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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
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    I'm currently working on an answer to your question with regards to the naming. It will involve:

    1. Addressing the claim that Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s named his son Abu Bakr. [I have already written on this to zamestaneh, but i will write another post]
    2. The he named his son Umar, and Uthman, after the second and third caliphs respectively.
    3. In addition, i will address some of the finer points you have raised, such as - 'naming someone out of veneration, vs a name that means goodness (by its menaing.

    Furthermore, i am also working on making a compilation of all the authentic ahadith, and all the companions of the Ahlulbayt of Muhammed asws,, who narrated ahadith from them, and are named: Yazid, Muawiyah, have the Qunya Abu Bakr , as well as Umar and Uthman[this is taking up time, as i am attemping to go through as much of Al Kafi as possible].

    I have a number of other things i am doing, and as i want to address the above issues thoroughly, and reflect and deeply think about what you have brought (as opposed to writing a refutation for the sake of refuting), i'll need a little bit of time.



    I myself, have three questions i would like to ask you, inshAllah, and you are free to take your time in answering these:

    1. We both acknowledge, as per authentic ahadith, that Fatima a.s, the daughter of Muhammed s.a.w, died angry with the Caliph, Abu Bakr. Not only that, she stopped speaking to him altogether, until she died. As well as that, she never pledged her allegiance to him[what is the nature of one who does not pledge allegiance and recognize the leader of their time?], and Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s did not inform him of her death, and buried him secretly at night, and recited the funeral prayer himself. We do not even know for certian (there are disputes) exactly where her Tomb is today. - What do you think about this?

    2. I came across the following hadith by accident, whilst looking for something else. I was a little surprised to find it, and thought perhaps it would be better to know how a sunni brother reconciles their belief in the four rightly guided caliph, and ahadith like the following:

    Saheeh Al Bukhari: I saw `Uthman and `Ali. `Uthman used to forbid people to perform Hajj-at-Tamattu` and Hajj-al- Qiran (Hajj and `Umra together), and when `Ali saw (this act of `Uthman), he assumed Ihram for Hajj and `Umra together saying, "Lubbaik for `Umra and Hajj," and said, "I will not leave the tradition of the Prophet (ﷺ) on the saying of somebody."

    Yes, i understand Uthman may not be M'asum, but this goes beyond merely being M'asum. Note Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s's pretty harsh words about what he felt about Uthmans viewpoint.
    Sunan an Nisai[Saheeh]: "I heard 'Ali binHusain narrating from Marwan, that 'Uthman forbade Mut'ah and joining Hajj and "Umrah. 'Ali said; 'Labbaika bi Hajjatin wa 'Umratin ma'an Here I am, (O Allah) for Hajj and "Umrah together. 'Uthman said: 'Are you doing this when I have forbidden it?' 'Ali said; 'I will not give up the Summah of the Messenger of Allah for any of the people.''
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
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    (Original post by Boondock Saint)
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    (Original post by mercuryman)
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    (Original post by King7)
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    Walaykum Salam,

    As for my third question:

    Affirmation that Allah has two feet
    https://islamqa.info/en/166843

    Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allah be pleased with him) said: “The Kursiy (foot stool) is the place of the two feet, and the size of Throne cannot be known.”

    And in Bukhari it states: " Hell will keep saying, ‘Are there any more (to come)?’ until the Lord of Glory, may He be blessed and exalted, places His foot on it, then it will say, ‘Enough, enough, by Your glory!’ And all its parts will be integrated together. "

    According to islamqa: Abu Moosa al-Ash‘ari (may Allah be pleased with him) said: "The Kursiy is the place for the two feet, and it creaks as a saddle creaks. "


    Furthermore, according to islamqa: " It was narrated that Ibn Mas’ood said: Between the first heaven and the one above it is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between each of the heavens is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between the seventh heaven and the Kursiy is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between the Kursiy and the water is (a distance of) five hundred years, and the Throne is above the water. Allaah is above the Throne, and nothing whatsoever of your deeds is hidden from Him. (narrated by Ibn Khuzaymah in al-Tawheed, p. 105; by al-Bayhaqi in al-Asmaa’ wa’l-Sifaat, p. 401).
    Source: https://islamqa.info/en/9566


    A few questions i have:

