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    (Original post by bearo99)
    First of all, stop taking the moral high-ground on this issue. I'm not part of a 'socio-politically uneducated preschool mentality', and neither should my realism of a growing volatile right-wing nationalism in Europe be branded as communist. But there we go. I never said democratically elected right-wing groups were destroying democracy either, just said they are a pile of ****.

    The EU is a prime example of democracy WORKING. Compare the EU's 'bureaucracy' with anti-democracy authoritarianism of the past; we should be grateful of a democratic body that has been able to unite Europe following centuries of conflict. There's no ignorance in supporting a body that has helped grow democracy throughout Europe (Eastern Europe most notably); the ignorance is in leaving it as you believe in a sense of idiotic self-entitlement about Britain's world stature. Our place is working with other countries. Our place is working in Europe.
    Ah yes, the functioning democracy that's caused countless riots and helped get Ukraine invaded.
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    (Original post by drbluebox)
    Is that a joke, trolling or just ignorance? the unemployed will be the ones voting leave since they are the ones affected by immigration more (competition both in work and finding cheap accomodation) since the immigrants won't live in the rich areas.

    Its the rich that vote stay as they want a cheap workforce and won't have to live in arears where it affects jobs, NHS, schools etc.
    True, but there is a direct correlation between age and voting intention. So preventing the young from voting (mostly the unemployed) would mean brexit winning.
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    (Original post by drbluebox)
    Is that a joke, trolling or just ignorance? the unemployed will be the ones voting leave since they are the ones affected by immigration more (competition both in work and finding cheap accomodation) since the immigrants won't live in the rich areas.

    Its the rich that vote stay as they want a cheap workforce and won't have to live in arears where it affects jobs, NHS, schools etc.
    Remain i will be voting. Better for the economy.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Ah yes, the functioning democracy that's caused countless riots and helped get Ukraine invaded.
    Hate to break it to you mate, but Ukraine isn't in the EU.
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    (Original post by drbluebox)
    Is that a joke, trolling or just ignorance? the unemployed will be the ones voting leave since they are the ones affected by immigration more (competition both in work and finding cheap accomodation) since the immigrants won't live in the rich areas.

    Its the rich that vote stay as they want a cheap workforce and won't have to live in arears where it affects jobs, NHS, schools etc.
    Once again, just false. Im not sure if I can have a discussion with someone that's trying to sell to me that the most undemocratic Europe in 50 years has a working democracy. Im stunned.

    It doesnt really matter what I say. What matters are facts. The EU is vastly undemocratic, and here you are trying to lecture me about democracy in the EU.
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    (Original post by bearo99)
    Hate to break it to you mate, but Ukraine isn't in the EU.
    Did you pay literally any attention to the Ukrainian revolution? Euromaidan?
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Did you pay literally any attention to the Ukrainian civil war? Euromaiden?
    Ofcourse he didn't. There seems to be a very disturbing trend in the regressive side of the political spectrum of blatantly ignoring occurances that do not fit the agenda.

    Remember, there's only one reality...if you like it or not. The problem is that it will catch up if you ignore it.
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    (Original post by Jebedee)
    If only we could prevent the unemployed from voting. Brexit would win by a landslide.
    I would say its the other way around. And you know **** democracy, only teh rich white men of the Uk who hold land and title can vote. since the poor/unemplyed dare to question their choice.
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    (Original post by Galaxie501)
    Ofcourse he didn't. There seems to be a very disturbing trend in the regressive side of the political spectrum of blatantly ignoring occurances that do not fit the agenda.

    Remember, there's only one reality...if you like it or not. The problem is that it will catch up if you ignore it.
    I will say for one, mate, you're argumentatively insulting rhetoric will get you nowhere. Give it a rest.
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    (Original post by rimstone)
    I would say its the other way around. And you know **** democracy, only teh rich white men of the Uk who hold land and title can vote. since the poor/unemplyed dare to question their choice.
    Is that why there are so many non white politicians and mayors around?
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    (Original post by bearo99)
    I will say for one, mate, you're argumentatively insulting rhetoric will get you nowhere. Give it a rest.
    You have the audacity to claim I insulted you while calling me an idiot in your very first post towards me? Are you dillusional? Im also sorry if you're offended by culturally insensitive hetero-normative bigoted sexist homophobic islamophobic "insulting rhetoric" of mine. (To put it in SJW language).

    If you spread factually incorrect information then you should take responsibility for it and expect someone to come along to correct you.
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    (Original post by Galaxie501)
    Once again, just false. Im not sure if I can have a discussion with someone that's trying to sell to me that the most undemocratic Europe in 50 years has a working democracy. Im stunned.

    It doesnt really matter what I say. What matters are facts. The EU is vastly undemocratic, and here you are trying to lecture me about democracy in the EU.
    Did you quote the wrong person? I was referring simply to the movement of EU immigrants and since the poor don't want them as it creates competition and drain on services they would vote exit over business owners who just want cheap labour and competition for jobs as they won't be effected by problems.

