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What the moderate muslim thinks (WORLDWIDE survey) watch

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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    I can and have done. The argument goes around and around and around.
    I've looked through this thread, and time and time again in each of your posts you've demonstrated a sizeable ignorance of not just Christanity and the Bible, but of Islam and the Koran.

    You've shown you don't even understand the difference in relevance of the OT and NT... That's besides the point that the bible is a collection of letters about God/Jesus, and you are encouraged to interpret meaning in them. Islam is the complete opposite. The Koran is a book written by one person, and is the unadultered word of god, with no room for error (as it so nicely points out in the very start).

    I suggest you go and learn more about religions before you try and build an argument using them.

    All of this is besides the point. Christians haven't killed people in the name of Christ for hundreds of years. The last crusade was a long time ago. And if they were it wouldn't justify Islamic killings. In my opinion all religion needs to go, it's just a coincidence that Islam is the most cancerous.

    Edit:
    Just as an example for you, Ireland is one of the most catholic countries in Europe. They recently voted to legalise gay marriage. Meanwhile polls on Muslim populations in the UK say that the majority of Muslims here not only don't want gay marriage, they actually want homosexuality banned. How can you stick up for this ideology?
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    (Original post by FCB)
    I've looked through this thread, and time and time again in each of your posts you've demonstrated a sizeable ignorance of not just Christanity and the Bible, but of Islam and the Koran.

    You've shown you don't even understand the difference in relevance of the OT and NT... That's besides the point that the bible is a collection of letters about God/Jesus, and you are encouraged to interpret meaning in them. Islam is the complete opposite. The Koran is a book written by one person, and is the unadultered word of god, with no room for error (as it so nicely points out in the very start).

    I suggest you go and learn more about religions before you try and build an argument using them.

    All of this is besides the point. Christians haven't killed people in the name of Christ for hundreds of years. The last crusade was a long time ago. And if they were it wouldn't justify Islamic killings. In my opinion all religion needs to go, it's just a coincidence that Islam is the most cancerous.
    Okay, for a start, you clearly cannot read. I have said that I have engaged in discussions about this issue of Islam and Muslims on multiple threads, on multiple occasions. That was the point I was making.

    Secondly, I understand the relevance of the New Testament over the Old Testament. I study the Bible in considerable depth at A-Level; I feel I have a solid enough grounding in it and I've actually read it from cover to cover myself, as I have the Qur'an. The Qur'an and the Hadith's both have signs of diverse authorship, just saying.

    I agree, I wasn't saying that it justified Islamic activities. You are illustrating, like others before you, that you do not understand the clear distinction I am making. I have made it time and time again. I think the world is better off without religion also, but you're not going to wipe it out. It's that simple.
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    (Original post by FCB)
    Edit:
    Just as an example for you, Ireland is one of the most catholic countries in Europe. They recently voted to legalise gay marriage. Meanwhile polls on Muslim populations in the UK say that the majority of Muslims here not only don't want gay marriage, they actually want homosexuality banned. How can you stick up for this ideology?
    Again, you are literally just proving my point. I am not sticking up for the 'ideology'.
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    Again, you are literally just proving my point. I am not sticking up for the 'ideology'.
    Well by telling people to stop criticizing it (which is what you have more or less done from what I have seen) you are indirectly sticking up for the ideology.
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    (Original post by brainhuman)
    Well by telling people to stop criticizing it (which is what you have more or less done from what I have seen) you are indirectly sticking up for the ideology.
    That is not at all true. You are simply manipulating something for your own ends. I stick up for the rights of muslim people to practise their religion privately and freely. People do not make distinctions often in these threads. They slam the whole for the the actions of a few. Crticising the ideology is not a problem, the people themselves, it is.
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    That is not at all true. You are simply manipulating something for your own ends. I stick up for the rights of muslim people to practise their religion privately and freely. People do not make distinctions often in these threads. They slam the whole for the the actions of a few. Crticising the ideology is not a problem, the people themselves, it is.
    I think as much as we blur the line between the ideology and those who follow it, you blur the line, too.