    1. Do you believe Allah azwj has two feet, but not like ours?
    2. Do you believe his two feet are below the waters, below the throne, and that the rest of Allah azwj is above his throne, but his two feet are below his waters, which are below his throne ?
    3. If you believe in 1 , is that not inconsistent with the notion that Allah azwj can not be divided, that is is ahad, indivisible, and one in his absolute oneness?
    4. If you believe in 2 - surely, Allah azwj does not have a location, he existed before coordinates, before place, before position, and he himself created the term 'where', and hence it can not apply to him. Therefore, if one believes Allah azwj's two feet are below the throne , and below the waters, and over the qursi, surely, that places Allah azwj in seperate locations himself, limits him to coordinates, and brings forth an inconsistency that how can he be above the throne, yet, his two feet be below the waters, and below the throne ?
    5. Allah azwj does not incurr change by his essence. He merely says be and it is. He does not need tools, like we need our hands, feet, eyes, he is free of requiring these. Thus, why does Allah azwj need a foot, and secondlyby putting his foot over hell , does it note place his essence over hell itself, and and by merely putting something over another, does it not mean he incurrs change, in movement, limiting himself to a location?

    And as a seperate question, if the distance between the qursi and the waters is 500 years , and if the two feet of Allah azwj (allegedly) are above the Qursi, it means that the two feet of Allah azwj are a finite distance away from his throne, and Allah azwj thus, has coordinates, atleast for his two feet , and thus a confine and location. Therefore, how can one say we believe Allah azwj is above all of creation with no location', and then say 'Allah azwj has two feet, above the qursi, somewhere within 500 years travelling distance below the waters, and the remainder of him is above the waters, and above the throne which is above the waters?
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    (Original post by Boondock Saint)
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    Salamunalaykum,

    Thank you for the answer.

    I'll have to confirm our position on that hadith. I believe i know our position, but i wish never to speak outside of knowledge.

    Consider the following:

    1. Shia's believe, it will be up to Allah azwj to judge our hearts, and our intentions at the end of the day. He will not wrong anyone in the least, and if you are a sunni, he will judge how open you were to the truth, how open you were to accepting the truth, and he is the best of judges, and hence i can not make a judgement on the issue. It will be for him to judge, so to say, sunni's are all doomed is not what we shia's believe.

    2. Secondly, if you consider the fact that to a number , shia's are regarded as deviants, boderline mushriks, prayer behind them not permitted, marriage to them not allowed, and i will again have to say, i have been referred to as a 'rafidhi' a number of times on these boards, and on ummah forums, two or three have made direct takfir on me (i have never seen a sunni brother called a kaffir on shiachat, and that would get one a ban).

    A shia can marry a sunni. A shia is allowed to pray behind a sunni imam. Sunni's are considered our brothers in Islam, and unity, love, peace and tolerance is promoted between the two madhabs.

    A sunni would argue that their madhab is true, that the concept of imamah is deviance, contrary to the sunnah, that the Prophet s.a.w never left the Quran and ahlulbayt a.s as the supreme sources of adherence. Some, including a number of users here, go so far as to say any shia who holds shia beliefs (so not a layman) is a kaffir, hence, my ulema are all made mass takfir of. While i on the other hand, say, anyone who is a sunni and holds sunni beliefs is still a muslim. Allah azwj will judge each person individually with regards to their adherence to the ahlulbayt of Muhammed asws.

    All in all, an approach which seeks to show shia's victimizing sunni's theologically in my eyes, is not a correct one, seeing as the inverse is absolutely more severe.
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    Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s, the rightful successor of the Holy Prophet s.a.w





    "...Then the Messenger of Allah continued: "Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?”People cried and answered: "Yes, O’ Messenger of God.”Then Prophet (S) held up the hand of ‘Ali and said: "Whoever I am his master (Mawla), ‘Ali is his master (Mawla). O’ God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him..."

    (1) Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63 (2) Sunan Ibn Maja, v1, pp 12,4 (3) Khasa’is, by al-Nisa’i, pp 4,21 (4) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p129, v3, pp 109-110,116,371 (5) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,118,119,152,330, v4, pp 281,368,370, 372,378, v5, pp 35,347,358,361,366,419 (from 40 chains of narrators) (6) Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, pp 563,572 (7) Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v9, p103 (from several transmitters) (8) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50

    Points of contention:

    Before i address common points of contention, if anyone is unfamiliar with Ghadeer, i recommend they watch this video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSd2nGnKUa8


    Contention: "Ghadeer had absolutely nothing to do with Muhammed s.a.w appointing Ali ibn abi talib a.s, but a way for Muhammed s.a.w to resolve a dispute Ali ibn abi talib a.s had with some soldiers, Khalid bin waleed, among others due to war booty, and khums, and his actions with a slave girl (yemen event).

