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    (Original post by EuanF)
    We're the leading partner in the Union, and the other countries help us acheive our goals.
    Sounds positively undemocratic lol



    Competition is the great motivator, however. The British empire wasn't built because we felt like it, we needed it to compete with other European empires. The same goes for virtually every invention borne of war.
    I'm not a capitalist (Or at least not a strict one) , and I think many of your assertions are wrong.On competition- the society we are shaped by and in turn create predetermines what we strive for. That is to say- competition strives because that is the system we have created- an immoral system where we for instance have the financial ingenuity of con men exploiting pensioners and smuggler exploiting refugees.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Sounds positively undemocratic lol
    Would be if we hadn't given them a referendum.

    Competition isn't neccessarily capitalism, it's just trying to gain superiority over others. To be the best. Not being content with mediocrity.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Indeed. But there is no appetite for a Swiss style system in the UK so that is a none starter.
    Are you sure about that? Our third largest party, UKIP, is strongly in favour of a move towards direct democracy.

    I guess this is where we diverge in basic ideology, then.
    If we lose this referendum and remain in the EU, I will consider myself nationless. My country has just consigned itself to being a mere federal state, and I will be forever governed by those I did not elect. As far as I'm concerned for then on, I have no democratic right.

    I am prepared to endure hardship to maintain my rights, be it war or economic downturn.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Would be if we hadn't given them a referendum
    That wouldn't change the system though unless you're a hypocrite as we are having a referendum on the EU.

    (I think both the UK and the EU are democratic)


    Competition isn't neccessarily capitalism, it's just trying to gain superiority over others. To be the best. Not being content with mediocrity.
    I'm familiar.

    For now, some degree of competition is neccessary but as an end goal i strive towards a cooperative societty.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    That wouldn't change the system though unless you're a hypocrite as we are having a referendum on the EU.
    We're not the leading partner in the EU. This referendum itself is perfectly democratic, even if the EU itself isn't.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    We're not the leading partner in the EU.
    it wouldn't be democratic for wales/NI/ Scotland though by your reckoning.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    it wouldn't be democratic for wales/NI/ Scotland though by your reckoning.
    Nah, it's democratic. They're well represented by the UK parliament and have their own federal parliaments. They elect those that make their laws, and have been offered referendums to leave.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Nah, it's democratic. They're well represented by the UK parliament and have their own federal parliaments. They elect those that make their laws, and have been offered referendums to leave.
    Tell that to the SNP!
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Are you sure about that? Our third largest party, UKIP, is strongly in favour of a move towards direct democracy.
    Of course - that is democracy. I would rather see our country run by coalition minority governments elected by those who voted for them compared to the bizarre arrangement we have now where a handful of people across the nation decide which of two parties has total power.

    (Original post by EuanF)
    If we lose this referendum and remain in the EU, I will consider myself nationless. My country has just consigned itself to being a mere federal state
    Where does that come from? We are not part of Schengen and never will be. Nor are we part of the Euro and never will be. And we already have in place an opt out to be part of any sort of EU superstate. So where does this idea that a vote IN will see us joining the United States of Europe come from?

    Even within Europe the federal state is not a done deal by a country mile. There are opponents to it in all member states. My feeling is it would not be acceptable to any nation state to see a federal Europe despite what others might say. This argument does seem to have been plucked out of no where. It certainly hasn't been in the forefront of EU politics over the last 5 - 10 years.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Nah, it's democratic. They're well represented by the UK parliament and have their own federal parliaments. They elect those that make their laws, and have been offered referendums to leave.
    No, they don't have their own Federal Parliaments. They have regional parliaments. You are getting confused. The two are very different.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Of course - that is democracy. I would rather see our country run by coalition minority governments elected by those who voted for them compared to the bizarre arrangement we have now where a handful of people across the nation decide which of two parties has total power.



    Where does that come from? We are not part of Schengen and never will be. Nor are we part of the Euro and never will be. And we already have in place an opt out to be part of any sort of EU superstate. So where does this idea that a vote IN will see us joining the United States of Europe come from?

