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    (Original post by Rakas21)

    In the words of the Queen Vic.. 'i am not amused'.
    She never said that though.
    (Original post by mobbsy91)
    Fire above the hip then?
    I always aim well. I deliver a surgical strike.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    So the bill has no material impact beyond making a small minority happy. That's all i needed to know.

    .....

    This is a Nay.

    May i also say that this is bill number (6 i think) of the term and i'm yet to give an Aye. In the words of the Queen Vic.. 'i am not amused'. Try harder and stop putting out nonsense.
    Take a look at the vote review for our Party - I think anyone is yet to give an Aye
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    The main problems with your bill are the definitions.

    Currently male and female refers to sex. In some legal circumstances the sex category unspecified or indeterminate also exists for intersex people. Whether most people are legally male and female is based on what it says under the box 'sex' on their birth certificate. Sex is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act, for both males and females. Furthermore, the UK is signed up to CEDAW - the international convention that protects women and girls in particular. This again refers to sex.

    There are a separate set of rights internationally for people who are 'gender non conforming' regardless of how they define themselves. In the UK transgender people are additionally protected under the additional characteristic of 'gender reassignment' in the Equality Act, and are allowed to legally change which sex category they are under.

    So when you set up a law saying that binary individuals refers to someone who is male and female (legally sex categories) and that gender, which you are defining as male, female and non-binary is going to be legally declarable in the UK, what does any of that actually mean?

    Are you now removing all the protection that males and females have as sexes? Are we opting out of international human rights conventions which protect people based on the legal category sex?

    And if not, and you intend to keep all those categories, isn't it massively confusing to call the sex categories and some of your new gender categories the same thing - male and female?

    Also, you say that anybody can self declare their gender identity, which is an internal state. Fine. We don't make it illegal for people to declare their emotional state, their political beliefs, their religious belief or any other internal state. But neither do we insist that people legally have to declare these things. Currently, gender identity is unknown and unrecorded for the vast majority of the population. It is not legally recorded. There is discussion of changing 'gender reassignment' to 'gender identity' as a protected characteristic for trans people, but that doesn't mean anyone else has a legal gender identity.

    So I think you need to make it clear in your bill that it all only applies to trans people, not to the general population. And if that is not the case, is your bill saying...

    a. Everyone has to declare a gender identity.

    If so, then you need a clear legal statement of the characteristics of a gender identity. Like at the moment we have a list of male, female and intersex gametes and gonads that are referred to for legal sex. What is being referred to in the legal category gender identity? You also need to justify why the government needs to know everyone's gender identity.

    b. Recording a gender identity is optional.

    In which case you need to extend your bill to make sure that people who do not tell the government what their gender identity is are protected from discrimination by i. official bodies assuming because they know someone's sex they know your gender identity and ii. harassment of those who don't wish to declare a gender identity or don't believe they have one.

    c. You're removing people's internationally agreed human rights by eradicating the legal category 'sex' and replacing it with 'gender' or 'gender identity.' In which case be honest about it in the wording of your bill, and don't pretend you're giving people additional rights when you're actually removing basic human rights from the vast majority of the population.
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    Nay.
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    Its a nay from me on this one. People can do what they like, if someone doesnt want a gender then that should be fine, i dont think the state should be encouraging it though.
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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    Its a nay from me on this one. People can do what they like, if someone doesnt want a gender then that should be fine, i dont think the state should be encouraging it though.
    The state allowing something doesn't amount to encouragement so that's a poor argument.
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    No, I do not accept non-binary genders as being a real thing, individuals are male, or female, accepting the creation of genders for the sake of it is not something I support.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    The state allowing something doesn't amount to encouragement so that's a poor argument.
    However it does. The idea that law is binary and that things are either allowed or not is false. There are grey areas. If someone wants to identify as non binary then they can already, enshrining it in law ONLY serves as encouragement.


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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    No, I do not accept non-binary genders as being a real thing, individuals are male, or female, accepting the creation of genders for the sake of it is not something I support.
    Thats irrelevant to this bill, its not about whether or not you accept that people identify as non binary but instead should it be entrenched into law.