    I ask this of you. If the religion Islam wasn't there and now in our age a Muhammed comes along. Says a bunch of stuff, conquers a bunch of land, and presents something that is the Koran. Would you think people had the right to follow this warlord? Because that is more or less what ISIS is doing at the moment. Almost everything they do can be found somewhere in the Koran. Why is it ok to follow such an ideology just because it has been around so long and is considered a "religion".
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    Please see the list of quotes from the NT I replied to Ivybridge concerning the fact that the law has been replaced and fulfilled. This is undisputable doctrine.

    A sinner needs to stop sinning but first he needs to believe in Jesus and receive Him into their hearts because only the Holy Spirit gives a man strength to live a life pleasing to God. The NT is very clear that without the intervention of God all men are slaves to sin and Satan

    Why just pick on practising homosexuals when even from that verse you quoted it mentions idolators, adulterers, thieves and the greedy? In Revelations it mentions liars being amongst those who also go to the lake of fire.

    My point is that God considers all sin as deserving death hence why it says in the NT ''the wages of sin is death.'' It does not say ''the wages of just homosexuality is death.''
    Exactly, a sinner needs to stop sinning. Engaging in homosexual relations is a sin, if a homosexual has a life of homosexual sex knowing it is a sin, they will just be forgiven then? In which case why bother trying not to sin at all? Yes there was a list of sins who's punishment was death...as I mentioned some others in brackets, but the point is you don't do them, or at least try your best not to.
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    Why do you continue to defend a group of people who follow a belief system that says your sexual orientation and acts of love as immoral and whose radical elements would execute you for it?
    But I thought all religions think homosexuality is wrong. So you can't just blame one religion.
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    (Original post by HanSoloLuck)
    You think you know better than the Pope or the Queen about Christianity?

    By matter of fact, their interpretation and order of import for contradictory passages trumps everyone else's. They say not to kill or attack homosexuals, it's really not a matter for debate.
    Hahaha the Queen? What on God's (lol) Earth gives the Queen any sort of religious authority? Her and her lineage are hardly divinely given the right to rule, bar our idiotic "God save the X" chants, but then we ask God to help people in all walks of life, and what gives her interpretation some automatic trump card over everyone else? Does she have a direct line to God the peasants below her don't? The Pope might claim that I suppose, but I had no idea the Queen was so privileged. She has a reasonable amount of free time to study the Bible I guess, but then academics on the subject do it for a living, so she's certainly in no special position.

    I also didn't claim they said it was okay to attack homosexuals in the street, just making it clear homosexual acts are morally unacceptable and you'd struggle to allow them to be legal in a society which followed doctrine to the t.

    The current Pope knows he needs to change with the times so acts a little more liberal, albeit he doesn't say homosexuality is okay.

    Of course his recent predecessors were quite clear on the topic, here's Benedict XVI

    "Homosexual acts ‘close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."

    Anyway it's no big deal tbh. Though I always think it's a shame the Bible is printed with the OT in it, these days none of it applies (cheers Redhead) and the tales which are unbelievable (like Jonah and the Whale) and now just parables and never happened, so really we could save so many trees and so much ink if we didn't include the OT, I think God would approve of the environmental argument.
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    Why do you continue to defend a group of people who follow a belief system that says your sexual orientation and acts of love as immoral and whose radical elements would execute you for it?
    No!!! Not all muslims are like that!! I have great frieds and i know their parents and they are extremely chill
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    Why's that?
    People would be more integrated and not as backwards :moon:
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    (Original post by Ranveen Pandhal)
    No!!! Not all muslims are like that!! I have great frieds and i know their parents and they are extremely chill
    But what kind of argument is that?????

    You have met a select few Muslims living in a Western state. What do you think the majority of parents would be like in a Muslim country. What do you think some Muslims in the UK are like?

    This argument "not all muslims", "not true muslims", - you can't just pick and choose, these people consider themselves Muslims, and so all Muslims have to ask themselves why they believe in an ideology that produces so much hate and discrimination.

