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    (Original post by Defraction)
    Hmm, I see David Hume has influenced your point of thinking

    Firstly, even though David Hume, to some extent does not think God is the explanation for the world, he still argues that there is a designer of the world and that designer is very powerful and highly intelligent, but need not be God. The obvious thing here is that David Hume still think there is a someone, who he calls a designer, is behind the obvious creation of the world. In my opinion, God is just a definition of what people hold of the divine, purposeful intelligent transcendent being that must be a centre point of every single individual's life.

    Secondly, you haven't encountered death so you can't just assume that when you die that's it. Plus, the major thing all Abrahamic religions have in common is the creation of the universe and the afterlife. Islam, Judaism, Christianity and so forth all believe that we are tested by God. The Quran states: "Do you think they will be left to say 'We believe' without being put to the test(29:2). In Christianity, God showed his benevolence to His creation by sending his son, Jesus to save the believers and die for our sins. In Judaism, they argue if humans weren't given free will- the ability to choose what you want to do- then the actions will hold no religious or moral significance. For e.g. a rapist that rapes people because they are compelled to do so will be no different to a good person who gives charity because they are compelled to do so. Therefore, the fact that we have free will clearly shows why we die. We die because it's the end of our free-will orientated life and we will be tested, when it is the end of the world, by God on our actions and intentions.

    Lastly, unfortunately I don't place a cliché onto a deity. My concept of a divine being is completely different from yours. We are different people, who think differently, my life is different from yours as well as my thought of thinking. There are some things, for me personally, that doesn't need an explanation. So, let's say you are a homeless person and that you are materally deprived. You have suicidal thoughts and do not understand why your life is so bad. So, you decide to go and buy a lottery ticket then you won the lottery thus giving you £1 billion pounds. You end up getting a phone call from an interview you went last week and you got the job. Your sick mum recovers and is back on her feet. So, don't you think that everything that happened must have a purpose. It could've have happened by chance as there was a continuous amount of good things that happened. The most sufficient reason for this is God. God simply in words is a purposeful designer and divine being behind the creation of the world.

    I don't deem that you disregard you not believing in God but look at everywhere around you, there must be a designer behind it all. Sometimes, people shouldn't assume that they need to see proof in front of them but accept some things as they are. Like when some parents tell us not to go out at night and we decide to go out and you get mugged- then you realise you should've listened to your parents. The same applies to the existence of God.


    I hope I won!!!
    Sorry, I didn't even consider Hume in my arguments, so his views are unimportant in this discussion.

    Yes, I haven't encountered death - but from the general scientific understanding, brain death is an end to any consciousness. It is scientifically non-nonsensical to consider any sort of afterlife in that case. That is why I will continue to hold that position unless it is properly proven to the contrary.

    Although I can admit that there does seem to be a natural order in the universe, it needn't be conscious enough to be considered a divine being. Evolution is an example, because it isn't a perfect system; but rather a series of trials where certain bits survived and lived on down lineages. A designer would not make the mistakes evolution did. Your stance on a designer's need to exist relies on your awe of the world around us. But because you are such a tiny part of it, you can't (or choose not to) see the many imperfections that led to it, or remain.

    And regarding your continuing free-will argument, I still don't understand the inference of its relation to the existence of a deity. If an omniscient divine being exists, what would be the point of this test? Because it already knows every outcome. That seems completely pointless.

    Lastly, I don't think you understand probability. Your notion that a series of 'good' things happening points to divine intervention is just confirmation bias. Each of those events is neither 'good' nor 'bad' in a natural universe - they are just events with their own (usually mutually exclusive) probabilities of occurring. So a series of them occurring in a manner that you deem positive is nothing out of the ordinary outside of your perspective.

    And, I'm sorry but having faith without proof is not something I can do. It seems like a waste of my time to me, because I don't see how the deity you describe can exist and actually implement those rules in this test they are carrying out. It is illogical to me, and all the indirect evidence I've encountered points to the contrary. So I choose to ignore any notions and live in a more present mindset. If I believed in an afterlife and spent my life worshiping a deity in a restrictive manner (like I did as a Muslim, for example); and it turned out there was no afterlife, it would've been a huge waste.
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    (Original post by TheBirder)
    Yes it is incredibly complex, but you can see how it is built up of smaller parts that evolved over hundreds of millions of years. There is a difference between coincidence and evolution, coincidence got it started, but evolution took it from there.

