Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Ken Livingstone destroyed by Andrew Neil live on air Watch

    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Was it just as anti Semitic when the PM of Israel in November pretty much said the same thing as Ken? He said initially Hitler wanted to deport Jews, not kill them.
    Even though Hitler and the Nazis wanted Jews to leave, they forced them to pay an extortionate tax when they emigrated. Throughout the 1930s, the Nazis increased both the persecution and the Flight Tax rate, in order to get take all the Jewish properties. It was not a simply "get out" policy.

    Similarly, the Haavara agreement was in fact a system in which Jews had to pay to leave Germany, so only fortunate Jews could emigrate.

    The story of German Jews emigration is partly told here: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...page&q&f=false
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aj12)
    I'd certainly say both comments were within the same vein. They both hugely minimize the Nazi view of Jews, deforming it into a problem that had to be removed, rather than the visceral hatred it actually was. Both comments also minimize events like kristallnacht and the various boycotts and legal oppression.In some ways I'd say Netanyahu's comments were worse since he was actively trying to push the blame from Hitler to someone else.

    What do you think?
    I'd agree.
    My point is that I've criticised both heavily for making the same comments, as have you.
    Many others seemed to ignore Netanyahu's comments while gleefully shredding Ken though.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    come on Ken, deny the Holocaust
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Josb)
    Even though Hitler and the Nazis wanted Jews to leave, they forced them to pay an extortionate tax when they emigrated. Throughout the 1930s, the Nazis increased both the persecution and the Flight Tax rate, in order to get take all the Jewish properties. It was not a simply "get out" policy.

    Similarly, the Haavara agreement was in fact a system in which Jews had to pay to leave Germany, so only fortunate Jews could emigrate.

    The story of German Jews emigration is partly told here: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...page&q&f=false
    The United States has similar provisions in its tax code for people wanting to renounce citizenship as Germany did in the 30s.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Brillo100)
    The United States has similar provisions in its tax code for people wanting to renounce citizenship as Germany did in the 30s.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Did they a similar ~97% flight tax only targeting Jews?
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    The Jewish population of the Soviet Union had no connection to the region. Maybe I am wrong, but all other groups were given region in which they had some historical connection to.
    Sort, though it's worth noting that not all other national narratives put as much emphasis on a particular land area as Jewish national movements have.

    Generally the Soviets set up autonomous areas for ethnic groups simply in the areas where they were concentrated, occasionally taking into consideration things like historical borders and territorial contiguity. This was a problem for diaspora groups like the Soviet Jews, who formed a minority pretty much everywhere, and had no obvious location for such an autonomous area, as their 'homeland' was outside the Soviet borders. This did not only apply to the Jews - it was also the case for the USSR's German population, for example. So the Soviets just ended up picking a piece of land wherever as a starting point, creating the Volga ASSR for the Germans and the JAO for the Jews.

    Not to mention that throughout Russian history, under the Tsars, it was a common policy to send people into exile in the far-flung corners of Siberia.
    That's certainly a fair comment, and there is certainly a similarity between the Tsarist deportations and some of the Soviet ones. But the movement of Jews to the JAO is not really an example of the latter. For a start, they were not forced - the Soviets heavily encouraged Jews to move to the JAO, but didn't round them up and deport them there as they did with the Siberia and Central Asia deportations. More importantly, generally when Stalin did forcibly deport entire ethnic groups, the purpose was to weaken their national movements by dispersing them across the country away from 'their' official area, as happened to (for example) the Abkhaz and the Soviet Germans during WW2. In the case of Jewish migration to the JAO, by contrast, Jews moved to the area of the country where their national language (for the Soviet Jews, this meant Yiddish rather than Hebrew) was the official language and their cultural traditions were officially acknowledged and encouraged in the education system (albeit in a pro-Soviet way).

    Maybe I am reading too much into this, but surely if any region were to be chosen, it would be the Pale of Settlement where the Jewish population had long been settled?
    Problem with that is that the Pale was huge and Jews were quite thinly spread across it despite their concentration there relative to the rest of the Russian Empire - what specific area would they pick? The USSR had also lost a large chunk of it as part of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. Also, in the early years of the Soviet nationalities policy (up until 1941, essentially), the Soviet leadership deliberately favoured non-Russian groups over Russians, as they didn't want to be seen as a Russian chauvinist empire. Putting the JAO in the Pale would have likely required them to take an area from Poles or Ukrainians, which they didn't want it to do, preferring to take it from Russians.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    Hitler was supportive of the Zionist aim of getting Jews to Palestine.
    Not the same thing as Hitler being supportive of Zionism, which is what Livingstone said. Hitler supported Zionism in the same way that the KKK supported the Back to Africa movement- not because they believed it was best for that group of people, but because they wanted to get rid of "undesirables".

    Back to Stormfront for you.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by BeastOfSyracuse)
    You personally clearly don't care about it, but you shouldn't confuse your own fevered anti-semitic prejudices with the views of the general population; you are projecting. It is extremely interesting though that you think the British population is indifferent to anti-semitism.
    Or you view the British public through rose-coloured glasses. Generally speaking people (British or otherwise) do not care about prejudice and other struggles faced by people who are not them, except for in a minority of cases when it becomes cool to pretend to care.

    There are some people in every society who generally care, but they are a minority. Apathy is an apparent human trait.
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: May 2, 2016
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Brussels sprouts
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.