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    (Original post by Mowerharvey)
    That is the basis of democracy, yes
    Alright. The EU commission is a body that is both unelected and is capable of proposing legislation. As they are unelected, they don't have a democratic mandate and thus no right to authority, agreed?
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    It isn't 350 million a week. Another Brexit lie.
    That's the gross figure, isn't it?
    The net is something like £24m a day.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Except HSBC, or the 7/10 US businesses that employ UK workers that said that Brexit would have a strong or negative impact on investment in the UK.

    http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/97a1c...#axzz4Aq0dJoYX

    That is just a 10 second google search.



    It isn't 350 million a week. Another Brexit lie.



    It isn't a "short term" dip. The pound is the 2nd worst performing major currency out of 16 major ones in the past year.

    Obviously, the markets think it is a stupid idea, but facts don't matter to you.
    Pretty rich coming from the scare mongering 'remainers' that make out the UK will be some grotty backwater country if it left. If you think that the UK domestic economy isn't lucrative enough to remain within then it makes no sense. It is on the assumption that the EU can maintain far better rates or that Britain couldn't negotiate some form of entry into the EU market in other terms. If by 'Facts' you mean the stats Osborne comes up with which are universally laughed at by both sides.

    The UK has been the strongest performing developed economy post recession that is a fact. The pound has slumped significantly in recent times because of both the Scottish referendum and now the EU referendum.. The Euro per capita has done worse and to indirectly imply that the EU is somehow far sounder and stronger long term is disingenuous.

    Its 350m a week, if you take into account subsidies is 250m a week, Why are we paying to access a market in which we are the biggest net buyer?

    The elites are the ones who benefit at the working class's expense by greatly stagnating lower wage jobs and inflating the job market so entry level jobs are grossly undervalued to their profit.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Alright. The EU commission is a body that is both unelected and is capable of proposing legislation. As they are unelected, they don't have a democratic mandate and thus no right to authority, agreed?
    The thing is thats what Britain agreed to when they joined the EU, so they do have a right to propose legislation
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    (Original post by Mowerharvey)
    The thing is thats what Britain agreed to when they joined the EU, so they do have a right to propose legislation
    We did agree to it, and that was a mistake. This referendum is the opportunity for us to take back that mistake, having now realised the undemocratic nature of it.

    Personally, the democratic aspect of voting to leave is by far the most important to me. What are your concerns?
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    (Original post by AverageExcellence)
    Pretty rich coming from the scare mongering 'remainers' that make out the UK will be some grotty backwater country if it left. If you think that the UK domestic economy isn't lucrative enough to remain within then it makes no sense. It is on the assumption that the EU can maintain far better rates or that Britain couldn't negotiate some form of entry into the EU market in other terms. If by 'Facts' you mean the stats Osborne comes up with which are universally laughed at by both sides. .
    Talk to the US companies that employ 300,000 + people that said that it would have a "negative" or "strongly negative" impact on investment.

    It isn't my issue that it directly contradicts your assertion.


    (Original post by AverageExcellence)
    The UK has been the strongest performing developed economy post recession that is a fact. The pound has slumped significantly in recent times because of both the Scottish referendum and now the EU referendum.. The Euro per capita has done worse and to indirectly imply that the EU is somehow far sounder and stronger long term is disingenuous. .
    Right. So the EU referendum has caused the slump in the pound because hte markets think it is a stupid idea.

    (Original post by AverageExcellence)
    Its 350m a week, if you take into account subsidies is 250m a week, Why are we paying to access a market in which we are the biggest net buyer?
    Probably even less than that.

