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Guardian: 'We are Europeans. Brexit will make us face up to it' Watch

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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I think a wider global awareness and desire for cooperation has solidified which is not specifically Christian - despite, for example, the petty minded tendency of religious extremists in various parts of the world to try to turn the clock back to the middle ages, most people reject that sooner or later and want internationalism.
    I don't think that is true.

    China is not interested in being part of a global community that doesn't have China in the centre.

    The Muslims have their own legal theory that can't legitimise the social democratic state. Of course Muslims are themselves globalists - but their globalism is incompatible with Christian globalism.

    Russia looks like it is inventing a new state religion.

    Consent wasn't always part of nationalism. Most of the modern European states, including the UK, were constructed by the victor of wars. Even the US is such a country. The idea of consent is a fairly recent one.
    That is slightly tendentious. National states often evolved from non-national empires. And a European nation may well evolve from the non-national European Union empire.

    However, the cores of Britain and France are very similar linguistically, historically, and genetically. There is much more to them than historical chance. The fringes are less similar but they also have persistent nationalist movements that are not obviously fading away. There is more internal nationalism in the UK than there was in 1950.
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    (Original post by slaven)
    UK has nothing in common with continental Europe. It is not even part of the continent. The British are Anglo-Saxon and it is naturall for them to stick with their other Anglo-Saxon brethren like USA, Canada or Australia.
    From a tectonic perspective we are very much part of the continent. All the separates us is a bit of flooded land that, prior to the end of the last ice age, was not flooded.

    Whether you like it or not, the rest of Europe is very close (geographically, culturally, economically) to the UK. It is only reasonable that we maintain close relations with our nearest neighbours, rather than standing behind one of the big bullies of the world (USA). A closer partnership with Canada would be nice, but not because of ethnicity, but because they're a sane and progressive country.

    Also I feel I should remind you that the Saxons were immigrants when they first came to this island. They are not the original inhabitants and cannot really lay claim to the British Isles as their "homeland". We are, always have been and always will be an island of immigrants and mixed ethnicity.
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    We are all Earthlings :hippie:
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    He is excellent, he really sums up in a few minutes why so many remainers presumptions(including the presumption of ignorance of the other side)are wrong, and how corrupt this is and what a threat to our self-determination.
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    'Tony Benn warned that Britain was signing up for something that was undemocratic, deflationary and run in the interests of big business. “I can think of no body of men outside the Kremlin who have so much power without a shred of accountability for what they do,” Benn said.'

    'Jean Monnet, the godfather of the EU, always said that ever-closer union would be forged through crises'

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...mocratic-elite
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    I am not sure what that means.

    I will be fair and say that patriotism is natural and healthy, even nationalism by some definitions, and people really need these feelings. Germany has been denied a healthy patriotism, and although there were good reasons for doing that, Germany has now projected an ersatz patriotism onto the EU. Phil is reacting badly to "his country" being broken apart. That it never was his country in the first place doesn't seem to register with him.

    I tend to agree with you that a lot of these problems would be solved if Germany could have a healthy internal patriotism for a reasonable country like the Kaiserreich.
    In german political talk shows you can hear some thing about the EU and perceiving of nationhood that I doubt there is in other countres (except Sweden maybe). They openly say they see the EU as a solidarty union, also a union that is based of emotions.

    Than they opnely say that EU member state should have "national egoism" LOL

    The BRD government will fanatically defend the Union whatever the negative repercutions are. They already did it during the refugee crisis. Since the Schengen was in danger BRD decided to absorb them all.

    From outsider perspctive it looks like as if Germany wants torule the EU, but Germany see this as "saving EUrope". They act as Piedmont of the EU.
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    (Original post by Manitude)
    From a tectonic perspective we are very much part of the continent. All the separates us is a bit of flooded land that, prior to the end of the last ice age, was not flooded.

    Whether you like it or not, the rest of Europe is very close (geographically, culturally, economically) to the UK. It is only reasonable that we maintain close relations with our nearest neighbours, rather than standing behind one of the big bullies of the world (USA). A closer partnership with Canada would be nice, but not because of ethnicity, but because they're a sane and progressive country.

    Also I feel I should remind you that the Saxons were immigrants when they first came to this island. They are not the original inhabitants and cannot really lay claim to the British Isles as their "homeland". We are, always have been and always will be an island of immigrants and mixed ethnicity.
    I am sorry, but UK is different than the Continental Europe. You are not like us and will never be. The "biggest bully" is your child and you must have close relationship with the US.

    As for Saxons they are not immigrants but invadors who rightfully conquered their land for themself. They are the true originall British. And they do not have to share their land with muslims and African immigrants if they do not like to.
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    (Original post by slaven)
    As for Saxons they are not immigrants but invadors who rightfully conquered their land for themself. They are the true originall British. And they do not have to share their land with muslims and African immigrants if they do not like to.
    That's got to be the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard. Even if the Saxons were the most recent successful invaders (which they weren't). By your logic anyone who successfully invades a country becomes the "true" ethnicity of that country. In which case the "true" British ethnicity is Norman.

