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Should trans people be allowed to receive free reassignment surgery on the NHS? Watch

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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    If they don't have chemo, then they have other physical treatment. My point is that cancer is not psychological and can only be cured biologically, and if someone refuses this biological treatment, they can't be helped. How is that stupid to say?
    I do know that people refuse further treatment if their cancer returned or they've been given a terminal diagnosis.
    Actually no. One of my family members took so many treatments that made her worse to the point where it killed her so please don't tell me if a cancer patient refuses furthur treatment they'll die.
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    If they don't have chemo, then they have other physical treatment. My point is that cancer is not psychological and can only be cured biologically, and if someone refuses this biological treatment, they can't be helped. How is that stupid to say?
    I do know that people refuse further treatment if their cancer returned or they've been given a terminal diagnosis.

    Funny that you call it poison yet it saves thousands of lives
    It's stupid to say the first thing you said which solely related to chemo and made no mention as to surgery, radio therapy etc.

    No it's not especially funny, if you actually knew what drugs are used in Chemo you'd know that calling it poison is about as accurate a description as possible. I never once said nor implied it doesn't save lives, don't make up ********.
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    No - and not on the NHS. Like others have said, they are a tiny portion of the general population and it is unfair to have the state spend tonnes of money on surgery for a mentally deluded person. A Swedish study has shown that the rate of suicide is still very high for those after "the op" when compared to the general population. So clearly, surgery isn't the answer, these people need help and support of a psychological manner. And the money being spent on the gender reassignment surgery is a huge waste, which could be better spent on mental health provisions for the country. In the case that one is adamant on the surgery (after therapy and after seeing mental health professionals, I'm talking at least 2 years of it), then they can pay for it themselves.

    The aforementioned study: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0016885
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    I hate to sound like an SJW, but I can't help but point it out when LGBT people and/or other minorities shoot themselves in the foot like this, it's just too funny to ignore. What you're basically saying is "cis people can't define this word, only trans people can." So in effect you're giving trans people superiority over everyone else, which is direct discrimination based on sexuality. I suppose you'd call it cisist? Some of you people are such hypocrites.
    This article addresses a similar issue

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-lamar-beyonce

    "All kinds of people have been weighing in on the politics of Kendrick Lamar and Beyoncé’s recent performances. But sometimes, just sometimes, it’s black voices that matter most"
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    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)
    Multiple people in this thread have talked about cancer as a comparison for NHS funding. I was continuing the comparison. That funding cancer treatment is being used as a reason why trans people shouldn't be allowed hormones and surgeries on the NHS but people with cancer still CHOOSE to receive treatment. Also, many people say that other cosmetic surgeries aren't on the NHS but if a cis woman has a mastectomy due to breast cancer she's offered implants. Sometimes the NHS will even do it all in the same operation.

    Also, I'm trans so if you're cis then you have absolutely no business telling me what is and isn't transphobic.

    Oh, and as someone who is both mentally ill and trans: most of the rhetoric based on whether or not being trans is a mental illness is incredibly saneist because it relies on the idea that it's bad and wrong to be mentally ill and that mentally ill people shouldn't be able to make decisions about our bodies and our lives because we're worth less than people who don't have mental illnesses and that **** needs to stop.
    :lolwut: Please tell me that was a joke?
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    (Original post by Electrospective)
    No - and not on the NHS. Like others have said, they are a tiny portion of the general population and it is unfair to have the state spend tonnes of money on surgery for a mentally deluded person. A Swedish study has shown that the rate of suicide is still very high for those after "the op" when compared to the general population. So clearly, surgery isn't the answer, these people need help and support of a psychological manner. And the money being spent on the gender reassignment surgery is a huge waste, which could be better spent on mental health provisions for the country. In the case that one is adamant on the surgery (after therapy and after seeing mental health professionals, I'm talking at least 2 years of it), then they can pay for it themselves.