    If you do believe in intelligent design, what created the designer? It would be an even more improbable for a designer as complex as that to come out by sheer coincidence.
    Well it is my belief that God was not created per se but has, and always will exist, in other words he has /always/ existed. I think that's the part that many non believers and even believers, including myself, struggle to get their head around.
    Also how do you believe that say the first living cell/ particle was created? How can something come out of nothing? What existed before that? Surely this is similar to the whole who created god ordeal. Idk man the whole thing is mind blowing to think about
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    (Original post by Defraction)
    Evolution is false because scientists argue there is no proof of it.
    Wait, what?!

    Sorry, I was under the impression I was talking to an intellectual theist. I'm done arguing with you.
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    No I don't and I never have.

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    The closest I've come to believing in God was when I played RollerCoaster Tycoon 3 and made a roller coaster that went straight up then suddenly ended leaving the passengers flying through the air to their deaths, at that moment, I thought I might be God.
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    (Original post by ameehannah)
    Well it is my belief that God was not created per se but has, and always will exist, in other words he has /always/ existed. I think that's the part that many non believers and even believers, including myself, struggle to get their head around.
    Also how do you believe that say the first living cell/ particle was created? How can something come out of nothing? What existed before that? Surely this is similar to the whole who created god ordeal. Idk man the whole thing is mind blowing to think about
    Science doesn't have a definitive explanation for it either. There are loads of theories, but I'm a student who's currently doing their GCSEs, not someone with PHDs in physics so I'm not nearly qualified to explain them, there will be loads of stuff on the internet if you're interested. (though the creation of a living cell isn't so mysterious)

    Anyway, this is I think the main way in which science and religion differ. Science says we don't know, but we will keep searching for the answer and in the future we will find it.
    Religion however doesn't seek to explain it but just makes up an explanation and gives some terrible reasoning for it and leaves it at that.
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    (Original post by ameehannah)
    Well it is my belief that God was not created per se but has, and always will exist, in other words he has /always/ existed. I think that's the part that many non believers and even believers, including myself, struggle to get their head around.
    Intelligent design in the universe doesn't necessarily imply this though. It might imply intelligence behind the universe, and that in itself is a pretty big leap, but to then think you can decide the entire nature of the intelligent entity purely based on the fact that the universe has something that resembles order to you is ridiculous mental gymnastics.

    Also how do you believe that say the first living cell/ particle was created? How can something come out of nothing? What existed before that? Surely this is similar to the whole who created god ordeal. Idk man the whole thing is mind blowing to think about
    There's a bunch of theories about how the first living thing came to be. I'd give that one a google if I were you.

    You're asking how something can come out of nothing while simultaneously believing in something that has apparently always existed, which is equally mind blowing to think about. If I knew anything about advanced quantum mechanics I'd probably be able to somehow explain the whole something from nothing thing but now I'm going into a tangent I know nothing about.
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    (Original post by BristolFresher15)
    Wait, what?!

    Sorry, I was under the impression I was talking to an intellectual theist. I'm done arguing with you.
    From their (using their as a non-gender-specific singular here) posts, it seems like although they are relatively intelligent, however extremely ignorant on everything to do with evolution.
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    (Original post by TheBirder)
    And the probability that a being that is complex enough to design that just came into existence is infinitesimally smaller.
    More details in 'The God Delusion' by Dr Richard Dawkins.
    The omnipotence, omnipresence, etc., of God means that He never 'came into existence'. He always existed, and will continue to exist.
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    (Original post by TheBirder)
    Science doesn't have a definitive explanation for it either. There are loads of theories, but I'm a student who's currently doing their GCSEs, not someone with PHDs in physics so I'm not nearly qualified to explain them, there will be loads of stuff on the internet if you're interested. (though the creation of a living cell isn't so mysterious)