    Reply to contention:
    Spoiler:
    Show
    Spoiler: Show It is argued by some, that due to the actions of Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s admonishing the army which had around 300, with regards to the Khums and wearing the armour, as well his his actions with a slave girl, many had complained to Muhammed s.a.w before hajj. Thus, Muhammed s.a.w waited until after hajj in order to find the correct time to resolve this dispute. It so happened he decided to stop by at Ghadeer khumm, between Mecca and Medina, to announce and proclaim his closeness to Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s, so those who had enmity in their hearts against him, were made to therefore understand the need to be his friend, love him, and not dislike and hate him.

    There are a number of problems with the above narrative:

    1. Not only did the Prophet s.a.w address companions individually and admonish them, he also rose up and addressed them in general, giving clear words on the matter and issue. Therefore the notion that he had to wait after the hajj in order to deal with the issue is patently false.

    Evidence for above:

    The army showed resentment at their treatment…when the men complained of Ali,the Apostle arose to address them and he (the narrator) heard him (the Prophet) say: “Do not blame Ali, for he is too scrupulous in the things of Allah, or in the way of Allah, to be blamed.”(Ibn Ishaq, Seerah Rasool-Allah, p.650)

    Clearly, we can see that a number of men complained about Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s. The prophet s.a.w as is stated, "arose" to address "them". Therefore, we find that Muhammed s.a.w had already arisen to a group of people, and gave clear instruction not to blame Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s. According to our sunni brothers, the problem was due to the actions of Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s with regards to how he handled the war booty, and his actions with a slave girl (in relation to the booty), and therefore, it makes perfect sense for the Prophet s.a.w to directly tell the people not to blame Ali a,s, and that he is on truth, is just and fair in the way of Allah azwj, is far too conscious of matters in the way of Allah azwj to be blamed.

    The idea that a few sahaba complained, and this this response was only for the few, may not be accurate. For one, we find that there are two instances whereby Muhammed s.a.w is recorded to respond to this issue:

    1. When individual companions/a handful complain :

    The Prophet (ﷺ) sent `Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (of the booty) and I hated `Ali, and `Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave-girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, "Don't you see this (i.e. `Ali)?" When we reached the Prophet (ﷺ) I mentioned that to him. He said, "O Buraida! Do you hate `Ali?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumlus." [Saheeh Bukhari]

    As you can clearly see, companions went to a group and complained of Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s. The Prophet s.a.w would not have allowed his companions to merely have growing resent against Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s. He , by his wisdom, would have (and did) address the issue, to allow it to be sorted immediately, and for the muslims to subsequently focus on the hajj. In the above hadith is an instance where Muhammed s.a.w clearly admonishes those who came and complained to him individually/perhaps in groups.

    There then came a time when Muhammed s.a.w, after having received complaints from individuals/groups, and after having responded to them, arose to make a general statement: “..When the people complained about ‘Ali the Messenger of Allah stood up to address them…” [Al-Bidayah wa an-nihayah vol 5, page 95 ; Seerah Al-Nabawiyyah, ibn Hisham, vol 4, page 259] And he said: “Do not blame Ali, for he is too scrupulous in the things of Allah, or in the way of Allah, to be blamed.” (Ibn Ishaq, Seerah Rasool-Allah, p.650)

    There and then, the matter should have been finished. Not only did Prophet Muhammed s.a.w admonish the companions individually, he felt the need to stand up and give a short speech, whereby he addressed them and clearly told them in unequivocal words about the virtues of Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s, and not to blame him.

    Thus, the matter should have been finished. And we find that, to Muhammed s.a.w, he also deemed his words sufficient, and "..Then the apostle continued his pilgrimage, and showed the men the rites..” If this was not sufficient, then surely, during his farewell sermon, they should have paid heed to the call of needing to foster brotherhood and love among themselves: The Prophet s.a.w , in his farewell sermon is reported to have said:]Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.”

    It is alsoimportant to rememberthat the time when the prophet s.a.w rose to address the people[to clearly tell them not to blame Ali ibn abi talib a.s], and the 18th of the holy month of Dhu Al-Hijjah, was about 10 days, and perhaps short of two weeks.

    Additionally, it is also important to remember that this was not an issue where thousands were against Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s. Rather, it was some from among a small force of 300 sent to Yemen. Not everyone in that force would have resented Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s (according to our sunni brothers), afterall, the virtues of Ali a.s, his superiority, were famous and well known. And so, it may have only been part of the small force of 300.

