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    Ditch it and believe in Jesus Christ, as He treated men and women as EQUAL!


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    #4

    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Because Christians are not the ones trying to justify child marriage on this thread or failing to answer the OP's points.
    I have noticed though that non-muslims maybe mainly atheists come like there is no tomorrow on threads realted to islam but not with other religions. Quite interesting actually. If they are truly fair they would do the same for other religions and take their scriptures literally without looking at the context too.
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    I was exactly in the same boat 5 years ago. I left Islam. The more research I did the more I resented it. Don't get me wrong, I have no hate for the average Muslim, it's thhe religion I don't like. Honestly, just keep researching with an open mind. I feel like any sane person will leave Islam when they actually know about some of the things in the Qur'an (like men being able to beat their wives for disobeying them or how pedophillia is acceptable but homophobia is outrageous).Islam, Judasim and Christianity are all pretty similar. Either they are fake religions or God is a sexist homophobe.
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    (Original post by mercuryman)
    you're right: it is permissible to marry someone once they've reached puberty, but only if there is valid consent between both parties. Without consent it would just be a forced marriage which is universally unacceptable.
    So, child marriage is acceptable in Islam.

    And you think a 9 year old can consent to marriage and the consequences of marriage?
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    I have noticed though that non-muslims maybe mainly atheists come like there is no tomorrow on threads realted to islam but not with other religions. Quite interesting actually. If they are truly fair they would do the same for other religions and take their scriptures literally without looking at the context too.
    Sorry, but in no other thread would you have 3 other users justifying child marriage. It won't happen.

    This is the 3rd Muslim user in ONE THREAD, that is talking about child marriage with me.

    So, if you don't see there is a problem, then I cannot help you.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    So, child marriage is acceptable in Islam.
    I fail to see how it is a child marriage to begin with. When is an individual considered a child? The definition of a child is: 'a young human being below the age of puberty' Did I not just specify that marriage in islam has to occur after both parties have reached puberty?



    (Original post by DorianGrayism)

    And you think a 9 year old can consent to marriage and the consequences of marriage?

    It really depends on whether she has reached puberty, ( I don't know any 9 year olds that have gone through puberty so it would be an instant no if she hadn't )

    if she has reached puberty at 9, then I as her guardian need to assess whether she is competent and mature enough to make a decision for herself. A 9 Year old in most cases is not competent in making life impacting decisions like that.

    So no, I wouldn't allow my 9 year old (who has somehow gone through puberty in this day and age) to marry if I deem her incompetent in making decisions for herself.

    You're a med student yourself you should get the gist of where I'm coming from.
    • #4
    #4

    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Sorry, but in no other thread would you have 3 other users justifying child marriage. It won't happen.

    This is the 3rd Muslim user in ONE THREAD, that is talking about child marriage with me.

    So, if you don't see there is a problem, then I cannot help you.
    As far I have read, the answers are clearly given to you but I don't think you are understanding them. You are misusing the word "child" a bit too much to justify your reasonings or more like it seems that you want to be seen as the wise one. Sorry but I rest my case here. I have read from both sides.
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    (Original post by mercuryman)
    I fail to see how it is a child marriage to begin with. When is an individual considered a child? The definition of a child is: 'a young human being below the age of puberty' Did I not just specify that marriage in islam has to occur after both parties have reached puberty?.
    Well, I am using the one defined by the UN:

    The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child defines child as "a human being below the age of 18 years unless under the law applicable to the child, majority is attained earlier"

    The difference between Adult and Child is one about legal responsibility as opposed to biology.



    (Original post by mercuryman)
    It really depends on whether she has reached puberty, ( I don't know any 9 year olds that have gone through puberty so it would be an instant no if she hadn't )

    if she has reached puberty at 9, then I as her guardian need to assess whether she is competent and mature enough to make a decision for herself. A 9 Year old in most cases is not competent in making life impacting decisions like that.

    So no, I wouldn't allow my 9 year old (who has somehow gone through puberty in this day and age) to marry if I deem her incompetent in making decisions for herself.

    You're a med student yourself you should get the gist of where I'm coming from.
    So, that means, if Dad thinks that his 9 year old is "competent" enough to be married off then it is OK?
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    As far I have read, the answers are clearly given to you but I don't think you are understanding them. You are misusing the word "child" a bit too much to justify your reasonings or more like it seems that you want to be seen as the wise one. Sorry but I rest my case here. I have read from both sides.
    Well, then don't use the word.