    You can't just say "not all are like that".
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    (Original post by *Alisha*)
    But I thought all religions think homosexuality is wrong. So you can't just blame one religion.
    This is exactly the point that none of you (you being either Muslims or those defending them) understands or wants to understand. When was the last time a gay was put in prison (or worse) in a Muslim country? When the last time in a Christian country?

    Yes there are some evil, violent teachings in the Old Testament just as they are in the Koran. But the difference is Muslim countries live by the Koran. We don't live by the Old Testament.
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    (Original post by brainhuman)
    But what kind of argument is that?????

    You have met a select few Muslims living in a Western state. What do you think the majority of parents would be like in a Muslim country. What do you think some Muslims in the UK are like?

    This argument "not all muslims", "not true muslims", - you can't just pick and choose, these people consider themselves Muslims, and so all Muslims have to ask themselves why they believe in an ideology that produces so much hate and discrimination.

    You can't just say "not all are like that".
    Hey I didn't mean it that way!! I just said that the question was so stereotypical that it grouped all muslims and btw i live in kenya!!!
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    (Original post by joey11223)
    Exactly, a sinner needs to stop sinning. Engaging in homosexual relations is a sin, if a homosexual has a life of homosexual sex knowing it is a sin, they will just be forgiven then? In which case why bother trying not to sin at all? Yes there was a list of sins who's punishment was death...as I mentioned some others in brackets, but the point is you don't do them, or at least try your best not to.
    Yes, this has already been established that a sinner needs to stop sinning and enter repentance in order to have a relationship with the one true God and Saviour. However, like I keep saying, nowhere is it encouraged in the NT for Christians to kill homosexuals or other sinners, because if we did we would be both murderers and huge hypocrites. Jesus set us the example when he didn't stone the women caught in adultery and instead challenged the people who were going to stone her to death to look at their own sin. He also preached the golden rule 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you' which encompasses all of Christianity really. The 613 laws of the OT were for the nation of Israel under a rule of theocracy at that time and have since been superceded by Christ's work on the cross. Even Jesus himself said that he came not to judge the world but to save the world. Do you think you are superior to Jesus?

    (Original post by *Alisha*)
    But I thought all religions think homosexuality is wrong. So you can't just blame one religion.
    Not all religions do, it's pretty ambigious in far eastern religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism I believe.

    (Original post by Ranveen Pandhal)
    No!!! Not all muslims are like that!! I have great frieds and i know their parents and they are extremely chill
    I know, hence why I asked the OP for statistics
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    Do you think you are superior to Jesus?
    Tbf I've never met the bloke, only read some stuff his fans wrote.

    I will tell you though although I won't pretend I like figs, I do respect fig trees to be merciful to them when it just isn't their season to fruit. I mean if I could do magic and wanted to show it off at that moment I could magic a fig onto the tree to prove my powers, but to smite a poor fig tree down so others can't eat those figs when the season comes? Poor form IMO. (Mark 11:12-14, Matthew 11:18-22)

    Bar that though he seems the decent sort.
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    (Original post by joey11223)
    Tbf I've never met the bloke, only read some stuff his fans wrote.

    I will tell you though although I won't pretend I like figs, I do respect fig trees to be merciful to them when it just isn't their season to fruit. I mean if I could do magic and wanted to show it off at that moment I could magic a fig onto the tree to prove my powers, but to smite a poor fig tree down so others can't eat those figs when the season comes? Poor form IMO. (Mark 11:12-14, Matthew 11:18-22)

    Bar that though he seems the decent sort.
    Remind me again who you are to judge Jesus as being immoral?

    Also, it's a fig tree, it's not like it feels pain or suffers or anything.
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    Remind me again who you are to judge Jesus as being immoral?

    Also, it's a fig tree, it's not like it feels pain or suffers or anything.
    Who are you to judge all other faiths as false and yours as correct, despite theirs existing for rather longer than the Abrahamic faiths. I assume you did find Christianity later in life and were not brought up Christian, since obviously that would very much weaken any argument, since all childresn brought up in a certain doctrine will generally believe it to be correct. Hindu, Muslim, Taoist, Jainist etc.