    And furthermore, after being clearly admonished individually, and as a group, and subsequently spoken to about the need for brotherhood in the farewell sermon, the number that should have still resented Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s due to his incident ought to have been even less than a handful - if they had any regard for the words of Muhammed s.a.w

    No doubt there was mass jealousy and hatred towards Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s., but a sunni brother won't accept that.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s, the rightful successor of the Holy Prophet s.a.w





    "...Then the Messenger of Allah continued: "Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?”People cried and answered: "Yes, O’ Messenger of God.”Then Prophet (S) held up the hand of ‘Ali and said: "Whoever I am his master (Mawla), ‘Ali is his master (Mawla). O’ God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him..."

    (1) Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63 (2) Sunan Ibn Maja, v1, pp 12,4 (3) Khasa’is, by al-Nisa’i, pp 4,21 (4) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p129, v3, pp 109-110,116,371 (5) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,118,119,152,330, v4, pp 281,368,370, 372,378, v5, pp 35,347,358,361,366,419 (from 40 chains of narrators) (6) Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, pp 563,572 (7) Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v9, p103 (from several transmitters) (8) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50

    Points of contention:

    Before i address common points of contention, if anyone is unfamiliar with Ghadeer, i recommend they watch this video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSd2nGnKUa8


    Contention: "Ghadeer had absolutely nothing to do with Muhammed s.a.w appointing Ali ibn abi talib a.s, but a way for Muhammed s.a.w to resolve a dispute Ali ibn abi talib a.s had with some soldiers, Khalid bin waleed, among others due to war booty, and khums, and his actions with a slave girl (yemen event).

    Reply to contention:
    Spoiler:
    Show
    Spoiler: Show It is argued by some, that due to the actions of Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s admonishing the army which had around 300, with regards to the Khums and wearing the armour, as well his his actions with a slave girl, many had complained to Muhammed s.a.w before hajj. Thus, Muhammed s.a.w waited until after hajj in order to find the correct time to resolve this dispute. It so happened he decided to stop by at Ghadeer khumm, between Mecca and Medina, to announce and proclaim his closeness to Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s, so those who had enmity in their hearts against him, were made to therefore understand the need to be his friend, love him, and not dislike and hate him.

    There are a number of problems with the above narrative:

    1. Not only did the Prophet s.a.w address companions individually and admonish them, he also rose up and addressed them in general, giving clear words on the matter and issue. Therefore the notion that he had to wait after the hajj in order to deal with the issue is patently false.

    Evidence for above:

    The army showed resentment at their treatment…when the men complained of Ali,the Apostle arose to address them and he (the narrator) heard him (the Prophet) say: “Do not blame Ali, for he is too scrupulous in the things of Allah, or in the way of Allah, to be blamed.”(Ibn Ishaq, Seerah Rasool-Allah, p.650)

    Clearly, we can see that a number of men complained about Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s. The prophet s.a.w as is stated, "arose" to address "them". Therefore, we find that Muhammed s.a.w had already arisen to a group of people, and gave clear instruction not to blame Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s. According to our sunni brothers, the problem was due to the actions of Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s with regards to how he handled the war booty, and his actions with a slave girl (in relation to the booty), and therefore, it makes perfect sense for the Prophet s.a.w to directly tell the people not to blame Ali a,s, and that he is on truth, is just and fair in the way of Allah azwj, is far too conscious of matters in the way of Allah azwj to be blamed.

    The idea that a few sahaba complained, and this this response was only for the few, may not be accurate. For one, we find that there are two instances whereby Muhammed s.a.w is recorded to respond to this issue:

    1. When individual companions/a handful complain :

    The Prophet (ﷺ) sent `Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (of the booty) and I hated `Ali, and `Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave-girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, "Don't you see this (i.e. `Ali)?" When we reached the Prophet (ﷺ) I mentioned that to him. He said, "O Buraida! Do you hate `Ali?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumlus." [Saheeh Bukhari]

    As you can clearly see, companions went to a group and complained of Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s. The Prophet s.a.w would not have allowed his companions to merely have growing resent against Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s. He , by his wisdom, would have (and did) address the issue, to allow it to be sorted immediately, and for the muslims to subsequently focus on the hajj. In the above hadith is an instance where Muhammed s.a.w clearly admonishes those who came and complained to him individually/perhaps in groups.