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    It's a no from me. Absolute joke.
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    No, this is absolutely ridiculous. We need to base this (for the sake of common sense) upon physical anatomy - either you are biologically female, biologically male or in very very rare circumstances both, we should not go about pandering to people who do not 'feel' male or 'feel' female.

    We should offer them protection and help, but we should not start recognising this as some new variation of a person.

    I'm generally quite liberal on a lot of things but this really is just ridiculous.
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    (Original post by Inexorably)
    No, this is absolutely ridiculous. We need to base this (for the sake of common sense) upon physical anatomy - either you are biologically female, biologically male or in very very rare circumstances both, we should not go about pandering to people who do not 'feel' male or 'feel' female.

    We should offer them protection and help, but we should not start recognising this as some new variation of a person.

    I'm generally quite liberal on a lot of things but this really is just ridiculous.
    Hear hear. If someone wants to do what they want then thats fine, we do not need the state to recognise this though.

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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    Thats irrelevant to this bill, its not about whether or not you accept that people identify as non binary but instead should it be entrenched into law.

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    It is relevant, if I do not believe non-binary gender is a thing, I am not going to support a bill to recognise non-binary gender as a thing, give non-binary gender legal protections, and legitimise individuals identifying as a non-binary gender,
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    It is relevant, if I do not believe non-binary gender is a thing, I am not going to support a bill to recognise non-binary gender as a thing, give non-binary gender legal protections, and legitimise individuals identifying as a non-binary gender,
    It is a thing whether you believe it or not, its about whether that thing is worth recognising.

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    Aside from the issues with how it is written (typos and "shall be" for example), I am in support of the flavour of this, but not of the thing itself. I just don't think this is necessary and it would set a precedent for a lot of tedious inclusions later on. Equality (of opportunity) is undoubtedly important, but I think the biological distinction is sensible in this case. Also, from the way it is worded, couldn't our Welsh friends just decide not to include the pronouns and then this would never actually come into effect.

    I could possibly be persuaded of the need for this, but this would need some editing before it was sensible to vote for.
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    My view depends upon what the rules are based upon what toilet one is to use.
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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    It is a thing whether you believe it or not, its about whether that thing is worth recognising.

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    That is untrue, something is not a thing because an individual feels it should be a thing, there is no evidence to prove individuals are not male, or female; anecdotes of an individual promising society they feel the opposite gender, or a different gender, do not count. I reject the idea there are more than two genders, individuals need to accept they are a man, or a woman, with the individual's gender being the same as the individual's sex.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    That is untrue, something is not a thing because an individual feels it should be a thing, there is no evidence to prove individuals are not male, or female; anecdotes of an individual promising society they feel the opposite gender, or a different gender, do not count. I reject the idea there are more than two genders, individuals need to accept they are a man, or a woman, with the individual's gender being the same as the individual's sex.
    This is about the way people feel though. Some people do not feel male or female, and no matter how absurd that may be to you or I, that will be the case. The question is whether the those who do not feel male or female should be legally recognised as such. I dont think so but you seem to think that this is about the way you feel rather than the way that the people in question feel.

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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    This is about the way people feel though. Some people do not feel male or female, and no matter how absurd that may be to you or I, that will be the case. The question is whether the those who do not feel male or female should be legally recognised as such. I dont think so but you seem to think that this is about the way you feel rather than the way that the people in question feel.

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    I do not care how individuals feel, an individual's feeling cannot be justification to create, or accept, a new gender to accommodate the individual. If individuals are adamant they are not male, or female, those individuals should not be entitled to acceptance of their self-declared gender, nor should the government protect their newly-made up gender. It is not possible to stop individuals from having a belief, but it is possible to stop outrageous beliefs, that go against all scientific evidence, being accepted, legitimised, and validated by pressure groups who stand up for false minorities.
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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    This is about the way people feel though. Some people do not feel male or female, and no matter how absurd that may be to you or I, that will be the case. The question is whether the those who do not feel male or female should be legally recognised as such. I dont think so but you seem to think that this is about the way you feel rather than the way that the people in question feel.

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    Should we give schizophreniacs legal recognition for the voices in their heads?

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