    Paying to access it because the UK is also one of the biggest exporters in the market as well.
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    Very sad. It's amazing how happy people are to just vote away their democracy. I am very left wing and to all the left wing voters I would say, don't you care about democracy? Correct me if I'm wrong but being left wing means that you believe in democracy, a system where the people elect the politicians making the laws. Correct me if I'm wrong but left wing means not believing in dictatorship. Especially an EU dictatorship. Most of all, I thought being left wing meant not wanting the rich to get richer, so how can you be left wing and ok with the unelected bureaucrats making the laws in the EU?!
    Britain is NOT a democratic country as long as we stay in the EU, so this vote is essentially the last chance to get democracy back! The remain propaganda is based on fear and uncertainty and makes the leave campaign look like nationalists or extremists. You know what I think is extreme? The fact we are part of an EU superstate
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    (Original post by JavaScriptMaster)
    Show me the data
    1) the EU is a protectionist bloc that hinders international trade in favour of its own inward-looking trade. that damages growth.
    2) if we continue to stay with a protectionist arrangement, as opposed to a globalist free-trade and outward-looking policy, then we will go down with the EU ship as it continues to stagnate and need ever more bail outs and subsidies for failing industries
    3) therefore, it is logical to suppose that leaving the EU, long term, in that it allows us to free trade through the world without imposing tariffs (or other non-tariff barriers), we shall get more growth, in the same sense that switzerland, from outside the EU, gets more growth than all the other EU countries.

    "data" showed that the UK should have joined the euro.
    "data" showed that giving poland early access to UK immigration wouldn't lead to mass migration.
    "data" didn't predict the 2008 recession
    I'm simply using common sense which is simple to understand - protectionism doesn't work. this is why the EU stagnates. this is why switzerland doesn't stagnate.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    We did agree to it, and that was a mistake. This referendum is the opportunity for us to take back that mistake, having now realised the undemocratic nature of it.

    Personally, the democratic aspect of voting to leave is by far the most important to me. What are your concerns?
    Personally I think that the leave campaign gets too wrapped up on immigration and doesn't really consider any of the benefits of the EU. But at the end of the day, no one really knows what will happen if we remain or if we leave. I just hope we make the right decision, but it's hard to know what that is.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Talk to the US companies that employ 300,000 + people that said that it would have a "negative" or "strongly negative" impact on investment.

    It isn't my issue that it directly contradicts your assertion.




    Right. So the EU referendum has caused the slump in the pound because hte markets think it is a stupid idea.



    Probably even less than that.

    Paying to access it because the UK is also one of the biggest exporters in the market as well.
    It will be negative for them because they can't keep compressing wages and they don't know where they stand between Europe and the UK yet which is still to be determined, uncertainty always means hesitancy in investing that's basic economics.

    What do we get for our membership? a rubber stamp parliament, free trade of which we are the biggest net customer, second largest contributor and unlimited free movement which strains public services and saturates the job market.

    Corporations aren't all seeing oracles who know whats best for the country they look whats best for them, they aren't exporting labour to china in droves because they think china is a great place. They don't give a crap about standards of living or social welbeing.
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    (Original post by Mowerharvey)
    Can someone explain to me exactly what are the benefits of leaving?
    The UK constitutes like 12.74℅ of the EU population, but only has 9.71℅ of the voting power. (These are rough; check a recent post of mine to double check. Not gonna redo calculations on a phone.)

    The EP can't initiate (propose), repeal or amend legislation. We have no representatives in the EC, who are the ones who can only propose legislation.

    We pay a membership fee of £55 million/day. Only half is spent back on things in UK, but we don't even have a say on what it is spent.

    The Common External Tariff hurts MEDCs, and drives up our food prices. (On a schedule; ask of you want an explanation.)

    Carbon emission taxes drive up energy prices. (Doesn't reduce carbon emission; businesses just relocate. Just drives down competition.)

    Higher energy prices and low EU tariff on really cheap Chinese steel is crippling our steel industry; Chinese steel (of which there is a surplus) out-competes the UK steel industry.

    (Haven't confirmed this one, but isn't the EU a shrinking trading bloc?)