    Say 9 year old or 12 year old instead. I don't care.

    You simply don't want to deal with the issue and want to play semantics about what constitutes a child.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)



    I am not sure what this has to do with Islam itself and your objections to it - rather that shows a flaw within the people themselves which I agree with you on. People should strive to understand the Quran.

    can i ask why islams main book was then revealed in a dialect of arabic so confusing and also rhetorical, that most muslims cant actually
    understand it properly ( if your argument is most ppl mis-interpret it) . id guess 99% of muslims on tsr dont fully understand it either - how are they supposed to follow it properly? Did mohammed actually mean for it to reach them ?
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Well, I am using the one defined by the UN:

    The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child defines child as "a human being below the age of 18 years unless under the law applicable to the child, majority is attained earlier"

    The difference between Adult and Child is one about legal responsibility as opposed to biology.
    Ok then by your definition 'child marriages' are allowed in the UK and US too (if parental consent is given) Do you see how stupid that makes your argument now?


    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    So, that means, if Dad thinks that his 9 year old is "competent" enough to be married off then it is OK?
    Dad and Mum***


    NO. Have you not been reading what I've been typing to you for the past 20 mins?

    I'll break it down for you/
    1. Has the individual has reached puberty
    Spoiler:
    Show
    Yes? ok next stage.
    No? dismiss marriage
    2. Is the mother and father unanimously agreeing that the individual is competent and her soon-to-be spouse is also someone who is competent?
    Spoiler:
    Show

    Yes? ok next stage.
    No? dismiss marriage
    3. Is the individual consulted and given unbiased and non-misleading advice on the matter, including the pros and cons?
    Spoiler:
    Show

    Yes? ok next stage.
    No? dismiss marriage
    4. Has the individual firmly agreed to even get married, considering the Pros and Cons.
    Spoiler:
    Show
    Yes? ok next stage
    No? dismiss marriage

    All of the above need to be ticked for the marriage to happen Even if 3/4 are right; marriage by islam is not permissible.

    Islam isn't the problem when muslims marry prepubescent girls in certain parts of the world, It's culture and tradition.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    x
    My advice for dealing with this is to ask yourself one simple question regarding every contentious issue.

    Does this make more sense as the work of the infallible, omniscient, omnipotent, all just, all merciful creator of the universe and all life within it - or does it make more sense as the work of 7th century Arab men?

    Answer that question honestly and sincerely to yourself, and everything will become clear.
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    (Original post by sulaimanali)
    Islam is a religion of peace
    No it isn't.
    Islam is a religion of peace and violence, of freedom and oppression, of tolerance and intolerance.

    Anyone denying this either hasn't read the Quran (and sunnah) or is being deliberately dishonest.

    and is the right way...
    Only if you believe Islam to be true.
    If you don't (and that's the majority of the world's population) it is not.

    if you become more religious, seek knowledge with a good and right condition...you're faith will come back. Faith is a fluctuating thing...everyone has doubts one time or another..it's human nature. Overcome your 'nafs' and the Shaytaan.
    People addicted to opiates are usually happy with their condition and will readily justify it. Sometimes they feel the need to come off drugs. When they stop, life often becomes better. Other addicts will often attempt to persuade them to continue. If they start taking heroin again, they often lose the urge to stay off it.
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    (Original post by Chakede)
    can i ask why islams main book was then revealed in a dialect of arabic so confusing and also rhetorical, that most muslims cant actually
    understand it properly ( if your argument is most ppl mis-interpret it) . id guess 99% of muslims on tsr dont fully understand it either - how are they supposed to follow it properly? Did mohammed actually mean for it to reach them ?
    That isnt the point I was making. Rather I meant was that some people have read the Quran in arabic without ever understanding what they recite, therefore they don't benefit from the Quran or learn anything, instead taking knowledge from elders and Imams rather reading for themselves (even a translation) and developing a basic understanding.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    I don't think she's real. Shes trying to make her religion look oppressive to her. Heres are some things you haven't considered. The husband's duty is to love, clothe, provide, show care, speak softly, comfort, compliment and love his wife. He is religiously obliged to satisfy his wife in bed regardless of whether he has been satisfied himself and even after reaching orgasm. He has to respect her rights and treat her body with respect - he isn't allowed to have sex with her before foreplay, he isn't allowed to force himself onto her. He isn't allowed to engage is anal sex = bad for health, unhygienic and painful. He isn't allowed to have her sex with her during her periods. Sounds very oppressive to me.
    Even if all the above is true, he is also permitted to beat her, under certain circumstances, and he inherits twice what she does, and hi testimony is worth twice what hers is in some situations, and she is punished if she refuses to have sex with him.

