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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    You said that no one hates Muslims
    Straw Man #127.
    Of course there are people who "hate Muslims", but the point is, why? If an under-educated right-winger hates Muslims because he sees them as "brown foreigners overrunning his country", then he is a racist xenophobe. He is hating them for being a different race and culture, not because of the religious ideology that they follow.

    Obviously, there will be some who have an issue with individual Muslims because they support slavery, wife-beating, homophobia, misogyny, etc, but if that is the case, their dislike is arguably justified. If an educated, white Briton held those views, I would not like him as a person, so why must I have a different attitude to someone simply because they are a Muslim? It is another example of the soft racism of low expectations (many people conflating Muslims with "brown foreigners", just as you did).

    and you make up some excuse about how its racial discrimination, its quite clearly, set in stone, religious discrimination
    So, when someone shouts "[email protected] go home" to a 2nd generation British, Bangladeshi Muslim, it is "set in stone" religious, rather than racial hatred?
    Year, right.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Straw Man #127.
    Of course there are people who "hate Muslims", but the point is, why? If an under-educated right-winger hates Muslims because he sees them as "brown foreigners overrunning his country", then he is a racist xenophobe. He is hating them for being a different race and culture, not because of the religious ideology that they follow.

    Obviously, there will be some who have an issue with individual Muslims because they support slavery, wife-beating, homophobia, misogyny, etc, but if that is the case, their dislike is arguably justified. If an educated, white Briton held those views, I would not like him as a person, so why must I have a different attitude to someone simply because they are a Muslim? It is another example of the soft racism of low expectations (many people conflating Muslims with "brown foreigners", just as you did).

    So, when someone shouts "[email protected] go home" to a 2nd generation British, Bangladeshi Muslim, it is "set in stone" religious, rather than racial hatred?
    Year, right.
    I provided you with clear evidence that people hate Muslims out there, you still continue to pretend its actually a racial problem :facepalm:

    welcome back to my ignore list, you won't be casually removed next time
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    I provided you with clear evidence that people hate Muslims out there, you still continue to pretend its actually a racial problem :facepalm:

    welcome back to my ignore list, you won't be casually removed next time
    Regardless, I will continue to dismantle your fallcious, naive and ill-informed posts, as and when you make them.
    Not least because I enjoy doing it.
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    (Original post by AH127)
    the fact is that if a muslim wants to integrate with countries like England and the USA, they simply can't follow their religion as it was originally intended to be: a belief system for conquering and waging war on all non-muslims.
    a fair assessment

    7th century Islam was a war-like, conquering religion/Empire, which - starting out from Arabia - attacked and then conquered North Africa, Spain, Sicily, Southern France, the Middle East, Persia etc etc (allegedly always defending itself against "aggressors" and freeing peoples from "oppression"). It allowed crucifixions, amputations of hands and feet on opposite sides, execution of war prisoners, slavery, sex with female slaves, discrimination of nonMuslims, homosexuals, women etc etc

    all of these practices are not allowed now in our societies, and quite rightly so. In fact, most Muslims, whether explicitly or implicitly, do recognise this

    so, what exactly is 21st century Islam ? what role can it play in our Western societies ? as you say, to what extent can it be "integrated" ? do in fact the majority of Muslims wish to be "integrated", and to what extent ?

    the obvious answer : we don't know

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    (Original post by QE2)
    the soft racism of low expectations .
    an excellent expression

    we should hold Muslims to the same standards as all other people, and no excuses should be made for their actions such as "it's the fault of US policies" "they are just reacting to Islamophobia" "how can we criticise them while we are supporting Israel" etc etc

    we owe it to Muslims to treat them just like everyone else : no excuses, same standards

    eliminate discrimination, where it exists : the negative one, but also the positive one

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    (Original post by mariachi)
    an excellent expression

    we should hold Muslims to the same standards as all other people, and no excuses should be made for their actions such as "it's the fault of US policies" "they are just reacting to Islamophobia" "how can we criticise them while we are supporting Israel" etc etc

    we owe it to Muslims to treat them just like everyone else : no excuses, same standards

    eliminate discrimination, where it exists : the negative one, but also the positive one

    best
    And among "treating Muslims like everyone else" should be zero tolerance of bigotry against them, instead of the meek "meh, I can understand why some people are bigoted/lashing out even though I personally don't agree", surely? I have rarely seen a form of bigotry that is so tolerated because "my enemy's enemy is my friend".
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    I am done. I am not going to argue with someone so blatantly lying:

    1) It is irrelevant? You were the one who said something like "we must consider the time he was in, while not perfect, for his time he was better than the alternative". Given he is eternally the example, that is a completely wrong statement to make. And now you are saying it's irrelevant that he is the eternal example?
    It is irrelevant because because I never made the claim that he is "eternally the example", which is open to interpretation itself. I simply dismissed your Nazi comparison as a fallacious false analogy.