    There then came a time when Muhammed s.a.w, after having received complaints from individuals/groups, and after having responded to them, arose to make a general statement: “..When the people complained about ‘Ali the Messenger of Allah stood up to address them…” [Al-Bidayah wa an-nihayah vol 5, page 95 ; Seerah Al-Nabawiyyah, ibn Hisham, vol 4, page 259] And he said: “Do not blame Ali, for he is too scrupulous in the things of Allah, or in the way of Allah, to be blamed.” (Ibn Ishaq, Seerah Rasool-Allah, p.650)

    There and then, the matter should have been finished. Not only did Prophet Muhammed s.a.w admonish the companions individually, he felt the need to stand up and give a short speech, whereby he addressed them and clearly told them in unequivocal words about the virtues of Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s, and not to blame him.

    Thus, the matter should have been finished. And we find that, to Muhammed s.a.w, he also deemed his words sufficient, and "..Then the apostle continued his pilgrimage, and showed the men the rites..” If this was not sufficient, then surely, during his farewell sermon, they should have paid heed to the call of needing to foster brotherhood and love among themselves: The Prophet s.a.w , in his farewell sermon is reported to have said:]Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.”

    It is alsoimportant to rememberthat the time when the prophet s.a.w rose to address the people[to clearly tell them not to blame Ali ibn abi talib a.s], and the 18th of the holy month of Dhu Al-Hijjah, was about 10 days, and perhaps short of two weeks.

    Additionally, it is also important to remember that this was not an issue where thousands were against Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s. Rather, it was some from among a small force of 300 sent to Yemen. Not everyone in that force would have resented Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s (according to our sunni brothers), afterall, the virtues of Ali a.s, his superiority, were famous and well known. And so, it may have only been part of the small force of 300.

    And furthermore, after being clearly admonished individually, and as a group, and subsequently spoken to about the need for brotherhood in the farewell sermon, the number that should have still resented Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s due to his incident ought to have been even less than a handful - if they had any regard for the words of Muhammed s.a.w

    No doubt there was mass jealousy and hatred towards Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s., but a sunni brother won't accept that.
    One thing I don't fully understand is:
    Is the sacred/ god given wilayah a spiritual only wilayah over the people, is it a political wilayah that carries the rule/khilafah of Ali.
    Or is it both types?
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    What steps can there be made in order for Shia and Sunni Muslims to coexist peacefully, especially in the Middle East i.e Iraq, Syria?
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
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    I do not delve into these topics personally and it is way above my pay grade.
    I personally follow that I believe about Allah and affirm to him whatever has been affirmed by him and his prophet (in authentic sunnah). Without how, why or generating depictions, there is nothing like him.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Walaykum Salam,

    As for my third question:

    Affirmation that Allah has two feet
    https://islamqa.info/en/166843

    Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allah be pleased with him) said: “The Kursiy (foot stool) is the place of the two feet, and the size of Throne cannot be known.”

    And in Bukhari it states: " Hell will keep saying, ‘Are there any more (to come)?’ until the Lord of Glory, may He be blessed and exalted, places His foot on it, then it will say, ‘Enough, enough, by Your glory!’ And all its parts will be integrated together. "

    According to islamqa: Abu Moosa al-Ash‘ari (may Allah be pleased with him) said: "The Kursiy is the place for the two feet, and it creaks as a saddle creaks. "


    Furthermore, according to islamqa: " It was narrated that Ibn Mas’ood said: Between the first heaven and the one above it is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between each of the heavens is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between the seventh heaven and the Kursiy is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between the Kursiy and the water is (a distance of) five hundred years, and the Throne is above the water. Allaah is above the Throne, and nothing whatsoever of your deeds is hidden from Him. (narrated by Ibn Khuzaymah in al-Tawheed, p. 105; by al-Bayhaqi in al-Asmaa’ wa’l-Sifaat, p. 401).
    Source: https://islamqa.info/en/9566


    A few questions i have:

    1. Do you believe Allah azwj has two feet, but not like ours?
    2. Do you believe his two feet are below the waters, below the throne, and that the rest of Allah azwj is above his throne, but his two feet are below his waters, which are below his throne ?
    3. If you believe in 1 , is that not inconsistent with the notion that Allah azwj can not be divided, that is is ahad, indivisible, and one in his absolute oneness?
    4. If you believe in 2 - surely, Allah azwj does not have a location, he existed before coordinates, before place, before position, and he himself created the term 'where', and hence it can not apply to him. Therefore, if one believes Allah azwj's two feet are below the throne , and below the waters, and over the qursi, surely, that places Allah azwj in seperate locations himself, limits him to coordinates, and brings forth an inconsistency that how can he be above the throne, yet, his two feet be below the waters, and below the throne ?
    5. Allah azwj does not incurr change by his essence. He merely says be and it is. He does not need tools, like we need our hands, feet, eyes, he is free of requiring these. Thus, why does Allah azwj need a foot, and secondlyby putting his foot over hell , does it note place his essence over hell itself, and and by merely putting something over another, does it not mean he incurrs change, in movement, limiting himself to a location?