    The aforementioned study: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0016885
    From that study

    "the current study is only informative with respect to transsexuals persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per seincreases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment. As an analogy, similar studies have found increased somatic morbidity, suicide rate, and overall mortality for patients treated for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. "

    Would you argue that treatment should be withdrawn from patients with bipolar or schizophrenia?

    It goes on to say

    "Other facets to consider are first that this study reflects the outcome of psychiatric and somatic treatment for transsexualism provided in Sweden during the 1970s and 1980s. Since then, treatment has evolved with improved sex reassignment surgery, refined hormonal treatment, and more attention to psychosocial care that might have improved the outcome."


    As I posted above - there are a LOT of more recent studies that show efficacy of transition as a treatment pathway for trans people. Have a read of http://genderanalysis.net/2015/09/pa...r-analysis-10/
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    (Original post by Galaxie501)
    The suicide rate after transitional surgery is also high.

    So thats non-argument.

    minimarshmallow


    What about the people who are depressed because of their body image? (tiny breats, overweight etc). I assume you would support NHS funding for the respective operations as well.
    Trans people sometimes attempt (and complete) suicide after they have had bottom surgery (which is what people talk about when they talk about 'the surgery') and are in a body that they are happy with (not all trans people want to transition medically in the same way or at all - and all choices are legitimate) for many reasons. Because they've been rejected by family or friends after coming out as trans. Because they experience transphobic abuse in their lives. Because they struggle to find employment (rates of unemployment for trans people are ridiculously high due to discrimination). Because mental health professional are awful at treating trans patients for any mental illness. And because trans people are people and people sometimes kill themselves.

    Don't blame trans people for societies transphobia.



    Also, I have depression and severe body image issues due to an eating disorder. I'm also trans. Gender dysphoria is very different from depression.
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    (Original post by PQ)
    From that study

    "the current study is only informative with respect to transsexuals persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per seincreases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment. As an analogy, similar studies have found increased somatic morbidity, suicide rate, and overall mortality for patients treated for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. "

    Would you argue that treatment should be withdrawn from patients with bipolar or schizophrenia?

    It goes on to say

    "Other facets to consider are first that this study reflects the outcome of psychiatric and somatic treatment for transsexualism provided in Sweden during the 1970s and 1980s. Since then, treatment has evolved with improved sex reassignment surgery, refined hormonal treatment, and more attention to psychosocial care that might have improved the outcome."


    As I posted above - there are a LOT of more recent studies that show efficacy of transition as a treatment pathway for trans people. Have a read of http://genderanalysis.net/2015/09/pa...r-analysis-10/

    Ohh fair enough. I'll check out that study.

    Well not all treatment, just the antipsychotics. The only reason antipsychotics are so widely used is that it shuts people up at the right doses, and it has been shown to (oh **** what's the word? lol) cause your cognition to be worse. It does have a not so good effect on the brain after long term use, not to mention the side-effects, diabetes, tremors, weight gain, etc. They are the worst things to be on, glad I'm off it.

    Also the link I gave you may reflect treatment provided in the 70s and 80s, but they did follow up transsexuals for 30 years.

    Plus the link you said:


    Most of the surgically treated patients described themselves as “satisfied” by the results".

    Are there any numbers to back this up? Like no. of suicides, no. of unemployed, etc.? And are they satisfied right after the surgery, 1 year later, 5 years later or even 15 years later?



    I couldn't access the full study, I don't know the drop out rate of the study plus 107 people is a bit small for a study like that.



    • Another study of 50 trans women who received genital surgery found that their physical and mental health was not significantly different from samples of cis women.
    Same thing here, a sample size of 50 is quite small. And where is mention of the suicide rate?



    • A 2013 study of 433 trans people in Canada found that 27% of those who hadn’t begun transitioning had attempted suicide in the past year, but this dropped to 1% for those who were finished transitioning.
    Same problem here, I can't access the whole study. But from the bit I can see, the abstract.