    Even within Europe the federal state is not a done deal by a country mile. There are opponents to it in all member states. My feeling is it would not be acceptable to any nation state to see a federal Europe despite what others might say. This argument does seem to have been plucked out of no where. It certainly hasn't been in the forefront of EU politics over the last 5 - 10 years.
    If we vote in, we're admitting that - as a majority - we are a country of weak people, capable of being scared into surrendering our democratic rights, our dignity and our sovreignty to an unelected foreign power. We know that we are having laws proposed by a council without our democratic authority, that the collective will of the rest of Europe is being forced upon us, that they as a group may steal our resources and shame our people, and we consent to it because we're afraid. That in the eyes of the British people, a small amount of economic benefit is worth more than the collective struggle and sacrifice of the thousands who came before us. That the blood spilled carving out this blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England was all for naught. That those who strived to make the world a better place, and to make Britain a strong country, an independent country, a country to lead the world were wrong, and that her destiny was servitude. That those who value courage are in the minority, and those that would rather be safe than glorious are the majority.

    Those who would rather have safety than glory deserve neither.

    I planned on joining the RAF after university, but if we vote in I simply can't bring myself to do it. I would not be fighting for Britain, I would be putting my life on the line for a weak people and a rotten shell of a country. For an undemocratic, sinister, overreaching union that snuffed out the ancient flame of Europe. I'd genuinely be lost in the world. My identity as a British citizen is a large part of myself, and a point of personal pride. If we do consign ourselves to being a servile, pathetic federal state then I can identify no more with this new "Britain" than I can with Venezuela.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    If we vote in, we're admitting that - as a majority - we are a country of weak people, capable of being scared into surrendering our democratic rights, our dignity and our sovreignty to an unelected foreign power.
    It sounds great. But it is all sentimental clap trap. By staying in, we are admitting that, as a majority, the world is bigger than ourselves and than in order to prosper we need to cooperate with others. By staying in the EU, we have a voice at a powerful table and are not afraid to use our influence to change the way others do business with us.

    I understand that the world is still relatively new to you, but seriously, there is no place in this world where being alone is an advantage. In fact I can think of none - can you? When I look at my life and think of the strong times, I had family, friends and partners around. There were no good times when I was all alone.

    You eluded to the forces. Can you name one single conflict (with the exception of the Falklands) where the UK fought alone? Can you name one single company that manufactures a complex product without the aid of other companies and services? When was the last time a single individual came up with a significant technological breakthrough? A long time ago I will tell you. Things have changed. Britain is no longer an Empire and hasn't been for a long time. It has become a country of cooperation. Our power lies in our ability to sell ourselves the world over. A retreat from Europe sends a signal to the world that if we don't like the game, we are going to take our bat and ball (ironically manufactured in China) home; that we would rather run away and cry than try and change the rules to our advantage; that we are little Englanders, and that we look inward, fearful of what others might do to us, rather than working with them to achieve great things.

    Given your young age I find your views very sad. When I was at university, my first vote was to Tony Blair. I know it all went Pete Tong, but at the time bear with me. We had just had 17 years of oppressive Tory rule and he came along in a great wave of optimism. It was Cool Britannia, Education, Education, Education and Things Can Only Get Better. The future was bright. The reality is that it is still bright. It is just different. It is a shame you are so pessimistic about the future you feel the need to build a wall in the hope there might be a slice left for you.

    Good luck fellow!
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    It sounds great. But it is all sentimental clap trap. By staying in, we are admitting that, as a majority, the world is bigger than ourselves and than in order to prosper we need to cooperate with others. By staying in the EU, we have a voice at a powerful table and are not afraid to use our influence to change the way others do business with us.

    I understand that the world is still relatively new to you, but seriously, there is no place in this world where being alone is an advantage. In fact I can think of none - can you? When I look at my life and think of the strong times, I had family, friends and partners around. There were no good times when I was all alone.

