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    (Original post by Josb)
    Then converts are also often keen to show that they are not faking their conversion.
    PRSOM.

    (Original post by Josb)
    Most people will respect and even congratulate you for leaving it.
    True, but those most people are unlikely to be the ones whose respect and congratulations she cares about. :dontknow:
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    Let's go through this point by point, shall we?

    (Original post by NeverGrowUp)
    I don't think you understand. God is testing us - everything we do is based on our choices. Just because God knows what your choice is doesn't mean you didn't make the choice and that God made you do it. Hence, your 'destiny' is just based on your actions. Here's a good analogy I read:
    God is not testing us because a test can only exist where there is doubt, and if God is all-knowing he cannot doubt or be unsure about anything. You are trying to consolidate two things which simply cannot be consolidated, either life is a test or God is all-knowing, logically speaking it can only be one or the other, not both.

    Now, your point about him not forcing you to do a certain action is totally irrelevant to this discussion, that's more appropriate to the free-will/predestination argument. If God knows what you will do in advance then he is not testing you because he is not finding out anything about you that he didn't already know. He knew how you would react to every situation of your life before you were even born so nothing about how you deal with them is surprising or unknown to him at all. Ergo there is no test.

    Likewise, if I put a bowl of ice-cream and a bowl of cauliflower in front of my child, I know for a fact which one is chosen--the ice cream. My knowing it ahead of time does not restrict my child from making a free choice when the time comes. My child is free to make a choice, and knowing the choice has no effect upon her when she makes it.
    False, you do not know for a fact that your child will pick the ice-cream. You can make an extremely good guess and you may always be right, but you do not know for a fact because no human is all-knowing. And again, this is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion about life being a test. You are just debunking yourself by admitting that God already knows everything you're going to do.

    I understand that it might be difficult for you to get your head around because I guess for many athiests you just want definite answers with physical evidence but thats not what religion is.
    I think it's you who's struggling to understand that God cannot be both all-knowing and testing us.

    One of the main points in a religion is to have faith, and just because you don't particularly understand how something works doesn't mean God doesn't exist.
    It doesn't mean he does exist though, this is just getting close to the God of the Gaps fallacy.

    You have to remember, that I believe in a GOD. A god who created the whole universe. Therefore, our knowledge and understanding doesn't come close to his abilities, our knowledge is ultimately limited within 3 dimensions, but God is beyond that.
    An empty claim with no evidence in its favour.
    • #14
    #14

    (Original post by Anonymous)
    x

    I just don't see a reason for covering my hair, I can be modest in my thoughts, I can be modest without a hijab. I love God and I hope he forgives me but I just don't understand why? If He made me the way I am and He loves me, why does He order men to rinse their hands from my touch?

    "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it" (5:6)Am I created dirty?
    by contact with women it's means after engaging in sexual activity esp if the guy ejaculates he needs to clean himself.
    it's not saying that your walking around dirty., "by your touch" because it's generally assuming being intimate with a guy will turn him on and the events that follow means he'll need to clean himself (and tbh so will you)
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    (Original post by NeverGrowUp)
    He created the world and gave life for us. God isn't human, he doesn't have the same way of thinking as you about having someone "demonstrate knowledge to" or whatever.
    This is just the concept of God from your very particular vantage point though. Christians for example do believe that God took on human form temporarily and all pantheists believe that humans are God.

    Well I'd beg to differ. Assuming you're Muslim it's very obvious from scripture that God does think and behave like humans, suspiciously like 7th century Arabs at that...
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    This is just the concept of God from your very particular vantage point though. Christians for example do believe that God took on human form temporarily and all pantheists believe that humans are God.

    Well I'd beg to differ. Assuming you're Muslim it's very obvious from scripture that God does think and behave like humans, suspiciously like 7th century Arabs at that...
    that bolded part :mmm:
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Let's go through this point by point, shall we?

