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    what really annoys me about this thread is that the thread starter has made no interaction with the thread repliers.

    I find that slightly insulting.

    If you are going to start a thread the least you can do is interact with the people who make an effort to reply to your question.

    Students should be polite.

    Manners Maketh the Man (or woman).
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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    what really annoys me about this thread is that the thread starter has made no interaction with the thread repliers.
    All the interaction is in the ISOC thread, where Tawheed has had the consequences of his/her folly pointed out to him/her. This was a thread with an ulterior motive - to create a (very shaky) pedestal from which to look down on atheists.
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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    what really annoys me about this thread is that the thread starter has made no interaction with the thread repliers.

    I find that slightly insulting.

    If you are going to start a thread the least you can do is interact with the people who make an effort to reply to your question.

    Students should be polite.

    Manners Maketh the Man (or woman).
    The OP has also yet to make an appearance on his original thread, where others have also responded and participated in the thread linked below. As the other user mentioned, posts pertaining to the topic seems to be rather preferred in the safe space of the ISOC thread.

    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...195447&page=15
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    (Original post by Cobalt_)
    1. The question wasnt about atheism. Has nothing to do with it so not sure what your point is. A question related to atheism would have been; How did the universe begin etc.
    2. This was a thread he made in response to a previous thread. Where he compared incest to homosexuality and then claimed atheists support incest in ISOC.
    3. When you ask a question which has nothing to do with a belief structure ofcourse you're going to get criticised. How naive of you. Atheism is the lack of a belief of a deity has there is no evidence to support such a claim. Where does incest fit into that again?

    Fact is this thread was only made to generalise one persons view of incest to all atheists. http://prntscr.com/b41bx3

    Stop with this Islam victim status. Getting so old.
    How many times do I have to repeat this. The Quran and Islam can be, should be and will be criticised.
    I simply stated that in Islam incest is encouraged which is it, blame interpretation all you like. Clearly my interpretation of Islam is the issue here... not Islam itself.
    It does indeed transpire that you're not familiar with the notion that I am putting forth. My point is that he was asking atheists for their views on this matter, not asking what atheism has to say on the matter, please understand the difference.

    Again, your third point isn't consistent with what I am saying. Of course, the user will inevitably be criticized but I am saying, why his beliefs? His beliefs aren't relevant here. Again, a simple yet misunderstood point by yourself.

    Ha! I should stop because apparently it's 'getting so old'. I shall repeat myself, such drivel is rarely found.

    You are indeed entitled to your choice to attempt to criticize Islam, but like I have said previously, there's no relevance to Islam here.

    What verse do you claim promotes incest? And how have you arrived at the conclusion that it does indeed promote incest (do you have other opinions from scholars to confirm your claims?)
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    It is relevant as the OP asked the question merely so that he could use the results (inaccurately) to arrogantly look down on atheists in the ISOC thread.
    If this is to be true, then I do disagree with the intention for this thread.

    However, the link your proposing that Islam is somehow involved, is frankly absurd. His post would inevitably be criticized here, not his beliefs.
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    (Original post by mil88)
    It does indeed transpire that you're not familiar with the notion that I am putting forth. My point is that he was asking atheists for their views on this matter, not asking what atheism has to say on the matter, please understand the difference.

    Again, your third point isn't consistent with what I am saying. Of course, the user will inevitably be criticized but I am saying, why his beliefs? His beliefs aren't relevant here. Again, a simple yet misunderstood point by yourself.

    Ha! I should stop because apparently it's 'getting so old'. I shall repeat myself, such drivel is rarely found.

    You are indeed entitled to your choice to attempt to criticize Islam, but like I have said previously, there's no relevance to Islam here.

    What verse do you claim promotes incest? And how have you arrived at the conclusion that it does indeed promote incest (do you have other opinions from scholars to confirm your claims?)
    Stop picking and choosing what you take from my replies.
    I wont repeat myself again because quite frankly I dont have the time. He asked for an atheist response to generalise. Regardless the link between the two is irrelevant and has been mocked.

    The irony:
    "My point is that he was asking atheists for their views on this matter, not asking what atheism has to say on the matter"
    "Of course, the user will inevitably be criticized"

    So, we both agree addressing this to all atheists was stupid and both understand why he was criticised. Asking atheists is exactly what I put fourth, not atheism has to say. I fail how to see why the need between atheism and atheists needed to be pointed out, I said that he was critcised for asking atheists. Asking atheists is irrelevant. Everyone has a different morality.