    "Trans PULSE Project (n=433), we estimated that suicidal thoughts were experienced by 36% of trans Ontarians over the past year, and that 10% attempted suicide during that time. Moreover, we documented that youth and those experiencing transphobia and lack of support are at heightened risk. Suicidality varied greatly by medical transition status, with those who were planning to transition sex, but who had not yet begun, being most vulnerable."


    Doesn't really show the effectiveness of the actual process of transitioning. These poor people probably think transition is the answer for them, which could explain why many are suicidal before hand, plus the dysphoria itself ofc.




    • And a 2010 meta-analysis of 28 studies showed that 78% of trans people showed animprovement in psychiatric symptoms after transitioning, with a level of psychological functioning similar to the general population and greater than that of untreated trans people.
    I thought this would be the most promising, I was ready to change my opinion. But, no mention of suicide rates. And the study says this...




    The results: "....All the studies were observational and most lacked controls."

    The conclusion: "Very low quality evidence suggests that sex reassignment that includes hormonal interventions in individuals with GID likely improves gender dysphoria, psychological functioning and comorbidities, sexual function and overall quality of life."


    Sooo.....




    I think the best kind of study would directly compare two large groups of transgenders. Ones that have received surgery and the other which has received an alternative treatment option.
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    Mental health problems should be treated. Gender reassignment surgery is purely physical.
    might help if you actually understood the pathway in the NHS and the wider international evidence and consensus in the WPATH guidelines ...
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    (Original post by tanyapotter)
    Sounds like you think the solution is to make people stop being trans and to help them to "accept" the gender they were born with... which is ominously similar to conversion therapy (an extremely transphobic and unethical practice which is illegal in many countries). Gender reassignment surgery is a way to treat gender dysphoria - what don't you understand about that?
    1. utter ignorance

    2. overt or covert transphobia / homophobia ( as many people seem to wish to confuse gender identity and sexuality)

    3. believing the bigotry of the religious right and /or the 'gender critical radical feminists'

    4. the belief that anything other than cisnormative heterosexuality is a choice
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    (Original post by Ezme39)
    Hormones can delay puberty and give the child time to decide. Pre-puberty, suicide rates are lower as the person has not been forced to grow into a body that they do not identify with.
    This causes no long term damage to the person, and normal puberty begins if they choose to stop taking the hormones.
    It gives them time to decide.
    Surgery is not usually, if ever, an option for someone pre-puberty- and the hormones are not transitional, as they have not actually developed the body of their gender.
    I studied this with someone who works for a prominent trans charity, and he was massively in favour of letting children delay their puberty if they strongly believed that they were trans.
    as it stands the treatment offered to under 16s is mainly psychological support, however at tanner stage II drug therapy to delay puberty may be considered - cross sex hormones aren;t started until 16 and use the same criteria as adult patients to begin them - including diagnosis, confirmation of diagnosis , RLE and so on ...
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    (Original post by Ezme39)
    A very good question, and actually also a debated point.
    If we're considering the same level of negative outcomes, and no alternative counselling were appropriate or indicated by evidence - I wonder whether this mental distress would warrant surgery.
    breast asymmetry correction can be provided on the NHS if the relevant clinicla criteria are met
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    (Original post by Electrospective)
    I think the best kind of study would directly compare two large groups of transgenders. Ones that have received surgery and the other which has received an alternative treatment option.
    That would be highly unethical (and fwiw "transgenders" is not a polite way to refer to trans people - trans and transgender is a verb not a noun, the equivalent would be to refer to "blacks" or "gays" or "disableds"). Especially to withhold treatment from "large numbers" of trans people considering there are very small numbers undergoing transition at any point.