    And as a seperate question, if the distance between the qursi and the waters is 500 years , and if the two feet of Allah azwj (allegedly) are above the Qursi, it means that the two feet of Allah azwj are a finite distance away from his throne, and Allah azwj thus, has coordinates, atleast for his two feet , and thus a confine and location. Therefore, how can one say we believe Allah azwj is above all of creation with no location', and then say 'Allah azwj has two feet, above the qursi, somewhere within 500 years travelling distance below the waters, and the remainder of him is above the waters, and above the throne which is above the waters?
    Wassalaam

    This is somewhat lazy of me but I refer you back to my post I made in ISOC a few weeks before Ramadhan on this matter; if you do not remember it, I will quote it for you.

    In short: the nature of Allah is only known to Him, so we only affirm what Allah affirms, and we do not go beyond what Allah says, nor do we reduce what Allah says since Allah is beyond the logic and rationalisations of the brains of men.

    And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know." (2:30)

    The angels in this verse knew of a matter of what they could see, yet Allah knows better than what is apparent to them - similarly Allah knows better than what is apparent to us. To delve into such matters is unproductive as Allah makes some things clear and some things obscure.
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    I do not delve into these topics personally and it is way above my pay grade.
    I personally follow that I believe about Allah and affirm to him whatever has been affirmed by him and his prophet (in authentic sunnah). Without how, why or generating depictions, there is nothing like him.
    I respect that, and i agree, itoo follow only what Allah azwj has said of himself and what i consider is from the authentic sunnah.

    I'll rephrase my question, so you may be more comfortable in answering:

    1. IslamQA states Allah azwj has two feet, but those two feet have no likeness to ours (this is what they say). They furthermore say, according to authentic ahadith, those two feet of Allah azwj are above his kursi, which itself is below the waters, which itself, is below the throne. They also affirm that Allah azwj is above his throne, above the seven heavens, and his feet are below the throne, below the waters, but above the qursi.

    Do you agree and affirm what IslamQA says? In doing so, i am not asking you to delve any deeper into the topics, merely i wish to know if you agree or disagree with IslamQa?
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    I respect that, and i agree, itoo follow only what Allah azwj has said of himself and what i consider is from the authentic sunnah.

    I'll rephrase my question, so you may be more comfortable in answering:

    1. IslamQA states Allah azwj has two feet, but those two feet have no likeness to ours (this is what they say). They furthermore say, according to authentic ahadith, those two feet of Allah azwj are above his kursi, which itself is below the waters, which itself, is below the throne. They also affirm that Allah azwj is above his throne, above the seven heavens, and his feet are below the throne, below the waters, but above the qursi.

    Do you agree and affirm what IslamQA says? In doing so, i am not asking you to delve any deeper into the topics, merely i wish to know if you agree or disagree with IslamQa?
    The most simple and straight forward answer being:
    I believe about Allah and affirm to him whatever has been affirmed by him and his prophet (in authentic sunnah). Without how, why or generating depictions, there is nothing like him.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Wassalaam

    This is somewhat lazy of me but I refer you back to my post I made in ISOC a few weeks before Ramadhan on this matter; if you do not remember it, I will quote it for you.

    In short: the nature of Allah is only known to Him, so we only affirm what Allah affirms, and we do not go beyond what Allah says, nor do we reduce what Allah says since Allah is beyond the logic and rationalisations of the brains of men.
    Salamunalaykum, I do remember your post yes brother.

    I want to also affirm as a shia muslim, our belief in Allah azwj and his attributes is only what we believe Allah azwj affirms for himself, and only what we deem to be from the authentic Sunnah.

    I'll try to rephrase my question again. Note, i am not asking you to delve any deeper , or speculate, i merely want to know[as i asked brother farhan]:

    1. IslamQA states Allah azwj has two feet, but those two feet have no likeness to ours (this is what they say). They furthermore say, according to authentic ahadith, those two feet of Allah azwj are above his kursi, which itself is below the waters, which itself, is below the throne. They also affirm that Allah azwj is above his throne, above the seven heavens, and his feet are below the throne, below the waters, but above the qursi.