    But, by all means, don't let facts like Britons existing more than a thousand years before the Saxons invaded get in the way of your racism. The more you comment the more you expose yourself as someone who has very little understanding of ethnicity or history.
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    (Original post by Manitude)
    That's got to be the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard. Even if the Saxons were the most recent successful invaders (which they weren't). By your logic anyone who successfully invades a country becomes the "true" ethnicity of that country. In which case the "true" British ethnicity is Norman.
    I would not say that the true etnicity of the a land is that who invaded it (Hungary was invaded numerous times by the Ottomans yet it is not turkish clay), but the etnicity who managed to let it cultural marks of a land. In that sence the germanic tribes of Saxons and Angles are the true ancestors of the English nations and British national indentity. Normans did not former the English etnicity

    But, by all means, don't let facts like Britons existing more than a thousand years before the Saxons invaded get in the way of your racism. The more you comment the more you expose yourself as someone who has very little understanding of ethnicity or history.
    Actually it is not that I do not understand of history of etnicity. It is that I demonstrate with this the cultural diffence between us and Britons. For us is what etnicity matter the most (you are to much under US influence and cannot understand this). So we do not let ourself said that we are "descendant" of immigrants of our ancestral homeland.
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    (Original post by slaven)
    In german political talk shows you can hear some thing about the EU and perceiving of nationhood that I doubt there is in other countres (except Sweden maybe). They openly say they see the EU as a solidarty union, also a union that is based of emotions.

    Than they opnely say that EU member state should have "national egoism" LOL

    The BRD government will fanatically defend the Union whatever the negative repercutions are. They already did it during the refugee crisis. Since the Schengen was in danger BRD decided to absorb them all.

    From outsider perspctive it looks like as if Germany wants torule the EU, but Germany see this as "saving EUrope". They act as Piedmont of the EU.
    There are actually 11 nations in the Future Of Europe group which seems to be the most ardent proponent of federal union. If we tie in the European/National elections then the number of EU states who would probably move towards a federal union rises to 16 plus the coming batch of Balkan states who are all basket cases and probably fear Russian aggression.

    Personally i think that a German led federation is inevitable and not a bad thing per say, my bigger objection to it is Germany's disgusting attitude to non-EU immigration and a degree of a cowardice to Russia.
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    (Original post by slaven)
    So we do not let ourself said that we are "descendant" of immigrants of our ancestral homeland.
    Dear Slaven,
    You do not speak for me or the majority view of those who live in The United Kingdom. You speak only for yourself and other racists who hold the same view as you.

    That's all.
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    Teutonic Phil needs to read this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business...uro-and-the-eu

    The worst-performing eurozone countries are mired in depression or deep recession; their condition – think of Greece – is worse in many ways than what economies suffered during the Great Depression of the 1930s. The best-performing eurozone members, such as Germany, look good, but only in comparison; and their growth model is partly based on beggar-thy-neighbour policies, whereby success comes at the expense of erstwhile “partners”.

    Four types of explanation have been advanced to explain this state of affairs. Germany likes to blame the victim, pointing to Greece’s profligacy and the debt and deficits elsewhere. But this puts the cart before the horse: Spain and Ireland had surpluses and low debt-to-GDP ratios before the euro crisis. So the crisis caused the deficits and debts, not the other way around.

    Many of the countries now performing poorly were doing very well – above the European average – before the euro was introduced. Their decline did not result from some sudden change in their labour laws, or from an epidemic of laziness in the crisis countries. What changed was the currency arrangement.


    But the eurozone was a political arrangement, in which it was inevitable that Germany’s voice would be loud. Anyone who has dealt with German policymakers over the past third of a century should have known in advance the likely result. Most important, given the available tools, not even the most brilliant economic tsar could not have made the eurozone prosper.

    But the eurozone was a political arrangement, in which it was inevitable that Germany’s voice would be loud. Anyone who has dealt with German policymakers over the past third of a century should have known in advance the likely result. Most important, given the available tools, not even the most brilliant economic tsar could not have made the eurozone prosper.


    It's like he's and encapsulation of, and an advert for these people
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Teutonic Phil needs to read this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business...uro-and-the-eu

    The worst-performing eurozone countries are mired in depression or deep recession; their condition – think of Greece – is worse in many ways than what economies suffered during the Great Depression of the 1930s. The best-performing eurozone members, such as Germany, look good, but only in comparison; and their growth model is partly based on beggar-thy-neighbour policies, whereby success comes at the expense of erstwhile “partners”.

