Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Why do some English people still look down on Ireland? Watch

    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    The DUP has not 'led' the North. It's called a power-sharing government, and while I disagree hugely with the beliefs of their voters, the DUP has seen fit to deny the democratic will of the people in vetoing same-sex marriage legislation which the majority of the region want.They are in a power-sharing coalition gov with Sinn Féin, who are far more progressive than their counterparts.
    Eh? That's from 2015. They won the 2010 election. What I said was completely accurate.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by l'insegnante)
    Tell me what my background is then oh one who knows everything?

    How many times do I have to tell you that until the age of 14 I was brought up in an atheist household with a Dutch mother and an English father. I was school on secular schools until I was 14. None of which were even in the UK never mind NI. The USA and Holland are not NI or the UK now are they??
    So please stop thinking you know what my upbringing was like just because you have a massive ego.
    I don't think you read my post properly:

    Even if you went to a hypothetical atheist school in a hypothetical oppressive atheist country and yet became Christian, this would still be because of your nature and nurture. The difference is that the PROBABILITY of becoming Christian was much lower hence why the AVERAGE would be atheist. The same goes for NI and Christianity.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by macromicro)
    Eh? That's from 2015. They won the 2010 election. What I said was completely accurate.
    No, sorry, you don't understand how this works.
    Because of the Good Friday Agreement, the main two parties on each side, nationalist and unionist, automatically go into a coalition with each other, partly because of the STV system but mainly because of the power-sharing initiative to prevent either side being oppressed or overridden by the other. These two parties are currently Sinn Féin and the DUP.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    No, sorry, you don't understand how this works.
    Because of the Good Friday Agreement, the main two parties on each side, nationalist and unionist, automatically go into a coalition with each other, partly because of the STV system but mainly because of the power-sharing initiative to prevent either side being oppressed or overridden by the other. These two parties are currently Sinn Féin and the DUP.
    I see, but they did win both elections, they are the largest party and still managed to oppress same-sex marriage, and are still leading the country with the most votes but in partnership, since 2010. That doesn't make a terribly big difference.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by macromicro)
    I see, but they did win both elections, they are the largest party and still managed to oppress same-sex marriage, and are still leading the country with the most votes but in partnership, since 2010. That doesn't make a terribly big difference.

    Yes but no, they didn't vote on same-sex marriage: because of the Good Friday Agreement both sides are allowed vetos, which they used on this bill.
    It makes a huge difference.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    Yes but no, they didn't vote on same-sex marriage: because of the Good Friday Agreement both sides are allowed vetos, which they used on this bill.
    It makes a huge difference.
    What I meant was that the DUP got their way regardless. It didn't actually make a difference, but if there was no power sharing, there wouldn't have been an assembly majority so it is progress nonetheless, albeit slow and lagging behind the rest of the UK.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by macromicro)
    What I meant was that the DUP got their way regardless. It didn't actually make a difference, but if there was no power sharing, there wouldn't have been an assembly majority so it is progress nonetheless, albeit slow and lagging behind the rest of the UK.
    I wouldn't say it is lagging behind the UK, it's technically ahead of the rest and coming into line with the other Irish state with same-sex marriage. It also has free prescription drugs and uni fees at a third of the costs England and Wales have.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    I wouldn't say it is lagging behind the UK, it's technically ahead of the rest and coming into line with the other Irish state with same-sex marriage. It also has free prescription drugs and uni fees at a third of the costs England and Wales have.
    It is progressing in areas where religion can't drag it down or where its recession-induced slump can't slow its growth.

    You need to remember that young ambitious skilled graduates choose a location based more on culture than things like the price of prescription drugs. A heavily religious culture with political conflict and lagging social justice is not attractive. Tuition fees are the same price for those outside NI so again this is not an incentive. As far as I can see, Belfast has no attraction power. It doesn't excel in anything and it is coming off of a bad period economically and politically.

