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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    I don't particularly understand your response here.

    I am not talking about the reasoning for wearing a hjab. I am saying the action of tearing off the hjab is driven by Islamophobia.

    People have a fear of things that do not exist all the time ( IE Ghosts).

    People also have a fear of Islamisation and therefore, that results in them attacking Muslims physically.

    I am not here to say YOU are Islamophobic. I completely agree with your line of questioning with regards to religion and etc. However, some people's fear of Islam leads to them to take irrational positions ( IE violence)
    You've gone off point. The OP's argument is sound and is plainly true. It is a politically motivated nonsense word. A phobia is an irrational fear. It's not irrational to fear Islam. Yet you use a nonsense word to apply to someone who rips the veil of someone or bomb a mosque. Why not just say what it is instead of labelling such behaviour with a nonsense word. That is foolish.
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    (Original post by Marco1)
    You've gone off point. The OP's argument is sound and is plainly true. It is a politically motivated nonsense word. A phobia is an irrational fear. It's not irrational to fear Islam. Yet you use a nonsense word to apply to someone who rips the veil of someone or bomb a mosque. Why not just say what it is instead of labelling such behaviour with a nonsense word. That is foolish.
    It may not be irrational to fear Islam, but surely it's irrational to fear all Muslims, firebomb Mosques, rip off hijabs and tar all Muslims with the same brush as extremists??

    That's like fearing all Christians because you think that they're all homophobes and violent Ku Klux Klan supporters...
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    (Original post by Lh030396)
    It may not be irrational to fear Islam, but surely it's irrational to fear all Muslims, firebomb Mosques, rip off hijabs and tar all Muslims with the same brush as extremists??.
    But that's anti-Muslim bigotry - usually inspired by your bog-standard xenophobia and racism.

    I would suggest that most right-wing nutjobs aren't physically attacking Muslims and mosques because of a hatred towards the ideology of Islam as laid out in the Quran and sunnah, but rather because they see Muslims as Brown Foreigners with Strange Ways.
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    (Original post by welshiee)
    Homosexuals are not going around beheading people because they follow some disturbing 7th century ideology now, are they? They get persecuted for acting upon nothing more than their natural instinct - something that actually exists.
    How many muslims are going around beheading people? I'm a muslim and I've never done that :laugh:. I'm a very practising muslim. You need to understand that muslims aren't all the same, I've met alot of muslims in my life and I can assure you you'd be surprised at how diverse the opinions on how to follow our religion are. Everyone has very different interpretations of the quran and teachings.
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    (Original post by 1010marina)
    Honestly there's not much room for interpretation in that passage and many besides.

    Not arguing that many Muslims don't agree 100% with some of the brutality, but then I have to question why they follow the rest of the religion. Idk. I couldn't just 'overlook' something like that ygm?
    Just because you wouldn't overlook something it doesn't mean others wouldn't, we're not all the same as you lol. I believe that because life is a test perhaps god wants to test how compassionate we are. So if I don't think some parts of the quran are right because following it would not be the compassionate thing to do I would not follow those parts. Basically I believe God wants to test how selfless we are maybe. Some people may follow everything because they are selfish and want to get to heaven even if its at the expense of another person. But I don't agree with that. I'm not the type of person to trample over others for my own benefit. Muslims are very diverse individuals just like humans from any other background. We all have different minds and a different way of looking at things. Please don't lump us all together.
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    (Original post by celina10)
    How many muslims are going around beheading people? I'm a muslim and I've never done that :laugh:. I'm a very practising muslim. You need to understand that muslims aren't all the same, I've met alot of muslims in my life and I can assure you you'd be surprised at how diverse the opinions on how to follow our religion are. Everyone has very different interpretations of the quran and teachings.
    You start off by saying that because you, as a Muslim, don't do something, then it is not representaive of Muslims.
    Then in the next breath you say that Muslims are incredibly diverse in their interpretation of Islam.

    So, are you saying that you can generalise about the behaviour of Muslims, or you can't? :confused:

    Are you saying that all Muslims' interpretations are acceptable, or only some? (In which case, how do you determine whose opinions are valid?) :confused:

    Thanks.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    You start off by saying that because you, as a Muslim, don't do something, then it is not representaive of Muslims.
    Then in the next breath you say that Muslims are incredibly diverse in their interpretation of Islam.

    So, are you saying that you can generalise about the behaviour of Muslims, or you can't? :confused:

    Are you saying that all Muslims' interpretations are acceptable, or only some? (In which case, how do you determine whose opinions are valid?) :confused:

    Thanks.
    I'm saying it would be stupid to generalise all muslims because if you actually speak to muslims on their opinions of Islam you'd see that they have different interpretations of it. In the same way people from whichever background you come from aren't all the same, not all muslims are the same.

