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Countdown to the Referendum: What We Should All Know About the EU vs. UK Independence watch

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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    And then back to
    Indeed.

    This article seems to fit well in this case: worse than a goldfish.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2...anks-to-smart/
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    (Original post by Michael3C)
    Just to clarify Davij038 that Trump isn't supporting Brexit, he just said in an interview that he thinks Britain will leave the EU
    Say what you like about the man, he's a shrewdie! Gotta love #Bremain clutching at straws trying to play the man not the ball, and when that fails, trying to attack our backers! Pathetic. If that's what you're into, try this for size #Remain:

    NEWS: EU referendum: Lord Sugar accused of racism over blasting 'immigrant' Gisela Stuart's Brexit call
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    Say what you like about the man, he's a shrewdie! Gotta love #Bremain clutching at straws trying to play the man not the ball, and when that fails, trying to attack our backers! Pathetic. If that's what you're into, try this for size #Remain:

    NEWS: EU referendum: Lord Sugar accused of racism over blasting 'immigrant' Gisela Stuart's Brexit call
    Deary me, remain have constantly played the ball, pulling you up on your lies regarding costs, democracy, legislation, Turkey, EU army etc.

    How about leave playing the man though? Numerous references by you to 'elitists' and the 'establishment'.



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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    Say what you like about the man, he's a shrewdie! Gotta love #Bremain clutching at straws trying to play the man not the ball, and when that fails, trying to attack our backers! Pathetic. If that's what you're into, try this for size #Remain:

    NEWS: EU referendum: Lord Sugar accused of racism over blasting 'immigrant' Gisela Stuart's Brexit call
    you're a danger to this country and you don't even know it :rofl:
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    (Original post by james813)
    yeah, gove and Johnson may be doing it for their careers. But look at it more generally and only those challenging the establishment are prepared to speak out for brexit
    Well said. We're not sticking our necks out for nothing! Personally I can imagine no way in which I stand to derive any direct benefits from a #Brexit; far from it, I'm not making myself at all popular with friends/acquaintances and family assets will be put at risk

    Still the right thing to do, must put the long-term national interest ahead of all short-term/selfish concerns. Vive Britannia! :horse:
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Deary me, remain have constantly played the ball, pulling you up on your lies regarding costs, democracy, legislation, Turkey, EU army etc.

    How about leave playing the man though? Numerous references by you to 'elitists' and the 'establishment'.
    Every informed opinion is instantly dismissed as part of some Illuminati conspiracy designed to **** over the poor. "Well they're the ELITES, all of their research has obviously been faked just to serve their own interests, even though I have no idea what those interests might be!!!"

    You can't reason with people like this. Anything they don't like just bounces off them.
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    (Original post by james813)
    He absolutely did say he thinks Britain would be better out of the EU, but (unlike Obama) said it wasn't a recommendation how to vote
    Trump more responsible in his rhetoric than Obama? Who'd have thought! :mmm:

    if he is the next president and is in favour of brexit, that can only be good for getting trade deals done
    Hmm, not so sure about that one - the Oval Office has a lot less power than most of us appreciate. US deep government, and the Fed, run the show, and their special interest puppeteers might not be so thrilled! (hence their ilk have come out with the last-ditch threats in the EU referendum e.g. George Soros and Jacob Rothschild)
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    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    A lot of the points in your first post..
    You call Eddie Izzard a member of "project fear" but..
    Please re-visit the OP and feel free to offer your constructive criticism :yy:
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Stop playing the 'little guy fighting against the system' card
    The establishment is pitched against us, at the behest of the Crony Capitalist European political 'leaders' (including Cameron/Osborne), in turn at the behest of the people who really run the show, the central banks/their shady special interests :ninja:
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    The establishment is pitched against us, at the behest of the Crony Capitalist European political 'leaders' (including Cameron/Osborne), in turn at the behest of the people who really run the show, the central banks/their shady special interests :ninja:
    YOU ARE THE ESTABLISHMENT.
    Johnson, Gove and Murdoch could not be more establishment if they tried.


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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    leave campaign have been complaining about the EU being Hitler
    You're right, we should also have noted that Hitler was arguably more directly accountable to his people :yy:

    millions of Turks will come here within months
    Let's hope you're wrong about that! What we do know is that the EU Commission has now signed off on VISA free travel for Turks in the EU and that the EU is poised to advance an agreement with Turkey post UK Referendum (check the news)

    Apparently pointing out very real risks counts as project fear
    Not at all. Discussing a range of risk-based scenarios is responsible, but the type (worst-case-scenarios, to the exclusion of alternatives and any intellectually honest engagement with negative outcomes associated with remaining), and way they've been (as if indisputable fact), presented, is why most of the population now agrees that remain have presented a negative, deliberately fear inducing case, and not much besides. Thank God for the composure, rationality, and discernment of the Great British people
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    (Original post by Michael3C)
    Again, that isn't supporting something, that is giving an opinion on something
    Not sure Obama got the balance right on that one.. :rolleyes:
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    Thanks to all who considered the information we put forward and voted in the national interest!