    Your arguments are just as logically flawed and biased as alevelstresss'
    Says the fool who compared Muslims to Nazis. You must have a hard time navigating daily life with all these Nazi-esque Muslamics walking around!
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    (Original post by WBZ144)
    And among "treating Muslims like everyone else" should be zero tolerance of bigotry against them, instead of the meek "meh, I can understand why some people are bigoted/lashing out", surely? I have rarely seen a form of bigotry that is so tolerated because "my enemy's enemy is my friend".
    Just because you say someone or something is bigoted, doesn't make it so.

    I find this whole "bigot" debate funny anyway. I hope some other German might have some input, but as far as I know, we do not even have a word for bigot. The ones you get on translation sites are not it. Moreover, we don't spam it or something like it around like an insult, like an accusation, like a dismissal.

    In addition, let me quote you my favorite quote on this issue by a very insightful man, Karl Popper:

    "Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them"

    Islam is an incredibly intolerant ideology. There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning it. Let me ask you something else as well. Are you for LGBT rights? How do you view someone who is against? How about someone who is openly against it? You are black if your pic is you. How about someone openly saying I think blacks are inferior. It's an opinion. Does it not make you a bigot for not tolerating that persons opinion? Or are you going to pretend in order to win this argument that it doesn't bother you if someone says that in public about blacks?
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    (Original post by WBZ144)
    And among "treating Muslims like everyone else" should be zero tolerance of bigotry against them, instead of the meek "meh, I can understand why some people are bigoted/lashing out", surely? I have rarely seen a form of bigotry that is so tolerated because "my enemy's enemy is my friend".
    we have laws which deal with hate speech, racial discrimination etc and these laws are designed for everyone. Muslims are not a special case

    these laws cannot of course always prevent cases from happening, as with any offense. No need for bombastic "zero tolerance" declarations

    however, it should be clear on the other hand that pointing out that some practices and interpretations of Islam are incompatible with our societies, and criticising Islam's political/social agenda is perfectly legitimate, and does not constitute in any way hate speech

    just like it is perfectly legitimate to oppose/criticise/attack(verbally) Scientology, Communism, Liberalism etc etc

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    (Original post by Dima-Blackburn)
    It is irrelevant because because I never made the claim that he is "eternally the example", which is open to interpretation itself. I simply dismissed your Nazi comparison as a fallacious false analogy.



    Says the fool who compared Muslims to Nazis. You must have a hard time navigating daily life with all these Nazi-esque Muslamics walking around!
    I compared Mohammed to Hitler, not Muslims to Nazis.

    But well done for either failing to see the argument, or purposefully putting words in my mouth that I haven't said.

    Class act you are. And rather ironic calling someone else a fool.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    we have laws which deal with hate speech, racial discrimination etc and these laws are designed for everyone. Muslims are not a special case

    these laws cannot of course always prevent cases from happening, as with any offense. No need for bombastic "zero tolerance" declarations

    however, it should be clear on the other hand that pointing out that some practices and interpretations of Islam are incompatible with our societies, and criticising Islam's political/social agenda is perfectly legitimate, and does not constitute in any way hate speech

    just like it is perfectly legitimate to oppose/criticise/attack(verbally) Scientology, Communism, Liberalism etc etc

    best
    That wasn't my point. My point is that tolerating the casual bigotry showing up in these conversations and many others to do with Islam (such as comparing Muslims to Nazis, rationalising bigotry against them with "I can understand the backlash because they do such and such") and so forth are irresponsible and probably would not have been tolerated if it were any other group. So that should also apply to treating Muslims like everyone else.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Just because you say someone or something is bigoted, doesn't make it so.

    I find this whole "bigot" debate funny anyway. I hope some other German might have some input, but as far as I know, we do not even have a word for bigot. The ones you get on translation sites are not it. Moreover, we don't spam it or something like it around like an insult, like an accusation, like a dismissal.