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    We're staying. I don't know why the leave campaigners are even bothering tbh
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    1) the EU is a protectionist bloc that hinders international trade in favour of its own inward-looking trade. that damages growth.
    2) if we continue to stay with a protectionist arrangement, as opposed to a globalist free-trade and outward-looking policy, then we will go down with the EU ship as it continues to stagnate and need ever more bail outs and subsidies for failing industries
    3) therefore, it is logical to suppose that leaving the EU, long term, in that it allows us to free trade through the world without imposing tariffs (or other non-tariff barriers), we shall get more growth, in the same sense that switzerland, from outside the EU, gets more growth than all the other EU countries.
    .
    why do I get the feeling that your making all of this up as you go?

    the EU is a protectionist bloc that hinders international trade in favour of its own inward-looking trade.

    So your saying that the EU doesn't like to trade with Africa and South America and Asia? Can you prove that? We all know that the EU has free-trade between members but since when does the EU make it worse for international trade? Please prove that as well. When you have properly backed up point number 1 we can move on to the next one, your not an MP so don't say "facts" without backing them up with hard evidence
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    (Original post by AverageExcellence)
    It will be negative for them because they can't keep compressing wages and they don't know where they stand between Europe and the UK yet which is still to be determined, uncertainty always means hesitancy in investing that's basic economics..
    Just stop waffling.

    They have already said that they are going to decrease investment in a Brexit. You just don't understand basic english.

    (Original post by AverageExcellence)
    What do we get for our membership? a rubber stamp parliament, free trade of which we are the biggest net customer, second largest contributor and unlimited free movement which strains public services and saturates the job market..
    Well, we are not the biggest importer. France is.

    Being the biggest importer is a weakness. Not a strength. That is why the Germans are the most powerful country in Europe.

    (Original post by AverageExcellence)
    Corporations aren't all seeing oracles who know whats best for the country they look whats best for them, they aren't exporting labour to china in droves because they think china is a great place. They don't give a crap about standards of living or social welbeing.
    Why do I care about the jobs they send to China? I only care about companies that want to invest here and they have already said that they will invest less.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    remaining in the EU will actually hurt us economically over the long-term
    and judging by the trends in the polls (as long as they continue along this pattern), I'd say we'll probably leave
    I'm just wondering but when leading economists say that's not true, how can others be persuaded? What's your argument?
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    (Original post by Trapz99)
    We're staying. I don't know why the leave campaigners are even bothering tbh
    It's not that clear-cut. The stats are pretty equal.
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    It's not that clear-cut. The stats are pretty equal.
    Lol I know, I was just hoping to trigger the leave supporters
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Just stop waffling.

    They have already said that they are going to decrease investment in a Brexit. You just don't understand basic english.



    Well, we are not the biggest importer. France is.

    Being the biggest importer is a weakness. Not a strength. That is why the Germans are the most powerful country in Europe.



    Why do I care about the jobs they send to China? I only care about companies that want to invest here and they have already said that they will invest less.
    Don't accuse me of not understanding basic english when you confuse importer and exporter 1.

    You should care because it clearly has a direct impact on the economic situation of the UK and you are implying this referendum is about pleasing large corporations every whim the most.

    And wrong, the UK imports more $ wise net than france does
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    (Original post by Mowerharvey)

    Can someone explain to me exactly what are the benefits of leaving?
    Well, like most things, it is based on half-truths. Things are not perfect but leaving the EU will not improve them.

    (Original post by XcitingStuart)

    The EP can't initiate (propose), repeal or amend legislation. We have no representatives in the EC, who are the ones who can only propose legislation.

    I already said this was incorrect. The EP can amend and reject legislation

    The EC has a British representative that is chosen by the UK Government and the EC creates legislation. Saying the UK has no representatives is just made up.
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    I'm just wondering but when leading economists say that's not true, how can others be persuaded? What's your argument?
    my argument isn't using "economists" because economists never accurately predict anything like this. like I said, if they got the euro argument totally wrong, why would they get this argument correct? how can you take them seriously? also, it is extremely clear that the EU is stagnating - why do economists think we should remain in a stagnating trade bloc? there must be some kind of invalidation to this. just like the euro episode.
 
 
 
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