    Four types of explanation have been advanced to explain this state of affairs. Germany likes to blame the victim, pointing to Greece’s profligacy and the debt and deficits elsewhere. But this puts the cart before the horse: Spain and Ireland had surpluses and low debt-to-GDP ratios before the euro crisis. So the crisis caused the deficits and debts, not the other way around.

    Many of the countries now performing poorly were doing very well – above the European average – before the euro was introduced. Their decline did not result from some sudden change in their labour laws, or from an epidemic of laziness in the crisis countries. What changed was the currency arrangement.


    But the eurozone was a political arrangement, in which it was inevitable that Germany’s voice would be loud. Anyone who has dealt with German policymakers over the past third of a century should have known in advance the likely result. Most important, given the available tools, not even the most brilliant economic tsar could not have made the eurozone prosper.

    But the eurozone was a political arrangement, in which it was inevitable that Germany’s voice would be loud. Anyone who has dealt with German policymakers over the past third of a century should have known in advance the likely result. Most important, given the available tools, not even the most brilliant economic tsar could not have made the eurozone prosper.

    It's like he's and encapsulation of, and an advert for these people
    In fairness to Ireland it's economy was and is structurally sound, it's failure was in tying its tax system to property.

    Spain as you say had a lot of good things going for it and a strong service sector (it was the 8th largest economy in the world). Spain's problem was the one the UK has, namely that we run a continuous trade deficit which in a currency union geared towards the exporters created a big problem. I'd add that it's my view that the UK's situation were it in the Euro, would be similar to that of Spain.
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    The people here :facepalm2:
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    There are actually 11 nations in the Future Of Europe group which seems to be the most ardent proponent of federal union. If we tie in the European/National elections then the number of EU states who would probably move towards a federal union rises to 16 plus the coming batch of Balkan states who are all basket cases and probably fear Russian aggression.

    Personally i think that a German led federation is inevitable and not a bad thing per say, my bigger objection to it is Germany's disgusting attitude to non-EU immigration and a degree of a cowardice to Russia.
    Which 11 nations are this? And why would they support a federal Europe

    Actually a russo-germanian alliance was always an alternative to an Anglo-Saxon dominated world. It is just that Russia is always an ally of Germany. It is actually Merkel that was coward because the US force her to make Germany have bad relations with Germany.
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    (Original post by slaven)
    Firtly, stop with the name calling you son of a whore.
    This is called a contradiction. Your post is so offensive it is not worthy of a response.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    I don't think that is true.

    China is not interested in being part of a global community that doesn't have China in the centre.

    The Muslims have their own legal theory that can't legitimise the social democratic state. Of course Muslims are themselves globalists - but their globalism is incompatible with Christian globalism.

    Russia looks like it is inventing a new state religion.
    I don't think we know what China wants, in the sense of the democratic will of the people, since it is hidden and manipulated. We know something of what the state oligarchs who run the laughably no-longer-really-a-thing 'Communist Party' want, although that tends to flip-flop. They sometimes show signs of genuine interest in modern internationalism and at other times (as currently) revert to nationalist rhetoric and sabre rattling. This almost certainly has more to do with staying in office in the midst of economic difficulties and internal dissension than it does in some kind of 'will of the people'.

    I tend to agree about the Islamic states, they are the really recalcitrant part of the world, to use that word, when it comes to globalising - although that may not in some ways always be a bad thing for them, or their elites, it causes everyone else a lot of grief, as we are seeing.

    Russia is like China, Putin has settled on nationalism as the way to defend and justify his plutocracy. I think in the case of Russia, it probably has more legs than China because of their history and the long tradition of 'threat from the West', although of course that is also a big issue in Chinese perceptions of their history.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I don't think we know what China wants, in the sense of the democratic will of the people, since it is hidden and manipulated. We know something of what the state oligarchs who run the laughably no-longer-really-a-thing 'Communist Party' want, although that tends to flip-flop. They sometimes show signs of genuine interest in modern internationalism and at other times (as currently) revert to nationalist rhetoric and sabre rattling. This almost certainly has more to do with staying in office in the midst of economic difficulties and internal dissension than it does in some kind of 'will of the people'.

    I tend to agree about the Islamic states, they are the really recalcitrant part of the world, to use that word, when it comes to globalising - although that may not in some ways always be a bad thing for them, or their elites, it causes everyone else a lot of grief, as we are seeing.

    Russia is like China, Putin has settled on nationalism as the way to defend and justify his plutocracy. I think in the case of Russia, it probably has more legs than China because of their history and the long tradition of 'threat from the West', although of course that is also a big issue in Chinese perceptions of their history.
    What you call "globalism" is Anglo-American world conquest.
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    http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2015/0...ment-of-greece

    You should read this. Yet more evidence how the EU is nothing to do with progressivism and all to do with cynicism.
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    i voted brexit and am anti eu doesn't mean i am not proudly European the eu controls Europe that needs to change ,
 
 
 
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