    (Original post by 10001)
    Every day there is a new scare story
    Project Fear failed, project reality won the day :yy:

    Obama says Britain will be at back of the queue for a trade deal
    BBC News: Obama: Special relationship remains despite Brexit

    The world is not going to end if we leave the EU!
    You'd have thought it might with all the whining and protesting on the part of the sorry Bremainer brigade! Sore loser, sour grapes :sad:
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The world also isn't going to end if we remain
    Indeed not, but the economy would have been sacrificed to the failed single currency/due to fiscal malfeasance on the part of other states, and sovereignty + Democracy to the failed project of political union (which will now be rammed home to prevent further dissent)

    the leave campaign have such a victim mentality by claiming remain are project fear
    Not at all. Fair, balanced, and reasonable rhetoric was welcome, and engaged with. OTT hyperbolism and alarmist nonsense really had no place in the debate, and no doubt turned a lot of on-the-fence voters right off Osborne and his cronies

    What can we 'make of ourself ' that we can't do in the EU. Go on be specific
    See OP FYR :yy: We are free from the tyranny of Juncker et al, free I tell thee! :woo:
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    (Original post by Michael3C)
    something tells me OP is ready and waiting to shut the argument down
    Correct assessment. Fortunately, we won the intellectual argument, and hope/logic prevailed over fear/irrationality :horse:
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    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    Of course the world won't end
    This, from the poor, vexed little fellow who squawked: “We can’t cope!”

    the man who knows a lot about America (the President of America) thinks that it'll take a while for the UK to reach a trade deal with them
    Amen to that! We don’t want no TTIP BS rushed through and imposed on us! In other news: Obama: Special relationship remains despite Brexit

    Scaremongering is reporting lies. Like the OP has done
    If you’re going to assert that I’m a liar you damned well better have some evidence to back it up, sunshine

    (Original post by Michael3C)
    "More generally, there is a risk that leaving the EU will be globally interpreted as a narrow, xenophobic, backward-looking thing to do"
    "Leaving the EU will be globally interpreted as a narrow, xenophobic, backward-looking thing to do"
    He was right, and that’s just a bitter pill that we’re going to have to take (unless/until others set themselves free/the EU collapses). Don’t see anyone levelling the same criticism at Switzerland, by the way, who have just withdrawn their membership application (days before the referendum – establishment/media kept it very hush hush) stating that only ‘lunatics’ would consider joining now!

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Then why bring him up?
    If someone as fervently committed to European unification as Napoleon/Hitler couldn’t succeed then what hope have relatively benign technocratic dictators/totalitarians? A: Not much, hence history/current affairs suggests that the EU will fall apart, sooner or later. Capeesh?

    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Excellent post Foo
    Thank you kindly :top2:

    We won the intellectual argument, and seized victory from the jaws of defeat! :horse:
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    This, from the poor, vexed little fellow who squawked: “We can’t cope!”

    If you’re going to assert that I’m a liar you damned well better have some evidence to back it up, sunshine
    I don't think we can cope outside of the EU. That's why it doesn't look as if we'll properly leave.

    Your original post on this thread was full of rubbish. Just look at the corrects others and I made. Even in its heavily edited form, it still makes some very questionable statements.

    It is how the Leave campaign won. As their biggest donor said: "What they [Strategists] said early on was ‘facts don’t work’ and that’s it. The remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It just doesn’t work. You have got to connect with people emotionally. It’s the Trump success."

    So basically, ignore facts, play on people's emotions = win. *
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    you pretended to be pro Europe
    No pretence, I look favourably on our European neighbours, friends, and allies

    how you are so well travelled
    I’m not terribly well travelled, but have lived en France

    you are nothing more than an anti-Europe bigot
    You realise this is a technical impossibility, right? Europe: continent full of a diverse range of people, views and opinions. Bigot: someone arbitrarily intolerant of the (particular) opinions of (a select group) others

    campaigning to improve the things you don't like, you say leave
    We tried to renegotiate, and spark reform, but patently there was no appetite for this among Juncker and his cronies, so we walked. It’s a mistake to stay in a one-sided, dictatorial, and increasingly troubled/abusive, relationship. Deal with it