    His beliefs:
    The reason I critcised his belief point of view is because he clearly stated that he personally thought incest was wrong and that atheists morally think its acceptable. If you read the previous thread it was implied that Islam forbids incest and homosexuality for similar reasons.

    Clearly you were not involved in the previous thread otherwise you wouldnt be asking why "his beliefs have anything to do with this". Funny because considering you're attempting to be patronising one would assume you were involved.

    Quran 4:23.
    Most if not all scholars agree with it, a simple google search could find me multiple scholars agreeing with it. Most of the islamic world today conforms by it. If that isnt enough... its written in black and white in the Quran.

    Still must be my interpretation right?
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    (Original post by mil88)
    If this is to be true, then I do disagree with the intention for this thread.

    However, the link your proposing that Islam is somehow involved, is frankly absurd. His post would inevitably be criticized here, not his beliefs.
    I have mentioned this several times and linked you with a screenshot providing the evidence for it. It is true, simple as.

    Hence why hes been critcised so much on here.

    Islam was mentioned because this thread led on to a previous thread where he used Islam to justify why homosexuality is wrong, claiming the Quran doesn't support incest or homosexuality.

    This thread was just to mock atheists in ISOC.

    Simple as, end of argument
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    (Original post by mil88)
    he was asking atheists for their views on this matter, not asking what atheism has to say on the matter, please understand the difference.
    If you'd taken the trouble to read even the first page of the thread before taking it upon yourself to lecture others as if they had misunderstood, you would know that the OP specifically asked what people thought of the matter as atheists, not what they thought as people who just happen to be atheists. See posts #8, #11, and #20.

    And if there's still any doubt that he was seeking to discredit atheism by associating it with the belief that a socially taboo practice isn't inherently immoral, see here: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...9#post64769189.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    It is relevant as the OP asked the question merely so that he could use the results (inaccurately) to arrogantly look down on atheists in the ISOC thread.
    Thank you. GOAT :adore:
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    Although that's not something I would do and I do have opinions on it, I wouldn't say thats not 'morally acceptable' just a lot of other things I don't want to say.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    If you'd taken the trouble to read even the first page of the thread before taking it upon yourself to lecture others as if they had misunderstood, you would know that the OP specifically asked what people thought of the matter as atheists, not what they thought as people who just happen to be atheists. See posts #8, #11, and #20.

    And if there's still any doubt that he wasn't seeking to discredit atheist by associating it with the belief that a socially taboo practice isn't inherently immoral, see here: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...9#post64769189.


    Cant rep but +1.
    Just sad what people do to push their religious agenda by making us look bad :unimpressed:
    Because everyone knows atheism is just about promoting incest, having no morals and believing we came from nothing. :laugh:
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    (Original post by Cobalt_)
    Cant rep but +1.
    Just sad what people do to push their religious agenda by making us look bad :unimpressed:
    Because everyone knows atheism is just about promoting incest, having no morals and believing we came from nothing. :laugh:
    Thanks. You can always count on tribal religious people to jump to the defence of their fellow believer without half a thought for what has actually happened.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Thanks. You can always count on tribal religious people to jump to the defence of their fellow believer without half a thought for what has actually happened.
    Yup, never fails to disappoint.
    Gotta love it.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Is a 25 year old son, who fully consents to engage in sexual activity with his 55 year old father, according to your idea of morality, acceptable?
    your avatar, nimr, it sounds familiar, could you remind me of who he is? i know that he was martyred
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Is a 25 year old son, who fully consents to engage in sexual activity with his 55 year old father, according to your idea of morality, acceptable?
    Of course not. It's revolting and it undermines society.

    As an atheist, I have no obligation to support something just because religion also opposes it; I judge each issue on its merits.

    Homosexuality harms no one, it is illogical and mentally ill to oppose it. Incest clearly does; it is prohibited and it will continue to be prohibited because everyone can see the difference between it and homosexuality
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    (Original post by Cobalt_)
    Stop picking and choosing what you take from my replies.
    I wont repeat myself again because quite frankly I dont have the time. He asked for an atheist response to generalise. Regardless the link between the two is irrelevant and has been mocked.

