quit after 3 days. The line had to be drawn when i stumbled across a what looked like a miscarriage on one of the toilets. **** that. The whole bathroom constantly smelled of poop and used tampons.
From conversations with women I'm not sure that's typical lol. But hey, I don't really know.
Even if genderless bathrooms are ever introduced, I'm staying in male ones regardless. Any non transexual who doesn't is weirdo
Why? I've worked in buildings with gender-neutral bathrooms and cis-men and women used them no probs. You just go to the toilet that's nearest to you lol.
Original post by AlteredBoy
With all due respect, laws change all the time. If the law on this were to change then would facilities therefore change to accommodate this?
Maybe but the law probably won't change due to the overwhelming majority of heteronormaty, it's just not safe to allow all sexes into one area without regulation and safeguards, trust me it's a pain I have to do it all the time because there's also a limit to how many children both minimum and maximum that children are safe with one adult, that changes with age, remember in primary you probably had a teaching assistant? That's cause a class usually exceeded the limit. Child Protection laws are taken seriously and are being edited to protect from homosexual or non-binary gender issues but I think that sexes will stay separate due to the majority and the additional effects said *ahem* compatibility has between a male female contact.
This is becoming more and more of an issue now, as trans issues are being covered more in media and there are more well-known transgender people
I think something definitely needs to be done, although I don't know whether the answer is as simple as 'let them use the toilets of the gender they identify with', or 'have gender neutral facilities', or a mixture of the two. I definitely agree with @PQ about the disabled toilets issue - that would be disadvantaging the people who those facilities are designed for. The issue is something that should be part of a school's equalities policy, for definite. As for Child Protection - maybe that is as the law stands relates to biological sex rather than gender, but it was written when this was less of an issue, so maybe some things need to be reconsidered. Surely there is a CP issue if the school know that there is likely to be bullying and they do nothing about it?
However, more is needed than just thinking through the practical issues such as 'where will they change/go to the toilet'. It will be important to educate young people about these sorts of things, and promote acceptance (not just of this, but of diversity in general) and equality. This (if done sensitively and considerately) will probably go further than the practical stuff, although of course those issues are important too.
Interestingly, I saw an article about this today on the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35941979
I think something definitely needs to be done, although I don't know whether the answer is as simple as 'let them use the toilets of the gender they identify with', or 'have gender neutral facilities', or a mixture of the two. I definitely agree with @PQ about the disabled toilets issue - that would be disadvantaging the people who those facilities are designed for. The issue is something that should be part of a school's equalities policy, for definite. As for Child Protection - maybe that is as the law stands relates to biological sex rather than gender, but it was written when this was less of an issue, so maybe some things need to be reconsidered. Surely there is a CP issue if the school know that there is likely to be bullying and they do nothing about it?
However, more is needed than just thinking through the practical issues such as 'where will they change/go to the toilet'. It will be important to educate young people about these sorts of things, and promote acceptance (not just of this, but of diversity in general) and equality. This (if done sensitively and considerately) will probably go further than the practical stuff, although of course those issues are important too.
Original post by IFoundWonderland
What happens to a trans child at a unisex school?
@*Interrobang*
It doesn't really deal with the issue though. I think that it was also slightly easier on the schools that all three students mentioned were in their last year.
I'm just imagining how it would go down in the convent I went to
It doesn't really deal with the issue though. I think that it was also slightly easier on the schools that all three students mentioned were in their last year.
I'm just imagining how it would go down in the convent I went to
Original post by LPK
What child protection laws are you referring to here? As a social worker, I can't think of a single statutory act related to child protection that mandates what you claim it to. The Children Act 1989 places a duty of care on local authorities to protect the best interests of a child, and by extension this falls under professional careers that work for the local authority (social workers, teachers etc). However, the whole gender notion that you allude to, as I understand it, is a preference rather than a requirement. For example, teachers who work in primary education (or even nursery) will have a mixed-sex class, and with those ages they are expected to assist the child with personal care needs when possible. It isn't always practical for a same-sex teacher to assist a child to the toilet, therefore it would be neglectful to make a child wait X amount of time based on an apparent legal requirement that only a same-sex teacher assist them in a toilet. If one is available, there's a social (and possibly even an organisational) expectation that this will occur, but to say it is enshrined within child protection law is, to the best of my knowledge, factually inaccurate.