    In addition, let me quote you my favorite quote on this issue by a very insightful man, Karl Popper:

    "Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them"

    Islam is an incredibly intolerant ideology. There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning it. Let me ask you something else as well. Are you for LGBT rights? How do you view someone who is against? How about someone who is openly against it? You are black if your pic is you. How about someone openly saying I think blacks are inferior. It's an opinion. Does it not make you a bigot for not tolerating that persons opinion? Or are you going to pretend in order to win this argument that it doesn't bother you if someone says that in public about blacks?
    What has any of that got to do with anti-Muslim bigotry?

    Justifying it by saying "well Islam teaches such and such" only proves my point further. And it goes to show that you are one of those people who cannot differentiate between criticising Islam and anti-Muslim bigotry because yes, they exist on both sides.
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    (Original post by WBZ144)
    That wasn't my point. My point is that tolerating the casual bigotry showing up in these conversations and many others to do with Islam (such as comparing Muslims to Nazis, rationalising bigotry against them with "I can understand the backlash because they do such and such" and so forth are irresponsible and probably would not have been tolerated if it were any other group. So that should also apply to treating Muslims like everyone else.
    Ironic that you are oh so against this and yet you have no trouble believing and spreading a lie written by another poster to make someone on the other end of the argument to them look bad.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Islam is an incredibly intolerant ideology. There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning it.
    this is perfectly true, and we should not lie about this. We owe our Muslim friends and co-citizens to be sincere about this, and not to entertain false hopes in them

    there is of course a brand of Islam which is acceptable (so-called modernist, or reformist, or moderate etc) Islam, but its followers are a minority, and widely considered as being sellouts, coconuts, kuffar-lovers etc etc

    luckily, most Muslims are not into deep theological debates and simply want to get on with their lives : however, this is not a reason why we should indulge in hypocrisy, lies, double-speak

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    (Original post by WBZ144)
    What has any of that got to do with anti-Muslim bigotry?

    Justifying it by saying "well Islam teaches such and such" only proves my point further. And it goes to show that you are one of those people who cannot differentiate between criticising Islam and anti-Muslim bigotry because yes, they exist on both sides.
    Do you even know what bigotry means?It means being intolerant of someone else because of the opinions they hold. This has everything to with it, because evidently you don't even know what the word means.

    As I said in my previous post, in Germany we do not throw it around like an insult as you just did. Like a dismissal, "oh he said something against Islam, must be a bigot, what an *******s".

    Don't like what someone else has to say - call him a bigot.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Ironic that you are oh so against this and yet you have no trouble believing and spreading a lie written by another poster to make someone on the other end of the argument to them look bad.
    What lie?
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Do you even know what bigotry means?It means being intolerant of someone else because of the opinions they hold. This has everything to with it, because evidently you don't even know what the word means.

    As I said in my previous post, in Germany we do not throw it around like an insult as you just did. Like a dismissal, "oh he said something against Islam, must be a bigot, what an *******s".

    Don't like what someone else has to say - call him a bigot.
    Anti-Muslim bigotry is about having something against Muslims as people, not against the religious teachings. Don't play naive.
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    (Original post by WBZ144)
    What lie?
    I compared Mo to Hitler. Not Muslims to Nazis. There is an important difference and that other poster knows it, which is why they misrepresented what I said in this fashion.
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    (Original post by WBZ144)
    Anti-Muslim bigotry is about having something against Muslims as people, not against the religious teachings. Don't play naive.
    Yes.

    You are right.

    But I don't have anything against Muslims. I have something however against the ideology that they follow.

    In addition, would you please go back to my previous post regarding anti-gay and anti-blacks? I would very much like to hear your opinion on those examples.

    Edit: that difference I talked about, this is it. And you are right, that would make me a bigot.
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    (Original post by WBZ144)
    That wasn't my point. My point is that tolerating the casual bigotry showing up in these conversations and many others to do with Islam (such as comparing Muslims to Nazis, rationalising bigotry against them with "I can understand the backlash because they do such and such") and so forth are irresponsible and probably would not have been tolerated if it were any other group. So that should also apply to treating Muslims like everyone else.
    this is the internet. People will get away with most anything online

    just go on youtube, ummah.com, stormfront, whatever, and you will find people openly advocating massacres of kuffar, non-kuffar, aryans, non-aryans, blondes and brunettes

    if you notice people advocating violence on TSR, report them . In my experience, this is usually dealt with effectively

    on the other hand while advocating violence is a clear concept, bigotry is fuzzy and unpractical . I have never seen a law defining or punishing bigotry

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