    WPATH has been collating evidence and efficacy of treatment since 1979 to inform it's Standards of Care guidelines. Their entire reason for existing is to find the safest and most effective treatments for trans people. https://amo_hub_content.s3.amazonaws...ull%20Book.pdf

    Which "alternative treatment option" would you advocate?
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    (Original post by biglad2k16)
    I know it already exists on the Nhs but is it appropriate or is it a waste of money?
    No. People complaining that it makes them depressed should remember that many other male/ females get depressed about the way they look, yet they're not entitled to free surgery?
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    (Original post by Josb)
    The cost for male to female reassignment is $7,000 to $24,000. The cost for female to male reassignment can exceed $50,000.

    <snip>
    The total cost of gender reassignments is ridiculous compared to cancer treatments.
    ridiculously TINY

    The entire NHS budget for the GICs and GRS is £20 something million Pa out of a £100 billion budget

    Admittedly some of the costs will be hidden in general mental health services ( where additional psychological support is beign provided), sexual health and in GP prescribing ( cross sex horomones , blockers, endocrinology tests to support these) but to suggest that Gender services are draining the NHS is a utter joke

    More money could be saved by an actual decimation ( per roman meaning) of the pointless middle managers and alleged clinical (mainly Nurses by origianl job) Leaders ... and services would be improved becasue of the lack of pointless questions beign asked distracting from the core mission.
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    (Original post by PQ)
    That would be highly unethical (and fwiw "transgenders" is not a polite way to refer to trans people - trans and transgender is a verb not a noun, the equivalent would be to refer to "blacks" or "gays" or "disableds". Especially to withhold treatment from "large numbers" of trans people considering there are very small numbers undergoing transition at any point.

    WPATH has been collating evidence and efficacy of treatment since 1979 to inform it's Standards of Care guidelines. Their entire reason for existing is to find the safest and most effective treatments for trans people. https://amo_hub_content.s3.amazonaws...ull%20Book.pdf

    Which "alternative treatment option" would you advocate?
    I'm not saying no treatment. An alternative to surgery, perhaps more therapy + family therapy. (I mean people want to remove the need for therapy before surgery , which is just ) Treatment for a possible underlying issue; maybe they are intersex, or have another mental health issue? I think some research needs to be done ultimately, to come up with alternatives to surgery. Also, side note: I think it should be noted that men who "feel like a woman" for example, might want to transition to female because feminine men aren't exactly accepted with open arms, so I guess dresses, make-up, etc. =/= make you a woman is what I'm trying to say + society should be more tolerant of effeminate men.

    I'm no doctor, I advocate nothing. I'm just saying the current system needs to be changed.

    We shouldn't be enforcing delusions and making it okay for children to think that it's okay to be trans.
    Spoiler:
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    I'm not here to be politically correct btw.
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    (Original post by Electrospective)
    I'm not saying no treatment. An alternative to surgery, perhaps more therapy + family therapy. (I mean people want to remove the need for therapy before surgery , which is just ) Treatment for a possible underlying issue; maybe they are intersex, or have another mental health issue? I think some research needs to be done ultimately, to come up with alternatives to surgery. Also, side note: I think it should be noted that men who "feel like a woman" for example, might want to transition to female because feminine men aren't exactly accepted with open arms, so I guess dresses, make-up, etc. =/= make you a woman is what I'm trying to say + society should be more tolerant of effeminate men.

    I'm no doctor, I advocate nothing. I'm just saying the current system needs to be changed.
    To be frank it sounds like you don't really understand what the current system is.
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    Don't people continue to kill themselves at astonishingly high rates afterwards?
    NO

    you also have to consider that even post transition some transpeople recieve significant abuse, discrimination and bullying / violence from the idiot faction
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    (Original post by PQ)
    To be frank it sounds like you don't really understand what the current system is.
    I don't? Just because I disagree with it, I must not know it? :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Electrospective)
    I don't? Just because I disagree with it, I must not know it? :rolleyes:
    Everything you're suggesting "as an alternative" is already part of the WPATH SOC and NHS guidelines for trans people.

    So yes it does sound like you don't understand what currently happens when you suggest the current process as "an alternative" :rolleyes:
 
 
 
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