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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    Don't you remember we had this same conversation in last year's thread about the petition in male circumcision.
    Yes, I do. You say that as if you actually convinced me (or any other rational person) on that thread.

    FGM is genital mutulation,how are you attempting to compare it with male circumcision?
    It's considered genital mutilation now that it's illegal. I can compare it to female genital mutilation because routine male circumcision is, by the same definition, also genital mutilation.

    In any case, I'm comparing it in terms of your usual culture argument: if 'it's culture' is a good enough reason for medically unnecessary cutting of male genitals, then why not of female genitals?
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    (Original post by Legendary Quest)
    Because they are being mutilated and they don't have a choice? It's like chopping off a child's finger and saying 'it's ok, you can function perfectly fine without that one little finger'.

    If you want to get yourself circumcised when you get older then by all means go for it but don't mutilate a child and say it's alright.
    I was pointing out that this also happens in the west,so it's not just limited to certain cultures or religion. Like I've said,if male circumcision was so harmful,in sure most doctors would've asked for a nationwide ban
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    (Original post by BubbleBoobies)
    have you read about the orthodox jewish rituals whereby rabbis suck the blood of the newly-circumcised baby penis? it sounds unbelievable but it actually happens, and I remember reading a few years ago that a rabbi with herpies actually caused the deaths of two kids in new york through it
    Yeah I know about that, it's totally gross. I'd add that this occurs mostly amongst Haredi Jews (who are basically an extremist cult, or "ultra-orthodox"). The vast majority of ordinary Orthodox Jews (Orthodox Judaism is basically mainstream Judaism) would not do that.

    Of course that doesn't take away from the fact the practice is absolutely disgusting and must be prohibited
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    (Original post by alkaline.)
    no. fgm: procedures that intentionally alter or cause injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons.
    And what percentage of male circumcisions do you propose are carried out for medical reasons? :rolleyes: Hint: 'hygiene and stuff' is not a medical reason.
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    (Original post by Tootles)
    Maybe a little, but not enough to make sex a struggle. I'm still plenty sensitive.
    In my experience it was more than a little, not enough to make sex a struggle but enough to make it less pleasurable, especially blowjobs.
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    (Original post by shawtyb)
    in line with circumcision, they are also deeming genital piercings genital mutilation
    Who is? Because they are not. Piercings are reversible (take them out and the hole heals up eventually) and consent must be provided (they are illegal to perform on under 16s)

    I'll repeat that so that people can take it in...

    Genital piercing on an under 16 is against the law - it is classed as indecent assault!
    Genital mutilation on an under 16 is considered acceptable!

    WTF?
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    and children do not get STD's and those cultures who do tend to perform this do not tend to be the most sexually free societies so exposure to STD's is really a poor argument in this case
    Exactly. I don't think it can be justified to expose a child to one of the leading causes of death (fatality resulting from circumcision) in order to confer on the child a benefit that has only been demonstrated in statistics and epidemiology, and when the vast majority of native Western boys will not face the danger it purports to protect against (HIV transmission from a woman in heterosexual sex)
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Yes, I do. You say that as if you actually convinced me (or any other rational person) on that thread.



    It's considered genital mutilation now that it's illegal. I can compare it to medically unnecessary because that, too, is genital mutilation by the same definition as female genital mutilation is.

    In any case, I'm comparing it in terms of your usual culture argument: if 'it's culture' is a good enough reason for medically unnecessary cutting of male genitals, then why not for female genitals?
    female general mutilation is disgusting and used to oppress and abuse women so they can't enjoy sex,how are you comparing it to male circumcision?
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    (Original post by Tootles)
    Maybe a little, but not enough to make sex a struggle. I'm still plenty sensitive.
    Yours was a medical necessity, so it would not be relevant, even if you lost no, or all feeling.
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    what *******s
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    And what percentage of circumcisions do you propose are carried out for medical reasons? :rolleyes: Hint: 'hygiene and stuff' is not a medical reason.
    lol
    I would quote other sources but ncbi is trusted so:

    " However, it has been shown that there is no difference between circumcised and uncircumcised men in their ability to sense extroceptive and tactile stimuli on the ventral and dorsal surfaces of the glans.[3] This definitely counters the idea of loss of penile sensation."

    although penile cancer is rare: "Previous studies have demonstrated a negative correlation between circumcision and penile cancer.[19] The most important risk factor for penile cancer is phymosis, which explains the fact that neonatal circumcision is more protective against penile cancer compared to circumcision performed at older ages"

