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TTIP- remain/undecided side please take note and read this watch

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    You'll grow up one day and be pragmatic. Abstract concepts like sovereignty are meaningless. It's far better to have real, tangible ends like worker protections than abstract concepts.

    Besides any trade deal we sign, will involve giving up sovereignty.
    Ah, bring out the condescension, that's typical of establishment people and authoritarians, always the same. I'm afraid to say I will never see being a member of that club as pragmatic, we can argue about pragmatism vs philosophical themes and which is more valid, but it's academic because even on your criteria, 'pragmatism not idealism', the EU still loses based on our entire history and the status quo right now. And the Eu is full of misguided idealism, as well as more cynical forces. You are not just voting to remain in the EU, you are also voting for a total end to the possibility of any political change in our own domestic politics for decades. Whereas Brexit could spurt a democratic revolution, it's about belief(just look what happened with the SNP rise) When we are tied to a Southern Europe ravaged by accelerating climate change, when you learn of our history, and you learn of the myths that have been sold about what it can protect you from and how it's benefiting the UK, you will rue voting to remain, and what you gave to future generations, that is of course unless you are spiteful and want to screw them, that wouldn't surprise me given the people above us.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    You'll grow up one day and be pragmatic. Abstract concepts like sovereignty are meaningless. It's far better to have real, tangible ends like worker protections than abstract concepts.

    Besides any trade deal we sign, will involve giving up sovereignty.
    Trade deals surrender sovereignty :confused:

    You do realise you have to conform to the other parties rules whether you have a FTA or not?

    And you still seem incapable of defending this idea that the EU protects human rights, you've simply moved on to shoving your fingers in your ears.

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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Ah, bring out the condescension, that's typical of establishment people and authoritarians, always the same. I'm afraid to say I will never see being a member of that club as pragmatic, we can argue about pragmatism vs philosophical themes and which is more valid, but it's academic because even on your criteria, 'pragmatism not idealism', the EU still loses based on our entire history and the status quo right now. And the Eu is full of misguided idealism, as well as more cynical forces. You are not just voting to remain in the EU, you are also voting for a total end to the possibility of any political change in our own domestic politics for decades. Whereas Brexit could spurt a democratic revolution, it's about belief(just look what happened with the SNP rise) When we are tied to a Southern Europe ravaged by accelerating climate change, when you learn of our history, and you learn of the myths that have been sold about what it can protect you from and how it's benefiting the UK, you will rue voting to remain, and what you gave to future generations, that is of course unless you are spiteful and want to screw them, that wouldn't surprise me given the people above us.
    I'm not really sure how you can view only the EU side as the 'establishment' when Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Rupert Nurdoch are leading the Brexit campaign.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I'm not really sure how you can view only the EU side as the 'establishment' when Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Rupert Nurdoch are leading the Brexit campaign.
    So? Sometimes different people politic coalesce over a certain issue, nothing illogical about that, because it's about nuance and complexity. I can't stand knee jerk tribalism because it so frequently misses the point and so frequently can't see the wrong it's doing. A perfect example is how Hijacking of the labour party by economic thatcherites(actually to the right of her on tax, lessening social mobility too) who are perceived as doing more for the poor than the Tories by default. They have damaged democracy and more insidiously created inequality and lack of social mobility over 13 years governance.
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    (Original post by otester)
    TTIP will destroy the remaining public services and allow GMO to take over, if that's what you want, vote IN.
    allow GMO to take over?
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    So? Sometimes different people politic coalesce over a certain issue, nothing illogical about that, because it's about nuance and complexity. I can't stand knee jerk tribalism because it so frequently misses the point and so frequently can't see the wrong it's doing. A perfect example is how Hijacking of the labour party by economic thatcherites(actually to the right of her on tax, lessening social mobility too) who are perceived as doing more for the poor than the Tories by default. They have damaged democracy and more insidiously created inequality and lack of social mobility over 13 years governance.
    Democracy is a means not an ends.
    If we leave the eu we will become bigger Thatcherites, not lesser ones. You dislike Thatcherites yet you're about to put a bunch of huge thatcherites into government.

    You are far too idealistic for your own good. Turkey voting for Christmas you are. I can understand the far right populist nutjobs like JD voting brexit, but to see those on the left willing to cut their nose off to spite their face and catapulting Boris into no10 is sickening.

    People like you mean we will have Boris Johnson and the hard right of the tories leading this country. People like you are willing to sacrifice workers rights for abstract concepts. Grow up and learn to be pragmatic.

    You're dangerously naive. Disturbingly so.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Democracy is a means not an ends.
    If we leave the eu we will become bigger Thatcherites, not lesser ones. You dislike Thatcherites yet you're about to put a bunch of huge thatcherites into government.

