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    (Original post by Axion)
    It's comical isn't it. For example, Toyota has already openly stated it WILL cut back. Leave just deny that or call them liars.

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/in...tain-remain-eu

    Can't wait for the 2 years of investment influx into the UK whilst there is massive uncertainty )))))
    Leave is a religious faith and impervious to facts.

    We might be better using crucifixes or holy water than practical arguments.
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    (Original post by Axion)
    Of course, I'm well aware of how management are incentivised. It changes nothing. Jobs and investment is at risk - plain and simple. They have stated that and no-one, absolutely no-one, is better placed to dispute that. They have access to strategic plans, investment proposals, financing proposals, and financial statements. We don't, simple.

    I know you have. Neil Woodford is a great fund manager. However, he certainly has been wrong countless times, and numerous high profile times!

    Care to comment on my point about sector shifts and employment losses? I don't think it's in any way right to say "screw you" to some already in work, just because we may, in a good scenario, recoup jobs elsewhere.
    Jobs will take a hit in the short run but hiring will pick up again after the short term dip. I think a lot to do with the economy is confidence. If you tell people that the economy is going nosedive 40% then it probably will. If you tell people that nothing much would change then the potential negative impact would be a lot less. I also think that the city
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    (Original post by generallee)
    The mistake is yours.

    The head of the current Government is David Cameron. If we vote Brexit he will be ousted in days. Osborne will be finished too.

    So if you want to get rid of this government undecided voter, now is your chance. You'll never get another chance to oust that sanctimonious posh boy git, Cameron and his bezzie mate, Georgie boy.

    There is also likely to be a general election in short order.

    Exciting times!
    Great, well done, you get rid of Cameron slightly sooner. He's already said he's not running for another term though. The Tories stay in power. Different name, same policies.

    How about in 10 years time? Might even be a Labour government, but we'll still not be in the EU.

    I'm not a huge fan of the Tories, but the EU referendum is about the EU, not about our government. Voting leave in order to get rid of two unpopular politicians is one of the most short-sighted arguments I've come across yet! (And there are so many to choose from)
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    These polls are used to rig elections, they have them saying one side are winning to bring out the other side and make them aware of the importance for their vote. Once a trustworthy source of possible outcomes but since 2001 have been used as a device to manipulate votes. Exit polls are the only polls that will show the possible outcome. "There are three types of lies -- lies, damn lies, and statistics."

    Another thing is Media, papers like The Sun taking favor of brexit.. this will catch the eyes of those who want to remain and some people just decide from what the media tells them, a bold statement supporting brexit will certainly make up their mind but when they do their famous last minute change of plan (as seen in 1992 & 2010) those undecided voters that were gonna vote brexit will swing. Its all manipulation.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Leave is a religious faith and impervious to facts.

    We might be better using crucifixes or holy water than practical arguments.
    Well if you keep up the condescension and insults I'm sure you'll win them over soon enough. Try that one about them all being stupid backwards Norfolk yokels again, such a practical argument that one was.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    Well if you keep up the condescension and insults I'm sure you'll win them over soon enough. Try that one about them all being stupid backwards Norfolk yokels again, such a practical argument that one was.
    I recall you saying that's what I said. I don't recall actually saying it, or anything close to it.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Boeing isn't a good example - they have about 1,500 employees in the UK. Nissan alone have more than 10,000.

    Most of the FTSE directors in favour of Brexit work for predatory City companies like hedge funds, finance companies and gambling organisations. Hardly a great advert for the sort of research/manufacturing Britain we all want.

    Your arguments are, as I said, more faith than reality.
    I think you have your figures wrong. Boeing does indeed have 1,500 but Nissan UK actually has 4,500. Regardless, Boeing just makes it's aeroplane wings here and other parts all over Europe. If they are not too concerned then i fail to see how the impact would be so negative for other manufacturing companies. How do you know "Most of the FTSE directors in favour of Brexit work for predatory City companies like hedge funds, finance companies and gambling organisations."? The survey i have seen doesn't say what companies want what.