    The irony:
    "My point is that he was asking atheists for their views on this matter, not asking what atheism has to say on the matter"
    "Of course, the user will inevitably be criticized"

    So, we both agree addressing this to all atheists was stupid and both understand why he was criticised. Asking atheists is exactly what I put fourth, not atheism has to say. I fail how to see why the need between atheism and atheists needed to be pointed out, I said that he was critcised for asking atheists. Asking atheists is irrelevant. Everyone has a different morality.

    His beliefs:
    The reason I critcised his belief point of view is because he clearly stated that he personally thought incest was wrong and that atheists morally think its acceptable. If you read the previous thread it was implied that Islam forbids incest and homosexuality for similar reasons.

    Clearly you were not involved in the previous thread otherwise you wouldnt be asking why "his beliefs have anything to do with this". Funny because considering you're attempting to be patronising one would assume you were involved.

    Quran 4:23.
    Most if not all scholars agree with it, a simple google search could find me multiple scholars agreeing with it. Most of the islamic world today conforms by it. If that isnt enough... its written in black and white in the Quran.

    Still must be my interpretation right?
    How else do you expect me to reply?

    No, we both don't agree that it was 'stupid'. All I said was, the user will inevitably be criticized, which happens in almost all threads associated with religion.

    You're changing your words? This is what you said: ' A question related to atheism would have been; How did the universe begin etc. '

    Yes of course 'Asking atheists is exactly what I put fourth, not atheism has to say.'

    The link must be distinguished because atheism has nothing to say, hence why others mocking him and resorting to ridiculing his beliefs, where as individual atheists do have something to say, which is what the thread starter wanted to ask.

    My point was simply, in this thread, he was simply asking a question to the atheistic community, which only few actually responded appropriately. I see no issue with criticizing him due to his apparent intentions against fellow atheists.

    I am certainly not attempting to be patronizing. But I'll take that as a compliment, for now anyway.

    4:23 doesn't promote incest, it merely distinguishes between which you cannot marry. Your point would be more valid if it says something of the lines ' you should marry thou cousins...'. Please note the difference between encouraging and condoning. Please also note the definition for incest itself (from a simple google search):

    sexual relations between people classed as being too closely related to marry each other . (the crime of having sexual intercourse with a parent, child, sibling, or grandchild

    Please can you prove that the cousins are too close to marry each other. If not (what I assume), then this cannot be deemed as incest.

    And you didn't support your point with the opinion of scholars, just to inform you.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    If you'd taken the trouble to read even the first page of the thread before taking it upon yourself to lecture others as if they had misunderstood, you would know that the OP specifically asked what people thought of the matter as atheists, not what they thought as people who just happen to be atheists. See posts #8, #11, and #20.

    And if there's still any doubt that he was seeking to discredit atheism by associating it with the belief that a socially taboo practice isn't inherently immoral, see here: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...9#post64769189.
    First of all, the misunderstanding was of my post by the other user, which is pretty clear.

    Yes, the user asked atheists what their opinion was? That's what I said? Of course it was specific to atheists, that's not what I am pointing out here. The notion of criticizing the user for such an action is acceptable, however ridiculing their beliefs is unwarranted and unjust here.
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    (Original post by mil88)
    Yes, the user asked atheists what their opinion was? That's what I said? Of course it was specific to atheists, that's not what I am pointing out here.
    It seems that you are the one missing the distinction now - it was not, as you asserted earlier, a case of the OP asking what atheists generally think (he was doing the highlighted, not what you've claimed):

    (Original post by mil88)
    he was asking atheists for their views on this matter, not asking what atheism has to say on the matter, please understand the difference.
    He repeatedly asked them to frame their answers as, 'as an atheist, I believe...' so that he would be able to draw a link between atheism and a belief that incest is not immoral, and then use the shock value of that to peddle the usual, 'atheists are degenerate creatures who will do anything because they don't fear a god' narrative in the I-Soc.

    That you continue not to acknowledge this fact even after I linked you his I-Soc post suggests that this is a situation where it's pointless to argue further with you; it seems to be your unstated belief that the OP, a (Shia) Muslim, must necessarily be in the right. You may as well save the mental gymnastics you will include in your reply - I won't be reading it.
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    (Original post by mil88)
    How else do you expect me to reply?