    You are far too idealistic for your own good. Turkey voting for Christmas you are. I can understand the far right populist nutjobs like JD voting brexit, but to see those on the left willing to cut their nose off to spite their face and catapulting Boris into no10 is sickening.

    People like you mean we will have Boris Johnson and the hard right of the tories leading this country. People like you are willing to sacrifice workers rights for abstract concepts. Grow up and learn to be pragmatic.

    You're dangerously naive. Disturbingly so.
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    the irony of someone calling democracy abstract but claiming rights aren't
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    the irony of someone calling democracy abstract but claiming rights aren't
    I never said democracy is totally abstract, I said freedom and sovereignty are.

    Workers rights are however tangible, like a right to sick pay- that's a real tangible right.

    A right to 'freedom' or 'sovereignty' is not. They're abstract, fluffy concepts.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I never said democracy is totally abstract, I said freedom and sovereignty are.

    Workers rights are however tangible, like a right to sick pay- that's a real tangible right.

    A right to 'freedom' or 'sovereignty' is not. They're abstract, fluffy concepts.
    Why is a right tangible, and sovereignty not? Both are abstract human concepts. I can violate your rights whenever I want, nothing is stopping me aside from personal decency.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Why is a right tangible, and sovereignty not? Both are abstract human concepts. I can violate your rights whenever I want, nothing is stopping me aside from personal decency.
    Having sick pay is a tangible absolute right which you have guaranteed by law. There is no relativity, you just have it. If you are Ill you can be paid- a tangible right.

    It's easy to measure.

    A right to sovereignty is abstract and relative. It's not something we all have as individuals or something objective. It's a subjective issue. Saying 'we can make our own laws' is relative, because there are always constraints and things we cannot do. Likewise it's not us making our own laws, it's a government elected on less than 40% of the popular vote making them.


    I prefer concrete, tangible rights guarantee like a minimum wage rather than abstract concepts like sovereignty and freedom which in reality are not felt by the population.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Having sick pay is a tangible absolute right which you have guaranteed by law. There is no relativity, you just have it. If you are Ill you can be paid- a tangible right.

    It's easy to measure.

    A right to sovereignty is abstract and relative. It's not something we all have as individuals or something objective. It's a subjective issue. Saying 'we can make our own laws' is relative, because there are always constraints and things we cannot do. Likewise it's not us making our own laws, it's a government elected on less than 40% of the popular vote making them.


    I prefer concrete, tangible rights guarantee like a minimum wage rather than abstract concepts like sovereignty and freedom which in reality are not felt by the population.
    What is stopping me from violating your rights other than abstract law? I could quite easily murder you for example, which is certainly illegal and against your right to life, but the abstract concepts of law and rights wouldn't stop me.

    Democracy is no more abstract than rights.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    What is stopping me from violating your rights other than abstract law? I could quite easily murder you for example, which is certainly illegal and against your right to life, but the abstract concepts of law and rights wouldn't stop me.

    Democracy is no more abstract than rights.
    What on earth are you on about?
    You have certain rights like sick pay guaranteed by law. You cannot violate that or else you will be liable in a court of law. It is a tangible, real right which we have.

    Democracy is a relative, abstract often subjective concept.
    Some things are better if they are not democratically elected, like our Supreme Court judges.

    Democracy is a means not an ends.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    What on earth are you on about?
    You have certain rights like sick pay guaranteed by law. You cannot violate that or else you will be liable in a court of law. It is a tangible, real right which we have.

    Democracy is a relative, abstract often subjective concept.
    Some things are better if they are not democratically elected, like our Supreme Court judges.

    Democracy is a means not an ends.
    A court of law is just an abstract concept.

    All power is derived from force. Rights/law are only a thing because I can't single-handedly take on the police force.

    Dictatorship is a thing because the people cannot take on the army of the Dictator.

    Democracy is a thing because the Government cannot withstand the force of the people.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    A court of law is just an abstract concept.

    .
    No, it isn't. It's a real, tangible thing.

    Now you're just being weird. I don't want a philosophical debate. I want concrete workers rights, enforceable in a court of law. I don't want abstract concepts which cannot objectively be measured and are not enforceable for the individual.

    Stop with the philosphical bull: It doesn't make you clever.
    You're a left winger voting for Brexit, a real turkey voting for Christmas. You're someone who wants to tear away workers rights for abstract and fake feelings of sovereignty. You're the type who'd rather be ideologically pure and never get anything you want, rather than be pragmatic and get half of what you want.

    Typical lefty.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Democracy is a means not an ends.
    If we leave the eu we will become bigger Thatcherites, not lesser ones. You dislike Thatcherites yet you're about to put a bunch of huge thatcherites into government.

    You are far too idealistic for your own good. Turkey voting for Christmas you are. I can understand the far right populist nutjobs like JD voting brexit, but to see those on the left willing to cut their nose off to spite their face and catapulting Boris into no10 is sickening.