    You eluded to the forces. Can you name one single conflict (with the exception of the Falklands) where the UK fought alone? Can you name one single company that manufactures a complex product without the aid of other companies and services? When was the last time a single individual came up with a significant technological breakthrough? A long time ago I will tell you. Things have changed. Britain is no longer an Empire and hasn't been for a long time. It has become a country of cooperation. Our power lies in our ability to sell ourselves the world over. A retreat from Europe sends a signal to the world that if we don't like the game, we are going to take our bat and ball (ironically manufactured in China) home; that we would rather run away and cry than try and change the rules to our advantage; that we are little Englanders, and that we look inward, fearful of what others might do to us, rather than working with them to achieve great things.

    Given your young age I find your views very sad. When I was at university, my first vote was to Tony Blair. I know it all went Pete Tong, but at the time bear with me. We had just had 17 years of oppressive Tory rule and he came along in a great wave of optimism. It was Cool Britannia, Education, Education, Education and Things Can Only Get Better. The future was bright. The reality is that it is still bright. It is just different. It is a shame you are so pessimistic about the future you feel the need to build a wall in the hope there might be a slice left for you.

    Good luck fellow!
    We don't have a "voice at a powerful table," we have eight ****ing percent of a vote.

    The future you propose is one of mediocrity. A people ruled by fear and money. No greater purpose, just trying to keep our heads above the water. Britain would no longer be a country, no longer an identity. Just an area of land. A population without pride.

    We do not need to be a servile, mediocre nation to fight a war. The USA never tried to diplomatically annex Britain, nor did France, nor did any of the Allies. The future is bright if we vote out - we'll have a chance. Things might not be great at first, but at least we're not admitting that we're too afraid to play the game and that we're backing out into the void for fear of losing.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    We don't have a "voice at a powerful table," we have eight ****ing percent of a vote.
    Correct. And does debate and dialogue not come before a vote? What is it we are doing before we cast our f***ing 0.00000000153% vote? Once we are out, we can cry from the sidelines, but there is no guarantee of an audience and we have 0% of a vote. So the EU can vote for whatever it likes and we just have to lump it.

    What a bizarre thing to pick up on? That we are whittering about democracy and sovereignty like it is really important when in reality, having a roof over your head and food in your belly is much more important and significant. I want to stay in the EU because I value my livelihood. I couldn't give a stuff about democracy. I have voted all parties in my time and nothing has changed. My vote is insignificant. But an out vote will bring the UK to its knees - simple as. And yes, my money is where my mouth is. Within a year of leaving the EU the UK economy will be in tatters as big business and money moves elsewhere to find somewhere a little more certain.

    Sure, you can argue that in the long term we will recover and I am sure you are right, but we haven't really recovered from the last downturn. I am not sure I could stomach another major recession right now.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    We don't have a "voice at a powerful table," we have eight ****ing percent of a vote.
    And yet somehow we'd do better at the WTO where we will get even less of a say.


    The future you propose is one of mediocrity. A people ruled by fear and money. No greater purpose, just trying to keep our heads above the water. Britain would no longer be a country, no longer an identity. Just an area of land. A population without pride.
    That's your opinion. I see a Britain comfortable and confident with itself. I see myself as simultaneously Welsh, British and European and a citizen of the world. Why do you need a nation state to latch onto? Britain is a powerful country but a United Europe would be the most powerful on the planet- and we could help shape a peaceful transition through world affairs outside the crude struggles of China and US interests.

    Even if we do leave things have changed. Globalisation has fundamentally changed the world we live in where we can talk to friends on the other side of the planet . Look at Russia, they're trying to resist globalisation and they're a joke- their population and economy is declining rapidly and they can barely invade Ukraine. Beneath their aggression and pomp they're afraid,
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Correct. And does debate and dialogue not come before a vote? What is it we are doing before we cast our f***ing 0.00000000153% vote? Once we are out, we can cry from the sidelines, but there is no guarantee of an audience and we have 0% of a vote. So the EU can vote for whatever it likes and we just have to lump it.