    An empty claim with no evidence in its favour.
    Lol clearly, you completely disregarded my point about religion not being about understanding everything with solid evidence. My reason for believing in God is based on the proof of everything around us and being alive. Anyways, I already wrote out my views multiple times so will no longer try and explain again. Also, I reiterate that it's my choice, so I don't get why people are so caught up on people believing in God when no one is forcing them to?
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    (Original post by NeverGrowUp)
    I don't think you understand. God is testing us - everything we do is based on our choices. Just because God knows what your choice is doesn't mean you didn't make the choice and that God made you do it. Hence, your 'destiny' is just based on your actions. Here's a good analogy I read:
    Spoiler:
    Show
    By analogy, knowing what will happen does not mean that we are preventing or causing that thing to happen. The sun will rise tomorrow. I am not causing it to rise, nor am I preventing it from rising by knowing that it will happen. Likewise, if I put a bowl of ice-cream and a bowl of cauliflower in front of my child, I know for a fact which one is chosen--the ice cream. My knowing it ahead of time does not restrict my child from making a free choice when the time comes. My child is free to make a choice, and knowing the choice has no effect upon her when she makes it.
    Firstly, the sun isn't related to you and you have no effect of it. So it doesn't apply. God causes stuff, no? If not, why do you thank God for anything?

    And your child analogy is very similar to Butternutz The point is your child can still prove your pre-conceptions wrong and take the cauliflowers, you will be surprised as you would have expected it whatsoever. You cannot do this to an all-knowing, omnipotent God. You cannot decide to prove his pre-conceptions wrong even for the sake of proving it wrong. I assume, being all-knowing & omnipotent that all these decisions was bestowed upon you when you were first "created" by God, and you cannot divert from said decisions and actions (otherwise you are undermining the power of omnipotent God).

    (Original post by NeverGrowUp)
    I understand that it might be difficult for you to get your head around because I guess for many athiests you just want definite answers with physical evidence but thats not what religion is.
    Well, it would help if theists didn't pretend that their favourite religion, and favourite God knows all the answers to everything that ever was or will be . Anyway, sorry this isn't to do with free will and life is a test so its irrelevant
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    (Original post by NeverGrowUp)
    Lol clearly, you completely disregarded my point about religion not being about understanding everything with solid evidence.
    Because you're mixing up your arguments. I was responding specifically to your claim about life being test, your point about religion not always depending on solid evidence is irrelevant to the hypothetical topic we are discussing as well as being a huge cop-out.

    My reason for believing in God is based on the proof of everything around us and being alive. Anyways, I already wrote out my views multiple times so will no longer try and explain again. Also, I reiterate that it's my choice, so I don't get why people are so caught up on people believing in God when no one is forcing them to?
    Again, nothing to do with the "life is a test" narrative. People aren't caught up on it, you and everyone else is free to believe whatever you want, but if you make a claim on a debate forum then expect it to be challenged especially if it lacks both empirical evidence and cogency.
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    (Original post by BubbleBoobies)
    okay then - what is religion about? I never even discussed religion, I discussed "god", which isn't something exclusive to a religion seeing as you can have things like deism, pantheism (etc)



    that's a cop-out. human beings are rational creatures. we've come far enough to see where the universe came from (the big bang) yet you think that we're too stupid to understand basic logic that rules reality? go himself must be ruled by logic if he exists, or his very nature is nonsense. you can't say 2+2=5 for instance; maths *is* logic. but science is maths applied to reality. you can't contradict something like gravity (ruled by mathematical balances of forces), for instance. you can't have a man walking on water.
    I already explained what religion is about for me, in my previous reply so I won't repeat it. Your point on logic - you can refer to my previous point again about God being beyond us, I'm sure being a creator of the universe has already surpassed having to be ruled by logic. Also, yes i believe in the big bang, in such a way that God caused that to happen. yes, I agree we have come far enough to know about the big bang, yet scientists are unable to conclude why it happened. So for me personally, it's from God.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Because you're mixing up your arguments. I was responding specifically to your claim about life being test, your point about religion not always depending on solid evidence is irrelevant to the hypothetical topic we are discussing as well as being a huge cop-out.