    Do you agree and affirm what IslamQA says? In doing so, i am not asking you to delve any deeper into the topics, merely i wish to know if you agree or disagree with IslamQa?
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    The most simple and straight forward answer being:
    I believe about Allah and affirm to him whatever has been affirmed by him and his prophet (in authentic sunnah). Without how, why or generating depictions, there is nothing like him.
    Yes, i respect that, but i am asking you if you agree or disagree with what IslamQa have written ?

    Sorry if it seems like i am copying and pasting this once again, but i am only asking you if you affirm or deny what IslamQa have written?

    1. IslamQA states Allah azwj has two feet, but those two feet have no likeness to ours (this is what they say). They furthermore say, according to authentic ahadith, those two feet of Allah azwj are above his kursi, which itself is below the waters, which itself, is below the throne. They also affirm that Allah azwj is above his throne, above the seven heavens, and his feet are below the throne, below the waters, but above the qursi.

    Do you agree and affirm what IslamQA says? In doing so, i am not asking you to delve any deeper into the topics, merely i wish to know if you agree or disagree with IslamQa?
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    x
    I don't get what you are pushing towards.
    I affirm to Allah what has been affirmed in sahih sunnah and hadith and what he swt affirmed in the quran. I don't really go beyond what Allah and his prophet have said. There is no need for me to put these into my own words or try to derive my own meanings or judgment.
    The buck starts and stops on What Allah and his prophet have said.
    Without ifs, buts, hows, or making my own assumptions and definitions.
    There is no answer beyond this.
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    I don't get what you are pushing towards.
    I affirm to Allah what has been affirmed in sahih sunnah and hadith and what he swt affirmed in the quran. I don't really go beyond what Allah and his prophet have said. There is no need for me to put these into my own words or try to derive my own meanings or judgment.
    The buck starts and stops on What Allah and his prophet have said.
    Without ifs, buts, hows, or making my own assumptions and definitions.
    There is no answer beyond this.
    I am not asking you to make any of your own assumptions nor any of your own definitions. I take it that you regard IslamQa as representative of your Aqeedah.

    If so, all i am asking you is, whatever they have claimed to be from the sunnah and to be thus, your aqeedah, do you agree with IslamQa, or not?

    It's really , with the utmost respect, a simple question. If you agree with IslamQa, then you affirm Allah azwj has two feet(nothing like ours), which are above the qursi, but below the waters, and that Allah azwj / the rest of him is above his throne, above the seven heavens.

    Is that your belief? I am not asking you to delve any deeper, or speculate any deeper, merely to affirm or deny whether that is your belief or not?

    Even IslamQa, who have said they do not delve any deeper themselves but merely affirmed have clearly stated, what they are affirming and not questioning is as i have stated, and i would like to know if that is the belief you affirm and do not question?
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    x
    There is really no other answer than what I already said.
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    There is really no other answer than what I already said.
    Do you believe it is going beyond the limits of what is allowed in suni aqeedah to affirm or deny whether it is sunni aqeedah to believe Allah azwj has feet, but not like ours, and that his feet are above the qursi, but below the waters, but he / the remainder is above the throne, above the seven heavens?

    Really, it is not about asking you to delve into places you believe you can't, i am only really asking you to affirm or deny if that is your aqeedah, because as far as i am aware, islamqa may be representative of what you believe.

    In a sense, all i am asking you is to tell me, do you agree with this article from islamqa?:
    https://islamqa.info/en/166843

    All you have so far told me is that you do not affirm to Allah azwj other than what (some of)your scholars you follow inteprete to be what he affirms for himself, and what you believe is an accurate account of authentic narrations about Allah azwj from the Prophet s.a.w. Ofcourse, on both accounts i reject that it is what Allah azwj has affirmed for himself, and that it is authentic sunnah.

    However, i am asking you if what you affirm is what the islamqa article also affirms?

    You could say: Yes, i agree, and i will not delve and further, or No, i do not agree with the article, but i do not want to delve any further.
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    There is really no other answer than what I already said.
    As you have said you affirm only what you believe to be authentic sunnah , and you do not want to delve any deeper than that, then i ask you:

    1. Do you believe, in authentic sunnah, the feet of Allah azwj are above the qursi, but below the waters, and below the arsh?

    2. Allah azwj has two feet?(but not like ours) (do you consider the hadith in bukhari to be authentic, because not all sunni's do)

    3. Do you believe apart from the feet, Allah azwj is above his throne, above the seven heavens?


    I am not asking you to inteprete anything by common sense, logic, reasoning, and fair argumentation. Rather, all i want to know is, do you believe point 1, 2, 3, are contained in the sunnah, and do you thus affirm them without delving deeper?