    You want to enjoy all the benefits but not the drawbacks
    Not really. Primarily, we wanted to #TakeControl

    (Original post by ByEeek)
    do you not need rules and regulations to keep a level playing field across an area of free trade?
    Up to a point, yes

    Would you be happy with me building cars that belched out high emissions and had no safety standards, or produced chocolate marketed as chocolate be that had no cocoa in it, or employed staff on terms that gave me an advantage over other companies?
    Indeed not

    My understanding of trade deals is that they are rather specific
    They can indeed be. On the flip-side, see what I note in the OP about the biggest exporters to the EU, FYR

    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    cars which produce high emissions contribute to the terrible air quality seen in many areas of the UK
    Indeed, and I’m sure there will be plenty of political pressure (not least from Khan) with respect to any significant lowering of related standards

    If high polluting vehicles like the Defender have to go to clean up the air, then so be it
    Think we need to be smarter than that e.g. do we really need Champagne Socialists of David Mitchell’s Hampstead set rolling around towns in SUVs? Probably not. Do ruralites need larger vehicles with higher horsepower/CO2 emissions, probably so

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    he accuses the remain camp of being project fear
    Project fear seems to have run over beyond the referendum. Surely you must be able to see it by now!?

    Cannot wait for the UKIP and right wing Tory nutters to lose
    Oops. This is embarrassing

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Disagree. EU is no more undemocratic than UK. At least they have proportional voting
    Not convinced you understand the machinations of the European Project

    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    It is still completely wrong. The EU has not voted to diminish our influence at all
    If they’re after direct influence at the security council level then they are, inherently, supporting a cause that would diminish (at best, dilute) our standing at the top table

    (Original post by Davij038)
    And this is where your supposed ideology free pluralism comes to the fore- where political ideas different to yours are unforgivable
    If by unforgivable you mean patently less effective/workable, then yes, that is the nature of pragmatism*

    I don't care what is good for non-existent entities
    So you do not support or defend particular principles, like self-determination? Ok then

    Behold
    Perhaps you’d care to explain how the links you gave demonstrate your claim, providing specifics. Throwing links at me doesn’t advance debate

    'short run instability' is that fear mo geeing too?
    Nope e.g. as you well know: it’s a combination of a high probability event + adequate probabilistic contextualisation + reasonably measured rhetoric

    it is a fact that no EU countries have declared war on each other
    It’s also a fact that Russia didn’t send a flock of combat-trained meerkats to invade Skegness. God bless the EU :dunce:

    just your spin on what the IN campaigners have been saying
    Nope, if you look, objectively, at the way the financial media have run with Project Fear in the build up you’ll see I’m bang on point. The nature of the initial shock of Brexit, and the perpetuation of fearmongering in related media since, bear testament to this assessment. So solly :^_^:
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    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    They say it through innuendo
    Nice duck *quack*

    when the time comes for them to be considered, the UK will have a veto
    No we won’t because: 1) The Great British people voted out; 2) The EU will most likely have collapsed by the time Turkey’s in a position to join

    Turkey doesn't have the EU over a barrel like some suggest
    Pretty sure they do, hence able to extort €6,000,000,000 from the spineless cretins, just, like, that

    The EU still has entry requirements which would be wrong to overlook
    EU has hardly held a single member fully to inclusion criteria historically. They make the rules, bend them, re-write the rulebook, and repeat

    (Original post by Brusselsknowbest)
    what's the point of being in the club if you just buy everyone's drink and stand in the corner?
    IKR? Thankfully, Great Britain shall no longer be one of Juncker’s little lap dogs! :yeah:

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    polling did not suggest 12 million Turks 'will come'
    Quoting 'will come' when the passage you quoted clearly states keen to come* is patent deliberate misrepresentation, very poor form

    they are not joining
    Turkey and the EU would appear to feel differently

    because Rupert Murdoch who is campaigning to leave is really anti-establishment isn't he?
    He’s in business to make money and, demonstrably, the smart money was on Brexit

    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    Obama is the worst US president in history. Hilarious
    Matter of opinion but although his administration has been fairly steady at important junctures, he’s certainly not the best liked/most effective leader in the eyes of many informed observers. Furthermore, his recent rhetoric directed towards this country, its leadership, and the (apparently not-so) special relationship, very much blotted his copy book and showed him, like Corbyn, to be far less 'principled' than his myth would suggest
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    decent militant atheists such as Richard Dawkins are all pro EU
    So any atheist who isn’t known to you, but was for Brexit, is arbitrarily " indecent"? This is one of the main reasons y’all lost the referendum: a superior attitude. Please, get over yourself. Lots of love, the people of Great Britain

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Gove .. claiming the EU was an elitist stitch up
    That suddenly renders him anti-establishment? There’s a difference between the elites (people at the top of public, private, and third sectors) and the establishment (public/authoritative institutions), and asserting that the elites were trying (as we all know they were) to stitch up the referendum (a la Project Fear, and the like) is not a reasonable basis to assume that he is even anti-elitist, more generally, per sea. The elites should exercise restraint, and not insult/corral the public, that’s the point, and one well made/that proved effective as the British people can tell when they’re being led up the garden path, and certainly aren’t keen on it, hence we rejected negative, propagandist claptrap that did our nation down and voted out!