    Again, nothing to do with the "life is a test" narrative. People aren't caught up on it, you and everyone else is free to believe whatever you want, but if you make a claim on a debate forum then expect it to be challenged especially if it lacks both empirical evidence and cogency.
    "lacks both empirical evidence and cogency" see that's what I've been saying, My faith in God isn't limited to the "lack" of "evidence". That's what I'm trying to emphasise to you - that's not what religion is about. therefore, to just base on argument on the lack of evidence to create understanding will just go nowhere as it is not a concern when discussing religion.
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    (Original post by NeverGrowUp)
    "lacks both empirical evidence and cogency" see that's what I've been saying, My faith in God isn't limited to the "lack" of "evidence". That's what I'm trying to emphasise to you - that's not what religion is about. therefore, to just base on argument on the lack of evidence to create understanding will just go nowhere as it is not a concern when discussing religion.
    If you are putting forward an argument from doctrine then it will usually be challenged. Resorting to the "Allah knows best" and "we don't need to always rely on physical evidence" tactics won't change that and they are ultimately meaningless if you want to have a logical, balanced debate.

    Again, you're free to believe in those things without evidence, but we're also free to challenge those elements of doctrine which make no sense and it seems to be the wrong way to go about it in assuming that a proposition is true and then trying to make the evidence fit.

    Instead of starting from the point that "Llife is a test, Allah said this and because I'm Muslim it must be true regardless of the fact it makes no logical sense" why don't you start from the point "Let's look at the logical and empirical evidence in favour of the claim that life is a test and then rationally conclude whether they adequately support such an assertion"?
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    (Original post by geniequeen48)
    But we can change our future right?
    I thought it was sort of like, God sets us events, and watches how we react towards it.
    Not necessarily. I mean, that whole concept of changing our future is part of a WAY more complex debate that's not within my capacity. Scholars debate around this topic. But my advice is not to dwell on this too much. This is not something God wants us worrying about. We should try and make ourselves better people as much as we can, all the time.
    • #15
    #15

    You can do what you want - yes it's hard but your family will just have to accept it.
    Afterall you are your own being and they cannot control what you think.
    What's the point in you outwardly being a Muslim but inwardly not? Completely defeats the point as your outward appearance along is nothing if you don't truely believe it.
    The UK is a free country and nobody can force you to wear what you want if you don't want to.

    I have a quite similar experience as I've grown up in a strict Christian home. Wasn't allowed to do/wear loads of things until I realised that the pretence to satisfy people's beliefs didn't get me anywhere, and when I have a true Christian experience was when I stopped seeing myself as a hypocrite and started from stage one to slowly build myself up first, before the outward stuff.
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    (Original post by chemting;[url="tel:64634875")
    64634875[/url]]awful analogy... I don't know everything about my (best) friend, that person can keep secrets, change his/her mind, do something to surprise me or just something I don't know about. I don't know how that person is going to be in the future (as I don't know the future), heck I don't even whether I'd even be friends with that person in 1,2,5 or 10 years time. That person might just decide to buy 4 different sweets to try something different, or even just for the sake of proving my pre-determined conceptions wrong... you can't obviously do that with an all-knowing, omnipotent allah - its a false comparison.



    so let me get this straight, omnipotent allah created an individual knowing full-well that said individual is going to commit sins during its time on earth and also knowing fully that this individual will suffer for all eternity - but still proceeds to create this individual. Sounds like a nice chap
    This thread ain't about bashing Islam so I'm not gonna respond to your second paragraph.

