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    (Original post by DanB1991)
    Well at 11 nothing rally matters because sets don't become a thing until year 8/9.

    When I was at school Exams or SATS in year 9 could make or break you GCSE potential which is in reality no different. My comp couldn't find my Sats results and because I was from a poor income area decided to guess my ability level. Sets were decided directly on SATS results, albeit they are optional now. As a result many of my grades were capped for the first 6 months which directly led to poorer than expected results, seeing in some cases I simply couldn't make up the grades to get higher than C's or B's, despite getting full marks in my capped exams.
    Sets don't determine anything, as long as you are entered for the right tier at GCSE you can achieve anything with pure hard work at home.

    I was targeted Cs and Bs at GCSE (from SATs) and was never in a top set. Yet I got 1A*, 5As and 5Bs.

    What do you mean 'capped exams'?
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    (Original post by Maker)
    Are you trying to ironic or just don't understand how things work in the real world.
    That makes no sense at all. Did you mean "are you trying to be ironic".

    If grammar schools were to be permitted, who is going to create the policies for them to come into existence, who will do the local parent consultations, who will do the change management from single tier to a 2 tier education system across the entire England and Wales? How much would it cost to administer the entry tests and handle the appeals?
    There is a two-tier even a three-tier system in places across the country. Do you even know what that is?

    You are acting like every school will be turned into a grammar school. That's not true. It won't cost much because it's not going to be a large scale.

    And that is just the stuff off the top of my head. Its going t costs hundreds of millions to create new grammar and secondary modern schools.
    I'm a Tory myself and I see nothing wrong with spending extra on education. It's the future workforce. And again, you are exaggerating the scale of it.

    Its going to be disruptive because kids who would have gone to their nearest school could find they can't because its become a grammar and they didn't get in and have to travel to a school further away so the local council has to pay fro their transport.
    Kids have to travel to go to school now currently. Many don't get into their first choice, even second. So most end up travelling anyway.

    The council doesn't pay for their transport...

    Come back to me with some good arguments and I will sacrifice my time. Im going to bed now.
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    I support the principle of enabling social liquidity, but I don't like the prospect of dividing children into social strata from such an early age (Year 6).
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    (Original post by jamestg)
    What do you mean 'capped exams'?
    I think he means Foundation Tier, which are capped at a C maximum.
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    (Original post by jamestg)
    Sets don't determine anything, as long as you are entered for the right tier at GCSE you can achieve anything with pure hard work at home.

    I was targeted Cs and Bs at GCSE (from SATs) and was never in a top set. Yet I got 1A*, 5As and 5Bs.

    What do you mean 'capped exams'?
    Sorry apparently the correct term is foundation tier? It's been a while :lol: So for example in my first science exam I got 98% but only came out with a C due to being placed in the Foundation tier.

    When my sets were finally semi corrected, it turned out the highest I could get in some subjects was B's or C's in some cases due to having already taking foundation papers or lack of spaces in higher sets. I was extremely annoyed seeing I'd been saying for 6 months I should of been doing the Higher tier papers. All I ever got was a 'sorry we didn't realise your ability'.

    In hindsight I could of pushed it, but I took my teachers word for it and my parents hardly knew how it worked. Some teachers refused to let me do the higher tier as a lot of the content required for the higher tier exams was not taught in their class and there were no spaces in the higher sets. I then had my ICT exam which was a cluster ****.... I can't even remember the reason why, but after two years of being told if I could work had I could get an A but complaining that being taught how to use powerpoint for two years wasn't really preparing me, I found out post exam it was capped at an D due to something to do with coursework and the fact I had been entered for the foundation tier.

    (Original post by Abstract_Prism)
    I support the principle of enabling social liquidity, but I don't like the prospect of dividing children into social strata from such an early age (Year 6).
    Under the old grammar system could individuals change from secondary to grammar if their grades suggested they should be moved?
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    (Original post by DanB1991)
    Under the old grammar system could individuals change from secondary to grammar if their grades suggested they should be moved?
    Maybe, Idk. But I wonder if they would actually be encouraged to work harder to get into a grammar school, or if they would just settle with mediocrity since they've already been told they're not good enough and separated from those who are 'good enough' at such a young age (Year 6).
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    (Original post by Maker)
    I managed to increase my IQ test by 5 points between my first trial test and my actual Mensa test and thats just one my own without any tutors.
    Five points isn't very much, and can very well just be sampling noise.

    Academics have been arguing about the value of IQ and similar tests for decades and whether test results can be a function of training and have not reached a settled conclusion so I very much doubt you have access to definitive information about this that the wider academic community has not so spare me your uninformed opinion.
    No, left-ideologues are horrified and frightened by the implications of intelligence research, and research into heritability of mental traits more generally, because it blows their ideology out of the water. Many left-ideologues work in academia, and they have been blowing smoke rings trying to avoid people noticing or drawing conclusions from this research.

    If the left were right about the extreme malleability of intelligence we wouldn't even be having these discussions. The socialist reforms since 1945 already undertaken would have observably enormously boosted everyone's intelligence and the comprehensive school programme would have achieved its stated objectives of providing education of nearly equal, and high, quality to everyone. We are having these discussions because none of that has happened and everyone knows it. For some reason reality completely failing to conform to socialism's predictions doesn't diminish faith in socialism in the slightest.
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    (Original post by dairychocolate)
    Quote from Theresa May:



    She wants to re-allow the opening of new grammar schools and the awarding of selective school status to existing schools.
    There is no need to open new schools, just convert existing ones into grammars.
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    (Original post by MrMackyTv)
    That makes no sense at all. Did you mean "are you trying to be ironic".



    There is a two-tier even a three-tier system in places across the country. Do you even know what that is?