    What a bizarre thing to pick up on? That we are whittering about democracy and sovereignty like it is really important when in reality, having a roof over your head and food in your belly is much more important and significant. I want to stay in the EU because I value my livelihood. I couldn't give a stuff about democracy. I have voted all parties in my time and nothing has changed. My vote is insignificant. But an out vote will bring the UK to its knees - simple as. And yes, my money is where my mouth is. Within a year of leaving the EU the UK economy will be in tatters as big business and money moves elsewhere to find somewhere a little more certain.

    Sure, you can argue that in the long term we will recover and I am sure you are right, but we haven't really recovered from the last downturn. I am not sure I could stomach another major recession right now.
    And this. I'm a passionate pro European - and economies rise and fall but this one will be self administered. Angry young men with no dependents will weather financial difficulties. Not all of us are so lucky. This eurosceptic rugged individualism of nhs abolitionism, flat taxing, welfare slashers want to make a bonfire of the weak for their own sense of glory.

    The weak should not suffer what they must.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Correct. And does debate and dialogue not come before a vote? What is it we are doing before we cast our f***ing 0.00000000153% vote? Once we are out, we can cry from the sidelines, but there is no guarantee of an audience and we have 0% of a vote. So the EU can vote for whatever it likes and we just have to lump it.

    What a bizarre thing to pick up on? That we are whittering about democracy and sovereignty like it is really important when in reality, having a roof over your head and food in your belly is much more important and significant. I want to stay in the EU because I value my livelihood. I couldn't give a stuff about democracy. I have voted all parties in my time and nothing has changed. My vote is insignificant. But an out vote will bring the UK to its knees - simple as. And yes, my money is where my mouth is. Within a year of leaving the EU the UK economy will be in tatters as big business and money moves elsewhere to find somewhere a little more certain.

    Sure, you can argue that in the long term we will recover and I am sure you are right, but we haven't really recovered from the last downturn. I am not sure I could stomach another major recession right now.
    Of course democracy and sovereignty matters. Without it, we're just animals. This sets us apart from the rest of the creatures that just want to eat and not die. Zoon Politikon.
    As for the economy thing, many big traders and businesses have come out in favour of a Brexit. The pound sterling devaluing slightly will make it easier for us to export, and give the City a bit of extra growth.


    (Original post by Davij038)
    And yet somehow we'd do better at the WTO where we will get even less of a say.
    A damn sight more than the seat we don't have.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    ...nhs abolitionism, flat taxing, welfare slashers.
    One of the major arguments for voting out is recovering the £11.5bn we send to the EU every year. Single biggest cut to the deficit in a long time. We'd be able to fund our NHS again.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    One of the major arguments for voting out is recovering the £11.5bn we send to the EU every year. Single biggest cut to the deficit in a long time. We'd be able to fund our NHS again.
    I'd advise you to watch the Trasury committee grill Vote Leaves Dominic Cummings. Suffice to say they shot that proposition to pieces.

    (The idea that a Boris government with the most right wing brexit cabinet will give extra money to the NHS when they've previously said they'd abolish it is laughable- vote leave have also said they would cover the loss of funding in all other areas ie in farming, research, education etc...all this in a downturned economy. The chair of the treasury committee summed it up well 'sounds like alladddins cave to me'
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Of course democracy and sovereignty matters. Without it, we're just animals.
    Hardly. My point is that it is somewhat of an illusion. In reality we don't have any say whatsoever in the running of out country. Chances are you live in a safe seat so voting is practically irrelevant. And sovereignty. What the hell is that. It is such an abstract and removed concept from the daily grind it barely features at all.

    Google, Facebook, Kellogs and the BBC have more impact on my daily life than Westminster, the EU or any other political organisation.

    I will leave you with one nugget of wisdom passed down to me and absolutely true.

    "When I was 18 I thought I knew everything. When I was 21 I knew I knew everything. When I was 30 I knew I knew nothing."

    Good luck in your life!
 
 
 
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