    I don't believe it will ever attract more labour and investment and have a positive reputation until its religious/political feud is over, it has caught up with social discrepancies like abortions and homosexuality, and its religiosity has decreased. This will happen eventually but the progression is slow.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by macromicro)
    It is progressing in areas where religion can't drag it down or where its recession-induced slump can't slow its growth.

    You need to remember that young ambitious skilled graduates choose a location based more on culture than things like the price of prescription drugs. A heavily religious culture with political conflict and lagging social justice is not attractive. Tuition fees are the same price for those outside NI so again this is not an incentive. As far as I can see, Belfast has no attraction power. It doesn't excel in anything and it is coming off of a bad period economically and politically.

    I don't believe it will ever attract more labour and investment and have a positive reputation until its religious/political feud is over, it has caught up with social discrepancies like abortions and homosexuality, and its religiosity has decreased. This will happen eventually but the progression is slow.
    It is not in a "recession-induced slump". We have a greater GDP per capita than both North East England and Wales.
    Throughout the 1990s, our economy grew faster than the rest of the UK, due in part to the Celtic Tiger rapid growth of the economy of the Republic of Ireland and the so-called "peace dividend". In 2005, the region's economy is estimated to have grown by 3.2%, almost twice as fast as the UK as a whole, and future growth is expected to be stronger than that of the rest of the UK.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    It is not in a "recession-induced slump". We have a greater GDP per capita than both North East England and Wales.
    Throughout the 1990s, our economy grew faster than the rest of the UK, due in part to the Celtic Tiger rapid growth of the economy of the Republic of Ireland and the so-called "peace dividend". In 2005, the region's economy is estimated to have grown by 3.2%, almost twice as fast as the UK as a whole, and future growth is expected to be stronger than that of the rest of the UK.
    NI was hit harder than anywhere by the recession and as a result has had the slowest recovery with the lowest growth in the UK since 2008. From the BBC:

    "Northern Ireland's economic growth will remain the lowest of the 12 UK regions in 2015 [at 1.8%]."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-33797206

    http://pwc.blogs.com/northern-irelan...ulnerable.html

    Or simply have a look at the graph on page 6 which gives a 2008-15 comparison of GVA growth:

    http://www.danskebank.co.uk/SiteColl...ew-q1-2014.pdf

    In terms of your comparison to Wales and the NE, I have already replied to that on the previous page:

    (Original post by macromicro)
    The North East and Wales are also struggling. It's akin to Bolton university saying they aren't struggling in research output and pointing to London Met's research output.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by macromicro)
    NI was hit harder than anywhere by the recession and as a result has had the slowest recovery with the lowest growth in the UK since 2008. From the BBC:

    "Northern Ireland's economic growth will remain the lowest of the 12 UK regions in 2015 [at 1.8%]."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-33797206

    http://pwc.blogs.com/northern-irelan...ulnerable.html

    Or simply have a look at the graph on page 6 which gives a 2008-15 comparison of GVA growth:

    http://www.danskebank.co.uk/SiteColl...ew-q1-2014.pdf

    In terms of your comparison to Wales and the NE, I have already replied to that on the previous page:
    Which is the result of austerity and being partitioned.

    An independent study has found that a united Ireland would be beneficial to both north and south. The study, commissioned by KLC Communications in Canada, estimated if the North and South of Ireland were unified in eight years time Ireland’s GDP would grow by £25.4billion.
    The independent company also made a study of Germany in the 1980s and predicted it would be economically beneficial.

    http://irishpost.co.uk/united-irelan...-report-finds/
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    Which is the result of austerity and being partitioned.

    An independent study has found that a united Ireland would be beneficial to both north and south. The study, commissioned by KLC Communications in Canada, estimated if the North and South of Ireland were unified in eight years time Ireland’s GDP would grow by £25.4billion.
    The independent company also made a study of Germany in the 1980s and predicted it would be economically beneficial.

    http://irishpost.co.uk/united-irelan...-report-finds/
    This is irrelevant to your previous claims.