    Personally, I don't think that being instructed to be nice to your wife (why would you need to be told?) excuses also being allowed to beat her (under certain circumstances). Do you?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    My advice for dealing with this is to ask yourself one simple question regarding every contentious issue.

    Does this make more sense as the work of the infallible, omniscient, omnipotent, all just, all merciful creator of the universe and all life within it - or does it make more sense as the work of 7th century Arab men?

    Answer that question honestly and sincerely to yourself, and everything will become clear.
    Respectfully, even if God introduced a new religion in 2020, QE2000 would still come out with "does this make more sense as... or as the work of 21st century men?". There is nothing that could ever convince you of a deity, instead you would keep arguing with God (if He showed Hinself to you) demanding to know who created Him, only thinking of Him as an advanced lifeform that you don't understand fully, so I don't think your logic is something sensible which should be exported as it doesn't actually lead anywhere.
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    (Original post by HAnwar)
    Salam
    Feel free to PM me and I can try and help as a fellow Muslim sister

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Yes, don't present an argument in public. That way it cannot be dismantled.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    I'm simply debunking her claim that Islam is somehow oppressive towards her or women in general. Quite clearly it isn't if the same rules apply to men as well.
    So, wives are allowed to beat disobedient husbands (under certain circumstances? A sister can inherit twice what the brother inherits? A Womans testimony can be worth twice a man's? Husbands are cursed by the angels if they refuse to have sex with their wives? Women are allowed four husbands?, etc, etc...

    You have debunked nothing. You simply made an assertion that is demonstrably false.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    All the points I made in OP, I have done lots of background research on them, what's disheartening is everything I said is what the majority of Muslim scholars agree on. People say you should make sacrifices for your religion. But is it always women that have to make majority of the huge sacrifices? How does that make Islam equal? It seems the only value a woman is given in Islam is as a mother.

    There are so many contradictions. On one hand "there's no compulsion in religion". But on the other hand, if you decide to leave the religion you should be executed. This is supported in the hadiths and Quran. How is that a just and merciful God?

    The other thing is that when I'm down I enjoy listening to music, it makes me happy, thoughtful, eases stress or reflective. But music apparently is also forbidden. I understand filthy or vulgar music being banned but apparently music is haraam even instruments. So now when I listen to music I just feel guilty for enjoying it. It seems everything enjoyable is not allowed. What kinda life is that? There may be a heaven and hell. But don't forget we only live this earthly life once and no one really knows what's there after death. No one can say for certain what's coming next. I do believe we as humans need guidelines and rules, it's a good thing but why can't we enjoy our life on Earth without feeling guilty and having so many restrictions placed upon us, as long as we're being sensible what harm will it do. I admit I still need to seek deeper knowledge on this topic but from what I've read,the vast majority of scholars believe is that it is prohibited particularly songs that make you want to dance.

    Even dr.nakir, TSR saviour agrees that sex slaves are permissible, I just watchec his video on YouTube. Don't you consider that rape? Why would God allow such a thing? How is that peaceful? Why are there so many contradictions, we can't even agree on a date for Eid.

    How many people blindly follow a religion they don't even understand. How many followers in the subcontinent even understand Arabic? They following what they've been told by imams and their parents. They couldn't translate a line of the Quran apart from maybe the kalima if you asked them. They reciting and reciting something in Arabic and they don't even know what is being said.

    Quran (53:27) - "Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names." Angels are sublime beings, and would therefore be male. Is that not sexist?
    You've hit the nail on the head, virtually everything that's enjoyable in life is declared a sin in Islam. It's clear that this ideology doesn't agree with you and it's a shame that you should feel guilty about enjoying things which are genuinely pleasurable and harmless. I suggest you leave Islam completely to end this inner turmoil where your innate moral compass is telling you that Islam is not the truth.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    I have noticed though that non-muslims maybe mainly atheists come like there is no tomorrow on threads realted to islam but not with other religions. Quite interesting actually. If they are truly fair they would do the same for other religions and take their scriptures literally without looking at the context too.
    Not interesting at all because virtually all of the threads on here are about Islam so there's not much choice about which ones to comment on. Not that your point is even a good one, you're effectively just trying to distract us from criticising Islam by criticising other religions too.
 
 
 
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