    If you say that you will not answer the quesion, because you merely affirm what you (believe) to be from Allah azwj and his Messenger (s.a.w), that doesn't answer the question, because even i agree with the two conditions, yet dispute points 1,2,3, ever even came from Allah azwj, or his messenger. Hence what i am asking you is, do you affirm that these points have indeed come from Allah azj and his messenger s.a.w?
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    x
    As I mentioned.
    At this particular moment I can't go further than what I already said.
    Regardless of how many times you quote.
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    As I mentioned.
    At this particular moment I can't go further than what I already said.
    Regardless of how many times you quote.
    Is there a paticular reason why you won't affirm what you believe Allah azwj affirms, and what you believe is in the Sunnah of Muhammed s.a.w?

    It's to allow me to understand, because even my previous discussions with a number of brothers on this issue, even salafi brothers, they have made it clear they won't delve deeper, but they are open to acknowledge what they believe is in the Quran and Sunnah.

    If there is no reason, then that's fine, and i accept your personal preference.

    If there is a religious reason, i would like to know, if that's okay.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    I'm currently working on an answer to your question with regards to the naming. It will involve:

    1. Addressing the claim that Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s named his son Abu Bakr. [I have already written on this to zamestaneh, but i will write another post]
    2. The he named his son Umar, and Uthman, after the second and third caliphs respectively.
    3. In addition, i will address some of the finer points you have raised, such as - 'naming someone out of veneration, vs a name that means goodness (by its menaing.

    Furthermore, i am also working on making a compilation of all the authentic ahadith, and all the companions of the Ahlulbayt of Muhammed asws,, who narrated ahadith from them, and are named: Yazid, Muawiyah, have the Qunya Abu Bakr , as well as Umar and Uthman[this is taking up time, as i am attemping to go through as much of Al Kafi as possible].

    I have a number of other things i am doing, and as i want to address the above issues thoroughly, and reflect and deeply think about what you have brought (as opposed to writing a refutation for the sake of refuting), i'll need a little bit of time.
    I look forward to detailed answer inshaAllah.


    I myself, have three questions i would like to ask you, inshAllah, and you are free to take your time in answering these:

    1. We both acknowledge, as per authentic ahadith, that Fatima a.s, the daughter of Muhammed s.a.w, died angry with the Caliph, Abu Bakr. Not only that, she stopped speaking to him altogether, until she died. As well as that, she never pledged her allegiance to him[what is the nature of one who does not pledge allegiance and recognize the leader of their time?], and Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s did not inform him of her death, and buried him secretly at night, and recited the funeral prayer himself. We do not even know for certian (there are disputes) exactly where her Tomb is today. - What do you think about this?
    No we both don't knowledge that Fatima r.a.a died angry at Abubakar r.a.a.



    2. I came across the following hadith by accident, whilst looking for something else. I was a little surprised to find it, and thought perhaps it would be better to know how a sunni brother reconciles their belief in the four rightly guided caliph, and ahadith like the following:

    Saheeh Al Bukhari: I saw `Uthman and `Ali. `Uthman used to forbid people to perform Hajj-at-Tamattu` and Hajj-al- Qiran (Hajj and `Umra together), and when `Ali saw (this act of `Uthman), he assumed Ihram for Hajj and `Umra together saying, "Lubbaik for `Umra and Hajj," and said, "I will not leave the tradition of the Prophet (ﷺ) on the saying of somebody."

    Yes, i understand Uthman may not be M'asum, but this goes beyond merely being M'asum. Note Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s's pretty harsh words about what he felt about Uthmans viewpoint.
    Sunan an Nisai[Saheeh]: "I heard 'Ali binHusain narrating from Marwan, that 'Uthman forbade Mut'ah and joining Hajj and "Umrah. 'Ali said; 'Labbaika bi Hajjatin wa 'Umratin ma'an Here I am, (O Allah) for Hajj and "Umrah together. 'Uthman said: 'Are you doing this when I have forbidden it?' 'Ali said; 'I will not give up the Summah of the Messenger of Allah for any of the people.''
    The simplest and quickest answer for this:
    Both sahabis performed ijtihad and both gain their reward. This is furthered by the fact that uthman never rebuked or answer back Ali for his disagreement bearing in mind that uthman was the imam at the time.
    Ps please answer my earlier question about the thing I don't understand about the wilayah.
 
 
 
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