    Is 'manufacturing Britain' one that 'we' want? As economies develop they become more serviced based and less about manufacturing.
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    (Original post by zayn008)
    These polls are used to rig elections, they have them saying one side are winning to bring out the other side and make them aware of the importance for their vote. Once a trustworthy source of possible outcomes but since 2001 have been used as a device to manipulate votes. Exit polls are the only polls that will show the possible outcome. "There are three types of lies -- lies, damn lies, and statistics."

    Another thing is Media, papers like The Sun taking favor of brexit.. this will catch the eyes of those who want to remain and some people just decide from what the media tells them, a bold statement supporting brexit will certainly make up their mind but when they do their famous last minute change of plan (as seen in 1992 & 2010) those undecided voters that were gonna vote brexit will swing. Its all manipulation.
    The Sun thing is a direct order from Rupert Murdoch.

    It's truly bizarre that an offshored billionaire Australian living in New York and one of the world's largest tax refusers/dodgers is determining the future of Britain in Europe.

    If we were a tougher country we would have media ownership laws (as do many other democracies) that prevent the concentration of media power that he has. Unfortunately, our laws were ignored by Margaret Thatcher when she gave Murdoch this power.

    His main motive appears to be that he hates any authority that he does not directly control.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The Sun thing is a direct order from Rupert Murdoch.

    It's truly bizarre that an offshored billionaire Australian living in New York and one of the world's largest tax refusers/dodgers is determining the future of Britain in Europe.

    If we were a tougher country we would have media ownership laws (as do many other democracies) that prevent the concentration of media power that he has. Unfortunately, our laws were ignored by Margaret Thatcher when she gave Murdoch this power.

    His main motive appears to be that he hates any authority that he does not directly control.
    Oh please stop with the villainizing, Goldman Sachs along with many other banks have given money to the remain campaign and they have paid hundreds of billions in costs because of law breaking..
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    (Original post by generallee)
    The mistake is yours.

    The head of the current Government is David Cameron. If we vote Brexit he will be ousted in days. Osborne will be finished too.

    So if you want to get rid of this government undecided voter, now is your chance. You'll never get another chance to oust that sanctimonious posh boy git, Cameron and his bezzie mate, Georgie boy.

    There is also likely to be a general election in short order.

    Exciting times!
    I note that you don't address the point, which is that we will still have a Tory government after a Leave vote, albeit with a different leader. (possibly)

    The idea that they won't be some posh git is a bit of a joke when you consider that the front runner is Boris, who is exactly the same as David Cameron by background, education and class.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Leave is a religious faith and impervious to facts.

    We might be better using crucifixes or holy water than practical arguments.
    What facts are you talking about, exactly?

    The Treasury knowing what is going to happen by 2030 when it can't accurately forecast a month ahead, perchance?

    The start of world war three? I bet all those Hapsburg Archdukes are getting nervous in Sarajevo!

    House prices going down 18%? Gotta love the spurious precision of the outright, barefaced, lie!

    Pensions getting slashed? Even though there's a triple lock and it is a purely domestic political decision?

    The death of western civilisation, as per Donald Tusk?

    Have you ever read the story of the little boy who cried wolf?

    If Remain lose this campaign you have only yourselves to blame.

    For not listening to all your "facts." For daring to vote how THEY want to, not how the elite, the establishment, the rich and powerful , and their internet sock puppets tell them they have to.
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    (Original post by Inexorably)
    Silly, fairly obvious question, from myself - will there be an exit poll after the vote takes place like with the General Election? 'Cause if so, I think that's the only poll I'm going to be even seriously considering.
    Way too complicated to pull off, in generals you look at key marginals and use them to forecast how the marginals and maybe some safe seats will vote, combine with the safes and you get your exit poll, with referendums you cannot really get the samples you need
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The Sun thing is a direct order from Rupert Murdoch.

    It's truly bizarre that an offshored billionaire Australian living in New York and one of the world's largest tax refusers/dodgers is determining the future of Britain in Europe.