    As for the fig tree....very little care for our world, I'd have thought you'd value all life, plants are living organisms after all, and of course even a single tree has an expansive ecosystem, other creatures would have been negatively impacted. Could he not have made the tree fruit miraculously to show he is a nurturer and bringer of life, not of death? Of course he is perfect, so we cannot question anything, our place is but to kneel in reverence, I understand that.

    Anyhow it's been fun but we'll start going around in circles, I'll write to you from the lake of fire (though it could be figurative...or is it? Interpretation) when the time comes.
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    (Original post by joey11223)
    Who are you to judge all other faiths as false and yours as correct, despite theirs existing for rather longer than the Abrahamic faiths. I assume you did find Christianity later in life and were not brought up Christian, since obviously that would very much weaken any argument, since all childresn brought up in a certain doctrine will generally believe it to be correct. Hindu, Muslim, Taoist, Jainist etc.

    As for the fig tree....very little care for our world, I'd have thought you'd value all life, plants are living organisms after all, and of course even a single tree has an expansive ecosystem, other creatures would have been negatively impacted. Could he not have made the tree fruit miraculously to show he is a nurturer and bringer of life, not of death? Of course he is perfect, so we cannot question anything, our place is but to kneel in reverence, I understand that.

    Anyhow it's been fun but we'll start going around in circles, I'll write to you from the lake of fire (though it could be figurative...or is it? Interpretation) when the time comes.
    The Bible has spades of archeological evidence to support the historical events and facts it has recorded and even modern historians consider it to be an accurate and reliable indicator of events that happened. Furthermore, it isn't about religion, it's about a personal relationship with God that happens when you accept him into your heart, not about rigidly following a list of rules in the vain hope you will go to heaven. Christianity is the only religion that doesn't teach that you have to get into heaven by works, which is why it's different.

    Lmao at you trying to tell me what I should and shouldn't believe. I have a healthy respect for life but if God wants to curse a fig tree then let him because it's none of my business and he's the one who created it anyway. He can do what he wants with his own creation, can't he?
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    (Original post by joey11223)
    Hahaha the Queen? What on God's (lol) Earth gives the Queen any sort of religious authority? Her and her lineage are hardly divinely given the right to rule, bar our idiotic "God save the X" chants, but then we ask God to help people in all walks of life, and what gives her interpretation some automatic trump card over everyone else? Does she have a direct line to God the peasants below her don't? The Pope might claim that I suppose, but I had no idea the Queen was so privileged. She has a reasonable amount of free time to study the Bible I guess, but then academics on the subject do it for a living, so she's certainly in no special position.

    I also didn't claim they said it was okay to attack homosexuals in the street, just making it clear homosexual acts are morally unacceptable and you'd struggle to allow them to be legal in a society which followed doctrine to the t.

    The current Pope knows he needs to change with the times so acts a little more liberal, albeit he doesn't say homosexuality is okay.

    Of course his recent predecessors were quite clear on the topic, here's Benedict XVI

    "Homosexual acts ‘close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."

    Anyway it's no big deal tbh. Though I always think it's a shame the Bible is printed with the OT in it, these days none of it applies (cheers Redhead) and the tales which are unbelievable (like Jonah and the Whale) and now just parables and never happened, so really we could save so many trees and so much ink if we didn't include the OT, I think God would approve of the environmental argument.
    The Queen is the head of the main religion of the UK, as is the Pope with regards to many European countries.

    They are both the 'go to' authorities for Christianity in the West, the idea that homosexuals are to be arrested or inhibited or attacked is not a mainstream interpretation within Christianity, it is a mainstream interpretation of the Quran. These are not idiosyncratic differences, contrasting one with the other is dishonest. Turning this into a discussion about Christianity as backhanded apologetics for the Islamic faith is subversive.

    Not all religions are equal, some are worse than others, Islam is currently fueling homophobic assaults and murders all over the world at the moment on a scale that warrants it be the center of criticism for this issue of homophobia.

    I'm sure homosexuals with and sense of self preservation will not want us focusing on the religion that thinks they are going to hell over the religion that wants to send them there, priorities, get some.
 
 
 
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