    Don't criticise the analogy; it makes perfect sense but you're viewing it through your standard islamophobic lens. Like I said, it all rests on one believing the concept that God is All-Knowing. He knows His creation better than a best friend knows his best friend (Use some common sense; will a best friend know the A-Z biography of his best friend? That's not the point I was getting at and you know it.).

    The argument doesn't appeal to you because you don't believe God is All-Knowing (you might not even believe in God so that'll further distract your judgement of whether or not it's a good analogy).

    *through gritted teeth*
    And like I said, FAIR-DO's to YOU if you don't believe God is All-Knowing but I merely just answered your question on "How is this life a test?". Feel free to disagree but bare in mind that noone else is asking you or forcing you to believe the same philosophy. So no need to get hostile.
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    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    This thread ain't about bashing Islam so I'm not gonna respond to your second paragraph.
    Why do I bother?

    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    Don't criticise the analogy;
    so what, just blindly accept your "analogy"

    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    it makes perfect sense but you're viewing it through your standard islamophobic lens.
    Anyone who disagrees with you is Islamophobic?

    I could say the same about you and your Islamophilic/Kafirophobic lens

    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    Like I said, it all rests on one believing the concept that God is All-Knowing. He knows His creation better than a best friend knows his best friend (Use some common sense; will a best friend know the A-Z biography of his best friend? That's not the point I was getting at and you know it.).
    You are comparing an omnipotent all-knowing God with the relationship of a human and his "best friend" (and last time I checked, a human is not all-knowing, omnipotent and is definitely fallible). You have said said this yourself in your post (I have emboldened it for you) that these two are not comparable, so the analogy does not necessarily apply...

    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    The argument doesn't appeal to you because you don't believe God is All-Knowing (you might not even believe in God so that'll further distract your judgement of whether or not it's a good analogy).
    Why does it appeal to you? because it makes your story feel complete? and explain away the flaws? So you admit that was an ad-hoc rationalisation... and a bit of circular reasoning - and definitely special pleading fallacy (my God is all-knowing and provides free will because my God is special and all-knowing: you cannot understand this)
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    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    *through gritted teeth*
    And like I said, FAIR-DO's to YOU if you don't believe God is All-Knowing but I merely just answered your question on "How is this life a test?". Feel free to disagree but bare in mind that noone else is asking you or forcing you to believe the same philosophy. So no need to get hostile.
    Sorry, didn't see this edit.

    okay, does God know the outcome of all your decisions and actions BEFORE he created you and set you in this earth? Does God not have complete influence over your actions? so much so that you cannot deviate even slightly from what God has decided regardless of what you want or whether you want to prove God wrong for the sake of doing so...

    oh btw, I'm not forcing you to be an atheist. I'm just criticising your philosophy - which isn't forcing you to believe mine.

    I am not being hostile, you called me an Islamophobe...
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    I think this thread has been officially derailed... and for that, I apologise to OP.

    In an attempt to bring this back to the point: There is no easy way of going about it. I suggest try speaking about this to your friends, or relatives you can trust (if there is anyone liberal and understanding) or even try speaking to a local "community leader" or someone if s/he is liberal or understanding enough to have a conversation with you about it. Someone who can be there to talk to your parents about your concerns. But don't take any "scholars" word for it.

    I can only say the only person you need to justify the hijab to is yourself: not your parents, relatives, "friends", community leaders and whatnot.
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    (Original post by chemting)
    X
    PRSOM.

    (Original post by Freudian Slit)
    that bolded part :mmm:
    The cuppity cup will be terribly disappointed if she finds out.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    PRSOM.



    The cuppity cup will be terribly disappointed if she finds out.
    Finds out as if cup and I aren't in contact all the time.

    Anyway apparently you don't like me so maybe you should stop quoting me
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    (Original post by Freudian Slit)
    Finds out as if cup and I aren't in contact all the time.
    How was I supposed to know that?

    Anyway apparently you don't like me so maybe you should stop quoting me
    What gave you that impression?
 
 
 
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