    You are acting like every school will be turned into a grammar school. That's not true. It won't cost much because it's not going to be a large scale.



    I'm a Tory myself and I see nothing wrong with spending extra on education. It's the future workforce. And again, you are exaggerating the scale of it.



    Kids have to travel to go to school now currently. Many don't get into their first choice, even second. So most end up travelling anyway.

    The council doesn't pay for their transport...

    Come back to me with some good arguments and I will sacrifice my time. Im going to bed now.
    Let say all the comprehensive schools in a locality wants to be the grammar and none of them wants to be secondary moderns, who gets to decide which is which?

    If one school is selected to be the grammar, and the other schools object and sppeal and go to court, how much would that cost the government to fight that in court? And that is just one locaility. Multiply that by hundreds of areas and you get the idea just this one small part of the grammar school plan is going to cost millions.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Five points isn't very much, and can very well just be sampling noise.


    No, left-ideologues are horrified and frightened by the implications of intelligence research, and research into heritability of mental traits more generally, because it blows their ideology out of the water. Many left-ideologues work in academia, and they have been blowing smoke rings trying to avoid people noticing or drawing conclusions from this research.

    If the left were right about the extreme malleability of intelligence we wouldn't even be having these discussions. The socialist reforms since 1945 already undertaken would have observably enormously boosted everyone's intelligence and the comprehensive school programme would have achieved its stated objectives of providing education of nearly equal, and high, quality to everyone. We are having these discussions because none of that has happened and everyone knows it. For some reason reality completely failing to conform to socialism's predictions doesn't diminish faith in socialism in the slightest.
    So you can tell kids the reason they didn't get into a grammar was statistical noise.

    Man, you have no evidence for your claims so resort to anti left propaganda. Not very persuasive is it?
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    (Original post by Maker)
    So you can tell kids the reason they didn't get into a grammar was statistical noise.
    OK, but only if you tell them that's why they didn't get As in their A levels.

    Man, you have no evidence for your claims so resort to anti left propaganda. Not very persuasive is it?
    What claim do you want evidence of?
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    No, left-ideologues are horrified and frightened by the implications of intelligence research, and research into heritability of mental traits more generally, because it blows their ideology out of the water.
    Observatory: we have already discussed this so please try to pay attention and avoid generalising. For a clever person you do seem to have a very short-term memory.

    IQ research only upsets social justice liberals as you would find in universities in the US and the UK. That is only a fraction of the left's ideological positions. People like me who are pro-science are fully behind human biodiversity research. In fact the whole area is a massive support to Marxist-Leninist, Stalinist, Maoist thinking, etc. Now try to remember this because I won't tell you again.
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    (Original post by Orbital_Rising)
    Observatory: we have already discussed this so please try to pay attention and avoid generalising. For a clever person you do seem to have a very short-term memory.

    IQ research only upsets social justice liberals as you would find in universities in the US and the UK. That is only a fraction of the left's ideological positions. People like me who are pro-science are fully behind human biodiversity research. In fact the whole area is a massive support to Marxist-Leninist, Stalinist, Maoist thinking, etc. Now try to remember this because I won't tell you again.
    It upsets people who matter.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    It upsets people who matter.
    It upsets people who wouldn't kill you. I understand that matters to you.

    But you have to remember the world is bigger than your circle. Just because you can't see us doesn't mean we're not there.
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    (Original post by Orbital_Rising)
    It upsets people who wouldn't kill you. I understand that matters to you.

    But you have to remember the world is bigger than your circle. Just because you can't see us doesn't mean we're not there.
    Best of luck with your imaginary assassin friends.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Best of luck with your imaginary assassin friends.
    That was not a threat just a reminder. Your worldview is clearly confined to first world democracies in a perpetuating cycle of liberal and conservative policies. Imagining anybody to operate outside of that mechanism to be irrelevant or as having no power , e.g. people in 2nd-3rd world countries is a useful safety mechanism.

    Ironically for a right winger, you are in a safe space.
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    I fully support the expansion of the grammar school system especially in light of some of the detail in May's plans.

    Although some argue that the middle classes are the statistical beneficiaries of the grammar system it's important to note that even in the comprehensive system their wealth gives them an advantage (both direct and indirectly) because they can afford private tuition or have inspirational adults as role models. What the grammar school system can do however (provided we obligate a sufficient number must come from poor backgrounds) is free those bright but poor children from the lack of ambition that perpetuates the comprehensive system, a world in which the herd reaches a C and from there it's down to luck that you have a teacher who cares enough to push you beyond that.

    The failure in the old system was primarily in the technical schools teaching non-academic subjects for the say third of people who may miss out on grammar schools but not wish to be a mechanic, current comprehensive schools mean that this failure no longer exists (if anything it's the people who need to be taught more vocational skills who are being failed).
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    good idea, the more grammars we have will mean that more poorer students will have a better education.
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    I think a lot of posters on this thread would not get into grammars judging by their intellectual powers or lack of.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    Let say all the comprehensive schools in a locality wants to be the grammar and none of them wants to be secondary moderns, who gets to decide which is which?
    The council will. And the policy again clearly states that they will be considering where they place these grammar schools. It won't be random. You are missing the point again.

    If one school is selected to be the grammar, and the other schools object and sppeal and go to court, how much would that cost the government to fight that in court? And that is just one locaility. Multiply that by hundreds of areas and you get the idea just this one small part of the grammar school plan is going to cost millions.
    I am gonna stop talking to you.

    You have not explained why you don't want grammars to be unbanned. It will help the poor who are smart enough and it will free up class space in comprehensive schools. Creating schools already cost millions. In fact, with the current academy system executives are paid a lot of money, so many schools are not properly funded. We got more important issues than a few grammar schools costing money...
 
 
 
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