    Only God knows whose right and whose wrong but in my opinion killing innocent people and unjustly discriminating against people is wrong and anyone who does those things isn't a muslim in my eyes.
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    (Original post by celina10)
    Just because you wouldn't overlook something it doesn't mean others wouldn't, we're not all the same as you lol. I believe that because life is a test perhaps god wants to test how compassionate we are. So if I don't think some parts of the quran are right because following it would not be the compassionate thing to do I would not follow those parts. Basically I believe God wants to test how selfless we are maybe. Some people may follow everything because they are selfish and want to get to heaven even if its at the expense of another person. But I don't agree with that. I'm not the type of person to trample over others for my own benefit. Muslims are very diverse individuals just like humans from any other background. We all have different minds and a different way of looking at things. Please don't lump us all together.
    I think you'll find that this interpretation of Islam is not really considered as "Islam" by most scholars.
    The very idea that individual Muslims can pick and choose which bits of the Quran to accept and reject is not only anathema, but is explicitly forbidden within the Quran- although I guess you could just reject those verses, problem solved!

    Don't get me wrong, I think that taking a allegorical, metaphorical and non-literal approach to the Quran is the only way forward for Islam, but we are going to have a bit of a job convincing the vast majority of Muslims!
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    (Original post by QE2)
    I think you'll find that this interpretation of Islam is not really considered as "Islam" by most scholars.
    The very idea that individual Muslims can pick and choose which bits of the Quran to accept and reject is not only anathema, but is explicitly forbidden within the Quran- although I guess you could just reject those verses, problem solved!

    Don't get me wrong, I think that taking a allegorical, metaphorical and non-literal approach to the Quran is the only way forward for Islam, but we are going to have a bit of a job convincing the vast majority of Muslims!
    How do you know the vast majority of muslims think that way? Have you asked everyone?
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    (Original post by celina10)
    I'm saying it would be stupid to generalise all muslims because if you actually speak to muslims on their opinions of Islam you'd see that they have different interpretations of it. In the same way people from whichever background you come from aren't all the same, not all muslims are the same
    Very true. Unfortunately, the majority see the classical "it really is all the perfect, unchangeable, universal and timeless word of god" approach as the acceptable interpretations. Mainly because that's what the Quran and sunnah repeatedly insist.

    Only God knows whose right and whose wrong but in my opinion killing innocent people and unjustly discriminating against people is wrong and anyone who does those things isn't a muslim in my eyes.
    Well, this is the important issue. According to the majority classical interpretations (Ibn Kathir, Tabari, etc), It is wrong to kill innocent people or discriminate unjustly.
    However (and this is a big "however"), according to those classical scholars, people who oppose or refuuse to submit to Islam, or who disobey Allah's laws or encourage others to disobey them - they are not considered "innocent". And the punishment for them as laid down in the Quran and sunnah includes death (although they will be spared if they submit to Islam).
    Likewise, discrimination against gays, other religions, and so on, is not considered "unjust" because it is sanctioned by god and is therefore, by definition, "just".
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    (Original post by celina10)
    How do you know the vast majority of muslims think that way? Have you asked everyone?
    I have held discussions on such issues with dozens of Muslims, and I would say that I have encoutered maybe three or four who hold your position that you can cherry-pick the Quran to suit.

    Pop over to the ISOC thread on the Faith and Spirituality forum and suggest that such an approach is acceptable. I predict 100% disagreement.

    Also, just visit any Islamic scholar's website. You will not find one that advocates a non literalist approach.

    I'm sure that there are some who hold that view privately, but would be reluctant to air it publicly.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    I have held discussions on such issues with dozens of Muslims, and I would say that I have encoutered maybe three or four who hold your position that you can cherry-pick the Quran to suit.

    Pop over to the ISOC thread on the Faith and Spirituality forum and suggest that such an approach is acceptable. I predict 100% disagreement.

    Also, just visit any Islamic scholar's website. You will not find one that advocates a non literalist approach.

    I'm sure that there are some who hold that view privately, but would be reluctant to air it publicly.
    I can understand why people might be reluctant to admit their actual views. They're probably scared of being judged maybe, muslims don't look down on non muslims but they do look down on ex muslims or muslims who have different views to them. There are different sects within Islam and some people from certain sects look down on people from others.

    To be honest alot of people are drifting away from Islam, my siblings are all athiests but they wouldn't openly admit this so its difficult to tell what views people truly hold
 
 
 
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