    I agree on a United Ireland but one that joins the UK also.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by macromicro)
    This is irrelevant to your previous claims.

    I agree on a United Ireland but one that joins the UK also.
    Slightly.

    No. That would never work and would lead to war, as it always has.
    There will never be peace in Ireland until the foreign, oppressive British presence is removed, leaving all the Irish people as a unit to control their own affairs and determine their own destinies as a sovereign people, free in mind and body, separate and distinct physically, culturally and economically.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    Slightly.

    No. That would never work and would lead to war, as it always has.
    There will never be peace in Ireland until the foreign, oppressive British presence is removed, leaving all the Irish people as a unit to control their own affairs and determine their own destinies as a sovereign people, free in mind and body, separate and distinct physically, culturally and economically.
    Progression requires co-operation not borders. I don't see people as Irish or English, just people. National pride is what leads to war not co-operation. Humans have fought for land and sovereignty for millennia - we aren't savages anymore. We are too advanced and under too much pressure to co-operate to keep fighting for nationalism. The only way forward is continually increasing unity.

    I presume you are a Eurosceptic then, considering Sinn Fein's plan?
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by macromicro)
    Progression requires co-operation not borders. I don't see people as Irish or English, just people. National pride is what leads to war not co-operation. Humans have fought for land and sovereignty for millennia - we aren't savages anymore. We are too advanced and under too much pressure to co-operate to keep fighting for nationalism. The only way forward is continually increasing unity.

    I presume you are a Eurosceptic then, considering Sinn Fein's plan?
    Unity - of countries, not empires.

    If we are too "advanced" and "under pressure to co-operate", explain the rise of the SNP then.

    I am a Eurosceptic, but not because of Sinn Féin, who aren't Eurosceptics.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    Unity - of countries, not empires.
    So why do you disagree with Ireland, a country, uniting with the countries of the UK? I would hardly call that an empire.

    If we are too "advanced" and "under pressure to co-operate", explain the rise of the SNP then.
    Scotland is still with us is it not? I am describing what ought to happen, not what currently is.

    I am a Eurosceptic, but not because of Sinn Féin, who aren't Eurosceptics.
    I know they aren't - I was referring to their call for a United Ireland vote if the UK leaves.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by macromicro)
    So why do you disagree with Ireland, a country, uniting with the countries of the UK? I would hardly call that an empire.

    Scotland is still with us is it not? I am describing what ought to happen, not what currently is.

    I know they aren't - I was referring to their call for a United Ireland vote if the UK leaves.
    United Kingdom is essentially an empire.
    Unity of countries as in independence.

    Well considering that they dominate the whole of Scotland, you can see that the consensus is to leave.

    Well that sounds fair enough - the SNP have said the same.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    United Kingdom is essentially an empire.
    Unity of countries as in independence.
    Unity and independence are both antonyms and synonyms - it wasn't the best choice of words in a thread about unionism vs nationalism! But I understand what you mean.

    This is a long debate for another thread I suppose (e.g. the EU referendum one where that debate is currently occurring).

    Well considering that they dominate the whole of Scotland, you can see that the consensus is to leave.
    The consensus was a 55% vote to stay but like I said I'm describing what I hope to happen in normative terms, not the current state of affairs.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    I only have to read the last few pages of this thread to see that alot of people still do look down on Northern Ireland.

    I am not going to deny that we have our problems (abortion legislation - note though that the population hasn't been asked) but the presumption that alot of English people hold about us is inaccurate and archaic.

    I wish people would acknowledge how far we have come instead of constantly focusing on the troubles that occurred 30 years ago. People who have never visited our country need to stop talking nonsense about it.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    England managed to subdue Ireland so ever since they've been considered inferior, apart from most of Northern Ireland because they were protestant settlers (ours).
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Would you like to hibernate through the winter months?
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.