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2878423/

    there's more but I cba
    as if i would just say "hygiene and stuff"

    but i would like to add: "Proper penile hygiene should all but eliminate the risk for foreskin-related medical problems that will require circumcision" dk how many guys can be asked to do this properly, let's hope they do.
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    + A recent meta-analysis of 16 prospective studies from diverse settings worldwide that evaluated complications following neonatal,infant, and child male circumcision found that median frequency of severe adverse events was 0% (range, 0%-2%). The medianfrequency of any complication was 1.5% (range, 0%-16%). Male circumcision by medical providers on children tended to be associatedwith more complications (median frequency, 6%; range, 2%-14%) than for neonates and infants [44].In the three African trials of adult circumcision, complication rates for adult male circumcision ranged from 2% to 8%. The mostcommonly reported complications were pain, bleeding, infection, and unsatisfactory appearance. There were no reported deaths orlong-term sequelae documented [16, 17, 18, 45, 46].Minimizing pain is an important consideration for male circumcision. Appropriate use of analgesia is considered standard of care forthe procedure at all ages and can substantially control pain. One study found that 93.5% of neonates circumcised in the first week of lifeusing analgesia gave no indication of pain on an objective, standardized neonatal pain rating system [47].

    http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pdf/preventio...rcumcision.pdf
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    (Original post by BubbleBoobies)
    how is female and male circumcision really so different though? isn't it the same principle at work? how can you justify male circumcision in a sense that wouldn't justify female circumcision?
    Female circumcision is done for non medical purposes and is just cruelty and leaves permenant damage ,it has no benefits to it. Male circumsion in the other hand is usually done to for health reasons. Correct me if I'm wrong
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    Are there benefits to a circumcision that one might deem reasonable cause? For instance, ease of cleansing?
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    female general mutilation is disgusting and used to oppress and abuse women so they can't enjoy sex,how are you comparing it to male circumcision?
    I've already answered this question (see my edit -- I slightly mangled one sentence). (And, for the record, your American example originated as a way to discourage boys from masturbating, if that's your criterion for whether the cutting of genitals should be called 'mutilation' or 'disgusting.')

    Your argument, the one that I've challenged, says that culture and tradition and rites of passage are legitimate reasons to allow male genital mutilation. Others can use that to claim that they, too, have the cultural right to what you describe as a disgusting practice for their daughters. So: what do you say to those people? :holmes:
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    I was pointing out that this also happens in the west,so it's not just limited to certain cultures or religion. Like I've said,if male circumcision was so harmful,in sure most doctors would've asked for a nationwide ban
    You're cutting off part of a human being's body. Of course whether or not it's harmful is dependent on who is conducting the procedure. I, still, fail to see why it needs to be done to a child. Should one be allowed to get their child's appendix removed just because they want it gone?
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    I've already answered this question (see my edit -- I slightly mangled one sentence). (And, for the record, your American example originated as a way to discourage boys from masturbating, if that's your criterion for whether the cutting of genitals should be called 'mutilation' or 'disgusting.')

    Your argument, the one that I've challenged, says that culture and tradition and rites of passage are legitimate reasons to allow male genital mutilation. Others can use that to claim that they, too, have the cultural right to what you describe as a disgusting practice for their daughters. So: what do you say to those people? :holmes:
    FGM is banned for a reason. The majority reason why parents choose to practice it is for health reasons? Cleanliness? Low risk of catching STDs and doctors should warn parents if they find that it's likely to cause more harm than good to the little boy before the procedure is done
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    Female circumcision is done for non medical purposes and is just cruelty and leaves permenant damage ,it has no benefits to it. Male circumsion in the other hand is usually done to for health reasons. Correct me if I'm wrong
    well that's clearly not the case at all though, is it. you really think america does it for the "health reasons"? it's purely cultural, as is FGM
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    (Original post by BeastOfSyracuse)
    So now you're shifting your argument because you realised how idiotic it sounded for you to say that my citing the fact that children can die from it is not an argument?

    You obviously have issues grasping basic logic and you are getting quite emotional, so I think it's probably best if we leave it there
    So it's my problem with basic logic forced you to misquote the article? Really? :cool:
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    (Original post by Legendary Quest)
    You're cutting off part of a human being's body. Of course whether or not it's harmful is dependent on who is conducting the procedure. I, still, fail to see why it needs to be done to a child. Should one be allowed to get their child's appendix removed just because they want it gone?
    That's why physicians should make the parents aware of it. I'm pretty sure most of it is done for medical reasons like those mentioned in the thread
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    (Original post by BubbleBoobies)
    well that's clearly not the case at all though, is it. you really think america does it for the "health reasons"? it's purely cultural, as is FGM
    Cultural? How so?
 
 
 
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