But what I mean was the mix in more middle ground such as secondary where no assistance is needed but mixing can result in less the pleasant events, I don't take gender as this point I take sex as compatability and heterosexual majority in the age ranges of 8-16 where they are fully able to take care of their own (unless exceptional circumstances dictate)
I speak mainly from briefings and personal experience with a younger group and my own observations in my own life without formal education while the practically of only the opposite sex available is the circumstances I'm talking about my point is that if the same sex is available it should be that sex to accompany into the toilet or changing room, while it may be social every single piece of knowledge I have been given points to a legal requirement of not being with a child of the opposite sex...wait I just fully remembered it it's by sex in that context... But in secondary age where sexual awakenings happen it is in the best interest of the children to keep separate the sexes on changing rooms and toilets due to certain events, I may have used the wrong terminology such as "laws" but my meaning is the same, they are kept separate for the best interests due to unsavoury things can happen more often in unisex utilities due to the sexuality majority
Original post by CTENG
Maybe but the law probably won't change due to the overwhelming majority of heteronormaty, it's just not safe to allow all sexes into one area without regulation and safeguards, trust me it's a pain I have to do it all the time because there's also a limit to how many children both minimum and maximum that children are safe with one adult, that changes with age, remember in primary you probably had a teaching assistant? That's cause a class usually exceeded the limit. Child Protection laws are taken seriously and are being edited to protect from homosexual or non-binary gender issues but I think that sexes will stay separate due to the majority and the additional effects said *ahem* compatibility has between a male female contact.
I think you're confusing heteronormativity with something else. I work with older kids (12-18) and I've recently been trained on safeguarding. We didn't get told anything about bathroom procedures, but then again the age the kids are at mean they should be independent. The media likes to overemphasise incidents which doesn't exactly help with matters like this, but on the whole it would prove to be more beneficial than current standards. With being trans going to the bathroom can be difficult. With visibility on the increase a lot of kids are finally realising that their feelings are valid and that ok, yeah maybe something isn't quite right. Surely a young child's emotional welfare is important enough to make this a legit policy, especially given how your experiences as a child have a significant determination on you in adolescence and into adulthood
Original post by IFoundWonderland
@*Interrobang*
It doesn't really deal with the issue though. I think that it was also slightly easier on the schools that all three students mentioned were in their last year.
I'm just imagining how it would go down in the convent I went to
It doesn't really deal with the issue though. I think that it was also slightly easier on the schools that all three students mentioned were in their last year.
I'm just imagining how it would go down in the convent I went to
I guess you're talking about the article? I was mostly using it as proof that other people (well, the BBC at least) had considered that aspect of it too, rather than just focusing on the co-ed schools. I know it doesn't provide an 'answer'
It may have been easier for the schools if the students were in their final year, but equally if the issues had been raised earlier in their education, they may have identified publicly as trans much earlier. However, on the other hand schools may be reluctant (if they do need to pay any money to make any changes) to do it, knowing that they may only be used for a year (although of course, they may have other students who later identify as trans)
Original post by AlteredBoy
I think you're confusing heteronormativity with something else. I work with older kids (12-18) and I've recently been trained on safeguarding. We didn't get told anything about bathroom procedures, but then again the age the kids are at mean they should be independent. The media likes to overemphasise incidents which doesn't exactly help with matters like this, but on the whole it would prove to be more beneficial than current standards. With being trans going to the bathroom can be difficult. With visibility on the increase a lot of kids are finally realising that their feelings are valid and that ok, yeah maybe something isn't quite right. Surely a young child's emotional welfare is important enough to make this a legit policy, especially given how your experiences as a child have a significant determination on you in adolescence and into adulthood
As I said in what I now realise was a different reply is that it's difficult without a full straightforward wander, possibly without one because you have to weigh up the risks but maybe because I'm a pessimist and I can think of the worst possible outcomes immediately but I just can see it falling apart and being taken advantage of.
It's sensitive due to the amount of viewpoints and social rules but it's just the vulnerability within bathrooms/changing room that may be the issue with me
Also the age bracket of 1218 passes through the age where such things aren't applicable whee I come form so that may effect my view
Original post by CTENG
But what I mean was the mix in more middle ground such as secondary where no assistance is needed but mixing can result in less the pleasant events, I don't take gender as this point I take sex as compatability and heterosexual majority in the age ranges of 8-16 where they are fully able to take care of their own (unless exceptional circumstances dictate)
I speak mainly from briefings and personal experience with a younger group and my own observations in my own life without formal education while the practically of only the opposite sex available is the circumstances I'm talking about my point is that if the same sex is available it should be that sex to accompany into the toilet or changing room, while it may be social every single piece of knowledge I have been given points to a legal requirement of not being with a child of the opposite sex...wait I just fully remembered it it's by sex in that context... But in secondary age where sexual awakenings happen it is in the best interest of the children to keep separate the sexes on changing rooms and toilets due to certain events, I may have used the wrong terminology such as "laws" but my meaning is the same, they are kept separate for the best interests due to unsavoury things can happen more often in unisex utilities due to the sexuality majority
I speak mainly from briefings and personal experience with a younger group and my own observations in my own life without formal education while the practically of only the opposite sex available is the circumstances I'm talking about my point is that if the same sex is available it should be that sex to accompany into the toilet or changing room, while it may be social every single piece of knowledge I have been given points to a legal requirement of not being with a child of the opposite sex...wait I just fully remembered it it's by sex in that context... But in secondary age where sexual awakenings happen it is in the best interest of the children to keep separate the sexes on changing rooms and toilets due to certain events, I may have used the wrong terminology such as "laws" but my meaning is the same, they are kept separate for the best interests due to unsavoury things can happen more often in unisex utilities due to the sexuality majority
In my experience working with young people who need assistance with their personal care, there should be two people assisting, to cover each other (as yes, women can sexually assault other women, it's not just men). At least that is good practice. In these situations, guys (assuming they feel comfortable of course) can help with the females, if the second person is female. This is generally more acceptable (or at least, the guys feel more comfortable) with the younger children than the older young people. On the other hand, two girls can assist in the personal care of a guy (although in an ideal world, it would probably be at least one male. Unfortunately the care industry is very much male-dominated). So while this is sexist to an extent, it's not as bad as you seem to make out.