    People like you mean we will have Boris Johnson and the hard right of the tories leading this country. People like you are willing to sacrifice workers rights for abstract concepts. Grow up and learn to be pragmatic.

    You're dangerously naive. Disturbingly so.
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    **** off you condescending little prick. You know nothing, but bean counting and fear and so-called pragmatism which isn't anyhow, for reasons I no longer wish to explain because you would not listen and it'd go on forever.. You think you're so enlightened, just watch what happens over the coming decades, whether we vote in or out, you will see what you want to be attached to in it's fullest glory.

    Anyhow, this is a futile discussion because we have all decided. You .literally refuse to listen and spout the same point over and over waging and ignore counter arguments.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    **** off you condescending little prick. You know nothing, but bean counting and fear and so-called pragmatism which isn't anyhow, for reasons I no longer wihs to explain because you would not listen and it'd go on forever.. You think you're so enlightened, just watch what happens over the coming decades, whether we vote in or out, you will see what you want to be attached to in it's fullest glory.

    Anyhow, this is a futile discussion because we have all decided.
    When we have Boris Johnson as PM shredding workers rights and hammering trade unions as well as imposing further cuts on the poorest, i'm sure you'll be sat there happy we have 'freedom'.

    You're left wing and voting for Brexit because of these abstract, nothing concepts. People like you mean we will have a hard right tory government. People like you are incapable of being pragmatic.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    When we have Boris Johnson as PM shredding workers rights and hammering trade unions as well as imposing further cuts on the poorest, i'm sure you'll be sat there happy we have 'freedom'.

    You're left wing and voting for Brexit because of these abstract, nothing concepts. People like you mean we will have a hard right tory government. People like you are incapable of being pragmatic.
    Why do workers unions support Brexit then?

    Do you think we'll never be able to petition and bend our duly elected Parliament if we leave?

    What would you do if the European Parliament and Commission consisted of UKIP, AfD, FN, Golden Dawn etc as it increasingly is?

    Spiting thousands of years of democracy because you don't like one election result is childish.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    When we have Boris Johnson as PM shredding workers rights and hammering trade unions as well as imposing further cuts on the poorest, i'm sure you'll be sat there happy we have 'freedom'.

    You're left wing and voting for Brexit because of these abstract, nothing concepts. People like you mean we will have a hard right tory government. People like you are incapable of being pragmatic.
    You are a broken record. If you think sovereignty is an abstract worthless concept you are either very stupid or very self-deceiving. You'd have to ignore all of our history. I feel sorry for you that your mental horizons are that low and demoralized. You keep insisting on this phrase pragmatism, as though it's encapsulation is to vote for holding off a few right wing measure that will happen within the next decade, (thinking purely on a minute timescale), which you have so far mostly not been able to do within the EU, besides small concessions on certain issues, you get the worst of both worlds, and yet you view the continuing erosion of your ability to effect the outcome of your country long term, in which the political winds could just as easily blow right as left all over Europe, which with a look at history and an honest bit of self reflection, is blatantly obvious, as pragmatism.

    IN is the defeatist side, they have utterly given up on our own democracy, and they feel to see how self-fulfilling prophecies and domino effects are so important. They want us to fail so they can tell everybody they were right, a lot on the left want to make the worlds problems are own too. I don't, I want to look after national interest of the workers and people in this country and that is pragmatism. You keep talking workers rights, I would vote Corbyn and Brexit, and stop wage compressed migrant Labour, both of which would do a lot more for them than Blairite Europhiles.

    Mate, I will not be gutted about the state of the world if we vote in, but I will do away with patriotism, last refuge of the scoundrel remember, I will do away with viewing this as a special place, and merely a patch of land that believes in independence vehemently for all it's former colonies, but hates the idea of it's own. I will seek my fortune elsewhere.

    But, I am still optimistic that won't happen.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Why do workers unions support Brexit then?

    Do you think we'll never be able to petition and bend our duly elected Parliament if we leave?

    What would you do if the European Parliament and Commission consisted of UKIP, AfD, FN, Golden Dawn etc as it increasingly is?

    Spiting thousands of years of democracy because you don't like one election result is childish.
    Unions do not support Brexit.
    The EU has done far more for workers than the tories.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Unions do not support Brexit.
    The EU has done far more for workers than the tories.
    Northern Irish Public Services Alliance
    Irish Congress of Trade Unions' Northern Ireland Committee
    Rail Union RMT
    Bakers, Food and Allied Workers Union

    etc etc

    The tories are not our only government, we have Labour MPs in the commons and in four years the parliament will change. Grow up and stop being so impatient. A convenient tyranny < An inconvenient Democracy.
 
 
 
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