    Either way in past 8 years I have lived in areas of high Polish population and seen the decline in local workforces, where I grew up a local factory was or should I say still is 100% Polish workforce to the point the company got fined for not hiring British workers so they got around the quota by firing British workers in trial periods so they could claim they had them, and as far back as 2006 owners made management learn Polish to communicate with their staff

    Where I live now is basically "little Poland" people are moving out of the ex Council estate in high numbers as they are fed up of being the only native English speakers in blocks of flats, and the young men (women seem to be quiet) acting like stereotypes getting drunk all the time having loud parties keeping people up, and their justification of their attitude is "this is how we do it in Poland" well you are in the UK now so have some respect, a local park is now out of bounds for young women especially as perverted foreign men stand about and make sexual comments to women or follow them, local graveyard which is next to where many Polish stay since they joined the EU gets graverobbed or drunken Polish men acting like idiots there.

    By the way I am not racist towards Polish it is just they are the most common immigrant we get, my relative has a lot of problems with high numbers of Romanians in her area with identical stories.

    I could literally write pages of problems I have had with local Polish people, and considering I have lived in 6 towns in 7 years and had identical problems each time all with Polish then I think its more than a one off final thing is in the last housing estate I lived which again was mostly Polish, all the local shops be it Asda, Poundland, even takeaway staff and delivery drivers were all Polish!
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    (Original post by drbluebox)
    Did you quote the wrong person?
    Yeah, I think I did. Sorry in that case.

    I was mainly quoting Bearo99 for his ignorant views, so I dont know how that got in there.
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    (Original post by Galaxie501)
    You have the audacity to claim I insulted you while calling me an idiot in your very first post towards me? Are you dillusional? Im also sorry if you're offended by culturally insensitive hetero-normative bigoted sexist homophobic islamophobic "insulting rhetoric" of mine. (To put it in SJW language).

    If you spread factually incorrect information then you should take responsibility for it and expect someone to come along to correct you.
    Just because I express liberal views does not make me a 'social justice warrior' or whatever. So much for the liberal youth.

    One thing I would like to know, since you're not veering from the incorrect 'insult-to-democracy' concept, is what about the economy? The EU provides over 50% of the UK's trade, banks and high-level industry professionals have all threatened to stop trading here and working here if we leave the EU - how do you argue against that? Our economy will be in dire straights.
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    (Original post by bearo99)
    Just because I express liberal views does not make me a 'social justice warrior' or whatever. So much for the liberal youth.

    One thing I would like to know, since you're not veering from the incorrect 'insult-to-democracy' concept, is what about the economy? The EU provides over 50% of the UK's trade, banks and high-level industry professionals have all threatened to stop trading here and working here if we leave the EU - how do you argue against that? Our economy will be in dire straights.
    As a fellow liberal, wouldn't you agree standing up for our principles of liberty and democracy are more important than economic bribery?
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    As a fellow liberal, wouldn't you agree standing up for our principles of liberty and democracy are more important than economic bribery?
    No.
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    (Original post by bearo99)
    No.
    Not very liberal then, are you
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    (Original post by JavaScriptMaster)
    Okay, yea maybe the EU gives us less freedom but it's not that bad, I don't feel enslaved by the EU and most of the time I forget that England is even an EU member.

    The real problem is with trade, like you said it would be hindered but no matter how strong the UK is, we won't be able to trade freely with the EU, there will be import/export taxes on so many things that we sell so obviously, our trading partners in Europe will shift their attention to France, Germany and Spain... WHY? because they can trade with those countries for free, why spend extra money just to trade with the UK?

    I know that Norway is 'doing OK' without the EU but their population is tiny compared to the UKs and they have Oil reserves that the EU wants to buy from them regardless of increased tax, England does not have the same level of natural resources, also Norwegians have a higher salary on average but everything is super expensive and the taxes are ludicrous... If it weren't for high taxes, high salaries and low population, Norway's economy would be in the toilet.
    Why trade with the UK? Because they have something to sell and we want to buy? Based on your logic there would be next to no trade without FTAs.

    As for Norway, they only rank 1 on the HDI and LPI (the Swiss being #3 and 2 respectively), and you know what, both lists are heavily non-EU. They also have a higher cost of living, yes, but that's what PPP is for and guess what, still more prosperous (as if #1 on LPI didn't give that away) and their taxes are actually very similar to our own.

    Oh, and don't forget that before their last referendum on membership they were told that if they didn't join they would be destroyed, just like if we leave we will be destroyed, if we didn't join the euro we would be destroyed, if we left the ERM we would be destroyed, etc. I mean, these people really do have an excellent record of forecasting economic annihilation...
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)

    Oh, and don't forget that before their last referendum on membership they were told that if they didn't join they would be destroyed,
    Who said that? And how do you know? How old were you in 1994? Gimme some evidence or I don't believe you
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    (Original post by JavaScriptMaster)
    Who said that? And how do you know? How old were you in 1994? Gimme some evidence or I don't believe you
    Are you seriously telling me that to know something you have to have been alive at the time...

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...Q7hy2KazmvF-2Q



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