    No, we both don't agree that it was 'stupid'. All I said was, the user will inevitably be criticized, which happens in almost all threads associated with religion.

    You're changing your words? This is what you said: ' A question related to atheism would have been; How did the universe begin etc. '

    Yes of course 'Asking atheists is exactly what I put fourth, not atheism has to say.'

    The link must be distinguished because atheism has nothing to say, hence why others mocking him and resorting to ridiculing his beliefs, where as individual atheists do have something to say, which is what the thread starter wanted to ask.

    My point was simply, in this thread, he was simply asking a question to the atheistic community, which only few actually responded appropriately. I see no issue with criticizing him due to his apparent intentions against fellow atheists.

    I am certainly not attempting to be patronizing. But I'll take that as a compliment, for now anyway.

    4:23 doesn't promote incest, it merely distinguishes between which you cannot marry. Your point would be more valid if it says something of the lines ' you should marry thou cousins...'. Please note the difference between encouraging and condoning. Please also note the definition for incest itself (from a simple google search):

    sexual relations between people classed as being too closely related to marry each other . (the crime of having sexual intercourse with a parent, child, sibling, or grandchild

    Please can you prove that the cousins are too close to marry each other. If not (what I assume), then this cannot be deemed as incest.

    And you didn't support your point with the opinion of scholars, just to inform you.
    Back to this again are we.
    As hydeman has pointed out the OP himself "you would know that the OP specifically asked what people thought of the matteras atheists, not what they thought as people who just happen to be atheists. See posts #8, #11, and #20."

    Also, you responded from point 3 of mine which was: "When you ask a question which has nothing to do with a belief structure ofcourse you're going to get criticised"
    Taking my words out of context. Typical.


    You didnt respond to why I mentioned Islam, guess you realised that you didnt know the full story. Ill accept your apology for jumping in and assuming.

    "My point was simply, in this thread, he was simply asking a question to the atheistic community, which only few actually responded appropriately. I see no issue with criticizing him due to his apparent intentions against fellow atheists."

    So then you can see why few responded.
    Answered your own question there mate.


    Actually no, the definition isnt as simple as a google search. Very ignorant.
    Other defintions out there state:
    sexual intercourse between two persons commonly regarded as too closely related to marry
    The crime of sexual relations with a person defined by statute as too closely related.
    Sexual relations between persons who are so closely related that their marriage is illegal or forbidden by custom.

    Just a few I found^.
    Note there are many places in the world where marrying your first cousin is against the law.

    Most would agree incest is the sexual relation between two people who are blood related. Which fits in the category of first cousins Which from an islamic point of view is perfectly acceptable and wide spread, after all the consequences are the same as what one may expect. They both may have been raised together socially and sexual relationships will lead to genetic defeats in future children (fact). Prophet mohammed himself married cousins which should be a pretty good sign that it is perfectly allowed and accepted. After all the prophet was perfect, right?

    Like I said, you can find 99% of Scholars agreeing with this.... even Naik agrees. Its a universal fact, I'm sorry but I dont appreciate the playing dumb. Fact is, 1st marriage is allowed.
    Fact is, some will see that as incest.

    If you ask me, theres little difference between father/son and man/first cousin incest. Both cause genetic defeats and both have been socialised and brought up together. Both are horrible.

    However is still acceptable in Islam.


    Anyway, I'm done replying.
    Seems like you cant admit when you're wrong. I posted the reason I mentioned Islam , I gave you the screenshot of the OP and you still are trying to argue with me about atheist vs atheism despite being corrected by multiple users.

    I quoted the quotes in the Quran which allow for 1st cousin marriage and therefore incest to most peoples definition. I think you need to educate yourself more about the topic before you try to defend it, clearly its a wide spread view accepted by all scholars and you trying to tell me I've misinterpreted is just a disservice to yourself and your own belief. Lets face it, scholars know more that you right. They must do considering you're so quick to ask about their opinion.

    Funny isnt it, how the Quran allows something with so much biological consequences. Its almost like the Quran rejecting something which is biological natural... oh wait.

    I dont have time to debate further, exams to revise for. You being so one sided despite the OP's clear incentive just shows what a waste of time me replying would be. You bring no logical or rational thought to the topic, just misinformed statements and slight differences in the definitions of certain words.
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    Probably not, but it's sexy.


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