    If we were a tougher country we would have media ownership laws (as do many other democracies) that prevent the concentration of media power that he has. Unfortunately, our laws were ignored by Margaret Thatcher when she gave Murdoch this power.

    His main motive appears to be that he hates any authority that he does not directly control.
    Murdoch has a worldwide Media Monopoly, any attempt to dilute his influence will be put under dark light. But yes, he's decided many of our general elections notably 1992 and the conservative swing in 2010. It's not completely his sole decision though, there is loads behind it including governments and other millionaires which is why i would put money on the possibility of him switching to support remain towards the referendum.

    Its a tactic to heat the debate and bring out the undecided. If they took the Remain side at first it wouldn't catch the eyes of those undecided simply because its the status quo but once you get those undecided voters to take a side (by supporting brexit, a sharp bold move) its then easier to make them swing and support the status quo, the remain side.

    I highly doubt Murdoch would support brexit as the final outcome, it wouldn't have a positive effect on his business and rich buddies
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    (Original post by Sun_Bear)
    I think you have your figures wrong. Boeing does indeed have 1,500 but Nissan UK actually has 4,500. Regardless, Boeing just makes it's aeroplane wings here and other parts all over Europe. If they are not too concerned then i fail to see how the impact would be so negative for other manufacturing companies. How do you know "Most of the FTSE directors in favour of Brexit work for predatory City companies like hedge funds, finance companies and gambling organisations."? The survey i have seen doesn't say what companies want what.

    Is 'manufacturing Britain' one that 'we' want? As economies develop they become more serviced based and less about manufacturing.
    I apologise on the Nissan thing, I meant to say Nissan and Toyota. According to Wikipedia though, Nissan has 6,800 employees in the UK alone.

    No chairman of any FTSE 100 company has come out in favour of Leave.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35901811

    Some other big company chairman and directors and ex-directors have come out - these are mainly from 'fringe' companies like gambling companies, pub chains and mobile phone ripoff retailers - all Tory supporters as well.

    The clever, clever trick that the Leavers are perpetrating is taking an in-house Tory feud / cause and making it sound like something that ordinary people should care about.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I note that you don't address the point, which is that we will still have a Tory government after a Leave vote, albeit with a different leader. (possibly)

    The idea that they won't be some posh git is a bit of a joke when you consider that the front runner is Boris, who is exactly the same as David Cameron by background, education and class.
    There will have to be a general election.

    The British people can then decide.

    You don't trust them, that is the problem!
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    (Original post by zayn008)
    Murdoch has a worldwide Media Monopoly, any attempt to dilute his influence will be put under dark light. But yes, he's decided many of our general elections notably 1992 and the conservative swing in 2010. It's not completely his sole decision though, there is loads behind it including governments and other millionaires which is why i would put money on the possibility of him switching to support remain towards the referendum.

    Its a tactic to heat the debate and bring out the undecided. If they took the Remain side at first it wouldn't catch the eyes of those undecided simply because its the status quo but once you get those undecided voters to take a side (by supporting brexit, a sharp bold move) its then easier to make them swing and support the status quo, the remain side.

    I highly doubt Murdoch would support brexit as the final outcome, it wouldn't have a positive effect on his business and rich buddies
    No, the Sun has decided and Murdoch has been anti-EU for a long time, ever since there were threats in Brussels about investigating his tax status.
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    (Original post by generallee)
    There will have to be a general election.

    The British people can then decide.

    You don't trust them, that is the problem!
    It's a complete fantasy that there will be a general election. Do you honestly think that all those Tory MPs are going to get up and suddenly risk their seats? Don't make me laugh. It isn't even clear that Dave would go, that's just a supposition.
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    If we Leave at least there'll be some small satisfaction in seeing the Brexiteers slowly realise that they've ruined the country's economy.

    Not that they'd ever admit it.
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    (Original post by generallee)
    There will have to be a general election.

    The British people can then decide.

    You don't trust them, that is the problem!
    The British people are not educated enough to make such a complex decision. Call me derisive and a snob, but it's simply the truth.
 
 
 
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