    Anyway, this is I think the main way in which science and religion differ. Science says we don't know, but we will keep searching for the answer and in the future we will find it.
    Religion however doesn't seek to explain it but just makes up an explanation and gives some terrible reasoning for it and leaves it at that.
    Well to me religion and science work together to give in my opinion the "true picture". I and quite a number of Christians believe that God USED the Big Bang et voilà problem solved, hence giving logical reasoning that science alone or religion alone can't provide
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    (Original post by JM999)
    The omnipotence, omnipresence, etc., of God means that He never 'came into existence'. He always existed, and will continue to exist.
    This is the point that I simply don't understand. That is illogical and not possible.
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    I believe in Schopenhauer's concept of "the will", but no actual God or anything.
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    No. And anyone who does is degenerate or seriously retarded.
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    (Original post by ameehannah)
    Well to me religion and science work together to give in my opinion the "true picture". I and quite a number of Christians believe that God USED the Big Bang et voilà problem solved, hence giving logical reasoning that science alone or religion alone can't provide
    Yep, that is a fair point, and if you are prepared to disregard all of your ideas of God when science finds a better explanation then that's a reasonable point of view.
    I don't really see the point in making up an explanation though, in my opinion it's simply easier to say: 'we don't know yet, and I can't wait to find out!'
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    (Original post by JM999)
    The omnipotence, omnipresence, etc., of God means that He never 'came into existence'. He always existed, and will continue to exist.
    Proof? why is that even something you would think.
    Consider this, the odds I am a God, to you what are they?
    not worth considering right? you have no way of proving otherwise and the leap is just the same yet you believe there is another being with such abilities that you've never seen or talked to, and the reason?
    a feeling x religious text, both which give no actual evidence.
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    (Original post by TheBirder)
    Yep, that is a fair point, and if you are prepared to disregard all of your ideas of God when science finds a better explanation then that's a reasonable point of view.
    I don't really see the point in making up an explanation though, in my opinion it's simply easier to say: 'we don't know yet, and I can't wait to find out!'
    Regardless my beliefs stand firmly. I don't think science will ever find a better explanation. But hey we have differing opinions and that's fine 😄
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    (Original post by TheBirder)
    This is the point that I simply don't understand. That is illogical and not possible.
    Why? God created, and exists outside of, time and is therefore not affected by it. The problem you posed is only applicable to a material being, not a transcendent being that exists in neither time nor space


    Also, what do you believe about objective morality?
    We all believe (or should believe) that killing 6 million Jews during World War II was morally wrong. However, if the Nazis had successfully taken over Europe and convinced us that it was ok to commit this genocide, would it still be morally wrong?

    And what caused Big Bang, when according to the laws of physics and the conservation of mass, there would need to be some source of energy to start the Big Bang? What was this force?
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    I believe in Schopenhauer's concept of "the will", but no actual God or anything.
    Very fascinating i just had a read about that and it seems very interesting, any books about him you would recommend.

    Do you have any opinions on Nietzsche? as I believe in quite a few of his ideas or at least like them
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    (Original post by Defraction)
    There is evidence- look around you. Is it not a sheer fact that a tree has been designed, everything in nature has a purpose and this purpose couldn't have happened by chance. As the famous saying states: "Everything happens for a reason"- a reason that only a divine, transcendent being knows. We, as human beings, are too ignorant and selfish to actually know what the reason is. We see things in black and white, and evidently assume that the world is continuous process

    So, when we die, do you think we just die and that's it. Don't you think that the existence of evil and suffering, both moral and natural evil, and the fact that we have free will show that there must be a hidden reason for so. Why would we have free will if all of us were going to die and that's it. Surely, free will is a 'test'.
    Why would we have free will and we have the freedom to kill anyone we like as well as natural disasters killing us freely if life is not a test.

    Evidently, you disregarding a divine being is slightly stupid to be honest. It's obvious a divine being is evident as how can we explain the sheer beauty of the world if there is no God. Obviously, we have different conceptions of a 'God' and you would probably assume God would exist if there was no evil and suffering but evil and suffering is a test, an evident obstacle.

    Let's say the world was all perfect (and dull) as evil and suffering doesn't exist. How will we develop our qualities? A person withdrawing an obstacle of life(evil and suffering) will help them develop those necessary qualities. But, of course, we have different definitions of evil and suffering as an individual.

    God does exist but His nature is ultimately up to you and how you think he is to be.
    If there is a god why did he give the bullies at my school free will to make my life absolute hell, yes hell, for 5 years?!


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    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    Very fascinating i just had a read about that and it seems very interesting, any books about him you would recommend.

    Do you have any opinions on Nietzsche? as I believe in quite a few of his ideas or at least like them
    Just read a few of his essays. On ethics, suicide, slavery and Eastern philosophy he's really interesting. Just don't read any of his opinions of the female sex; it's really incredible how bad his arguments are for this subject.

    I've learnt a lot about Nietzsche, but never actually got round to reading him, so I can't really comment. I certainly get the whole nihilism thing though.
 
 
 
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