Schools probably have their own separately policies on dealing with young people who do not require help, but merely supervision. However, in primary schools this is problematic as the entire staff (except probably a couple of teachers) is likely to be female. There is more of a balance in secondary school
But this is a separate issue to the original topic (unless we are jumping into the realms of transgender teachers!)
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by CTENG
Uni toilets don't have below 16 years old in them as regular by the uni and their Resposiblities asthenosphere same with parents it's their responsibility taking their children into the changing rooms as it is their decision and their responsibility while mixing sex when you are caring for other children and their wellbeing is your responsibility you have to separate.
I would love it not to be but there are too many risks to carry it out (trust me I literally did a small risk assessment)
I would love it not to be but there are too many risks to carry it out (trust me I literally did a small risk assessment)
But still... what child protection laws disallows them?
The main (well only) disadvantage is kids having sex in the school toilets, which in all honesty happens anyway. What other risks are there that don't normally occur in same gender toilets?
Original post by *Interrobang*
But this is a separate issue to the original topic (unless we are jumping into the realms of transgender teachers!)
But this is a separate issue to the original topic (unless we are jumping into the realms of transgender teachers!)
I'm not opening that can of worms
Another day perhaps but it is midnight so not right now
Original post by DanB1991
But still... what child protection laws disallows them?
The main (well only) disadvantage is kids having sex in the school toilets, which in all honesty happens anyway. What other risks are there that don't normally occur in same gender toilets?
The main (well only) disadvantage is kids having sex in the school toilets, which in all honesty happens anyway. What other risks are there that don't normally occur in same gender toilets?
I'm talking about the possibility of less than consensual sex as if a make can walk into a female bathroom who by all means looks like they mean no harm and in most cases don't there is the chance that it is a straight cis male that is looking for a pass into the girls toilets
I guess it's just the kind of people in my leaving establishments that lead me to think about such things but I do tend to think of the worst case scenario
It's much easier for them to just use disabled toilets or the facilities of the gender that they present as. My friend has worn the male uniform and used the male facilities all the way through his transition at 16.
When I asked him on chat ages ago he said that "As a guy I want to use the guy's toilets not the girl's or special toilets. I'm passable so it shouldn't be a problem. There's always the disabled facilities if someone has a problem with me being there."
Most people on here are probably cis-gender, we should probably be asking trans people what they would prefer instead of trying to decide for them and make decisions based on assumptions of what they want.
When I asked him on chat ages ago he said that "As a guy I want to use the guy's toilets not the girl's or special toilets. I'm passable so it shouldn't be a problem. There's always the disabled facilities if someone has a problem with me being there."
Most people on here are probably cis-gender, we should probably be asking trans people what they would prefer instead of trying to decide for them and make decisions based on assumptions of what they want.
Original post by NekoAngel13
It's much easier for them to just use disabled toilets or the facilities of the gender that they present as. My friend has worn the male uniform and used the male facilities all the way through his transition at 16.
When I asked him on chat ages ago he said that "As a guy I want to use the guy's toilets not the girl's or special toilets. I'm passable so it shouldn't be a problem. There's always the disabled facilities if someone has a problem with me being there."
Most people on here are probably cis-gender, we should probably be asking trans people what they would prefer instead of trying to decide for them and make decisions based on assumptions of what they want.
When I asked him on chat ages ago he said that "As a guy I want to use the guy's toilets not the girl's or special toilets. I'm passable so it shouldn't be a problem. There's always the disabled facilities if someone has a problem with me being there."
Most people on here are probably cis-gender, we should probably be asking trans people what they would prefer instead of trying to decide for them and make decisions based on assumptions of what they want.
From what I have seen the tg community want to use the toilets of the gender they present as not forced into a 3rd type
Original post by MarleyZ
The Association of Teachers and Lecturers has voted to lobby for better training for staff to support transgender pupils.
Teachers with experience of supporting these pupils have said that changes to toilets, changing rooms and uniforms are more straightforward ways to help - what do you think?
Should these changes be made? ie. all gender toilets and changing rooms
Teachers with experience of supporting these pupils have said that changes to toilets, changing rooms and uniforms are more straightforward ways to help - what do you think?
Should these changes be made? ie. all gender toilets and changing rooms
Err nah.
They should be made to use the facilities of their sex.
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