    (Original post by Davij038)
    CAP in particular is bad
    Represents over 50% of total EU expenditure; ergo, knowing how un-reformable the EU is, and how several countries (like France) would block any attempt to meaningfully reform the CAP, your position as a Bremainer is logically untenable

    the way the migration crisis has been handled (though short of mining the sea I have yet to hear an alternative)
    Again, you appear to be suggesting that it is impossible for the EU to resolve the migrant crisis and restore order/security to parts of the continent; ergo, your stubborn support for Bremain appears woefully self-defeating

    Staying in will not solve all our problems. Only the Outters are presenting such a vision
    Direct, categorical quote from the Vote Leave leadership, please (or else retract this hyperbolic nonsense)

    (Original post by Davij038)
    only the most idiotic of brexiters
    Insulting the opposition is another reason you lost, famalam :yy:

    the LSE produced a study showing this to be false
    What, precisely, did the LSE study conclude, pray tell?

    Stop supporting crony capitalists and passing the buck
    I’m pretty much the most consistent critic of Crony Capitalism on here so I’d love to know where you’ve pulled this from. I don’t know what your background is but if you understand anything of economics then you’ll know that liberal capitalistic systems rest on the laws of supply and demand e.g. increase supply (unskilled labour) and you see a response in the price level (unskilled wages) assuming non-perfectly elastic demand/no immediate and completely counter-acting concomitant demand-side changes

    I don't see how Hungary leaving will help anything
    Hungary are, as you may have gathered, now to hold a referendum on this migratory madness, which could put them at odds with the EU

    you're in the minority of the minority that gets genuinely upset that the EU might levy a tax on bankers bonus's and may stop us importing weapons to Saudi Arabia
    Direct, categorical quotes, please (or else retract this fictitious nonsense)

    Federalise the EU!
    Pretty much the only way it’s going to survive now. Think they should let all members have a referendum on federalisation and just get on with it, before the whole lot stacks and sends the continent back into post-war style malaise

    the brexit gang think we'll get a better trade deal with the U.S. I'd say that's it's important
    1. No trade deal = a better trade deal than TTIP

    2. Obama has eaten humble pie since the result, and backed the **** up

    some genuinely believe it is in Britains interest to remain
    See above re: untenable positions; this was not a viable contention where anyone informed and intellectually honest was concerned – with the exception of those paralysed by extreme risk aversion (cowardice) and/or with little/no confidence in the UK

    do you really think the many wealthy donors to brexit are being purely altruistic?
    My sense is that many of them are pragmatists who would put the national interest ahead of narrow self-interest. What I find really interesting is the suggestion that the likes of master manipulator/instability maker Soros came out of the shadows to back Bremain yet have profited from Brexit!

    They also sponsor half the Tories campaigning for brexit and will continue to operate in the event of brexit
    I’m a Fourth Way pragmatic pluralist meaning that I want us to transition away from conservative vs. reformist politics, and on from the politics of compromise/populism, towards that of sustainable consensus building e.g. via the abolition of private funding of political parties, the implementation of PR, and the eventual abolition of party politics altogether! You will not find many more disturbed by the role of special interests than I

    (Original post by Davij038)
    we are dependent on immigration
    The city is also dependent on cocaine. Neither represent a healthy state of affairs, and neither cannot be addressed by way of structural change. Regardless, Vote Leave did not campaign on a zero immigration ticket, they were very clear about this

    (Original post by ib_hopeful)
    ComRes analysis showed that those old enough to remember WW2, 75+ generation more inclined REMAIN than younger oldies
    Did ComRes analysis also predict leave winning? :yeah:

    (Original post by Nurne)
    Luckily there aren't enough xenophobes in the country to allow this country to leave the EU. Those who don't know will swing to remain and remain will win the referendum. Probably about 55% to 45%. And if we are very lucky UKIP and Britain First would disband
    Boy, wouldn't like to have been you, waking up to the reality on Independence Day! :laugh:
 
 
 
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