Struggling with homophobia in the church.

Well ok leaving aside the fact that genesis is fiction..... Don't you think that that command had a lot more relevance when the population was in the hundreds of thousands.We are pretty rapidly approaching 9 billion and over half the wealth on this planet is owned by 1% of people.The very last thing we need is more procreation.There are plenty of kids who would love someone to adopt them.

Well...the Genesis is fiction thing...well...sad you feel that way. It's an interesting book. Nope, I don't think so. You see we Christians we don't look at what we do on earth as just for earth or the present. In procreation we are also populating God's Family...Heaven (that's if our children also become Christians). But I guess maybe you don't believe in heaven because you think Genesis is fiction...you would probably take my answer as fiction as well Lol! xD. But that's my two cents
And of course people who want to adopt children who don't have parents to provide for them should do so! Makes the world a better place! xD And if it isn't possibe for you to adopt at least help out in getting an orphan educated and properly taken care of. I definitely plan on doing that when I'm old enough and start receiving income. Jesus did command us to help those who are less fortunate. And no, not every family would do this but as Christians we are supposed to help anyone in need whether it be the homeless, poor or sick. Adoption is one way of helping and doing our part.

Biblical backup:

Luke 3:10-11
And the crowds asked him, “What then shall we do?” And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”

James 2:14-17 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

You don't need to believe in God to want to make the world a better place.And as genesis says that God made man out of dust or is it clay? That is fiction.It is a fact that humans came to be through a long period of evolution.Even the pope does not deny this.

But thats off the original point.The point is that just because gay people don't reproduce doesnt mean they are wrong.How do you know God doesn't have a plan for them? If anything it makes sense that God would create gay people so that they can look after all those unwanted children up for adoption.That way straight people can still have kids and so can gay people.The bible says a lot of contradictory things.Christians just ignore certain bits.For example all that stuff about not getting divorced,no one has a problem with that any more.Or perhaps you should read to the pope that bit about not storing up treasures on earth.Pretty sure a palace counts as treasures upon earth.

Well...if you feel that way, I guess you'd have to go with what you feel is right. I think our sexuality is a choice. Since God gave us free will to do what he wants or do what we want. At the end of the day you have to choose what you can live with xD

As for the skepticism towards the website...you can check out the references below to check if their science is correct. I am indifferent towards gay conversion therapy, so I have no comment on that.

Mormons claim to be Christians...followers of Jesus. I haven't studied their denomination to come to a conclusion to differ. So I can't comment on that.

Okay... the doctor could've said you may have PCOS but you are infertile and need to have treatments and see if that works.
I have two that were definitely diagnosed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIoKAWDtVyk

I would support a ban on same sex marriage because there is no way possible for them to procreate naturally...also it isn't something natural...in my opinion. As for the people who don't want children....it can accidentally happen? xD There is still a chance they may change their mind? There is still a chance...period?

So I go to a pretty liberal, happy clappy pentecostal church which i LOVE. The atmosphere is always so unbelievably positive and accepting and loving so I really thought that I'd found my people and my church going there...until this morning.

We had a guest preacher (turns out he used to be the pastor there like 10 years ago but I've not been there that long) and he was talking about the second coming of Christ. He was saying about how the world is getting worse and ungodly so it will be soon, and this was due to terrorism and war etc. Then he started talking about the loss of family values and sexual immorality. He never outrightly said homosexuality or being gay but it was SO clear what he was talking about.

I wasn't happy but understood why he might feel this way, he backed up this with scripture and I won't disagree with God's word but then he started going off on some of the most ignorant things I've ever heard. He kept saying "now young people, listen to this" and then genuinely was suggesting that being gay lead to disease (AIDs), taking drugs and turning evil. I actually couldn't believe what I was hearing and how my lovely, accepting church was allowing him to say these things. It felt like he totally went off reading scripture and was just on a tangent about his own hateful opinions.

I'm now feeling very torn about whether this church is the right one for me. I believe that God loves us all and as long as we believe and follow the path of Jesus then we will be saved. And I definitely think you can be gay and follow Jesus. I think what has upset me the most is the fact that I've always seen my church as so accepting, I used to go to a really conservative catholic church and nothing this hateful was ever said there so it completely shocked me to come from my current church.

I don't know whether this is something I have to accept and just continue in my church because apart from today I have loved it. Or do I need to find a new church?

(I'm sorry this is long, I just needed to get it all out of my system)

I think I like the idea of coming from dust much more than from a monkey LOL xD My thing is if evolution really took place why aren't monkeys still going through evolution?(generic question i know xD)
I know various animals change their physiological functions and structure to survive right now. Like different species of moths and so on. If that is the case with other animals how come the monkey hasn't been able to evolve into a human being in the last hundreds or thousands of years?
I know that some David guy said that evolution has stopped because of humans or monkeys...being able to " stop their natural selection of their own free will". If that is so don't you think that homosexuals have the free will to choose their sexuality?

I don't think the bible has contradictions. I think the bible is quite clear. Very poetic and well written. Well I have been studying it since I was little so I guess I've looked through things so many times its just clear to me. xD

There are grounds for divorce though, in the bible.
Matthew 5:32; Matthew 19:9 also 1 Corinthians 7:15

1) Adultery
2) If a non-Christian husband/wife wants to leave their spouse, Paul says let them separate themselves.


What is wrong with the Pope living in a palace? xD (I hear this a lot!!)
Although I am not Catholic, I must say although the Catholic church has got a bad reputation for various things they did some pretty commendable stuff as well. I must commend them on how much they have invested in the education system of many 3rd world countries. Regions and countries such as the Caribbean, the Philippines, India and many others.

And I don't think anything is wrong in being wealthy...I mean the more wealthy you are the more you can give away and help people, don't you think? I know, not every wealthy person does that. xD

I'm guessing you're talking about this scripture?

Matthew 13:44-46
19 Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

God doesn't want us to put material things above him. So that is what the verse is explaining. But then in Luke it further explains that God wants us to seek Him first and he will give us the desires of our hearts.
I'll give an example of where this is applicable. Just a couple of days ago Hurricane Matthew devastated Haiti. Over a thousand people died because they refused to leave what little possessions they had behind because they were afraid someone would steal it. Instead of going to safe ground they chose to risk dying for possessions.
This is what the bible is saying...do not put your possessions above your trust in God.

Luke 12: 25-34
25Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air: They do not sow or reap or gather into barns—and yet your Heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his lifespan?
28And why do you worry about clothes? Consider how the lilies of the field grow: They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his glory was adorned like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?31Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32For the pagans pursue all these things, and your Heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Today has enough trouble of its own.

In Luke you can see Jesus saying don't worry about where you would get what you need to survive. You've done your bit, let me do mine. Once you obey me and trust me I will give you everything you need and more.

2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

Jesus exchanged places so that we might be rich. That doesn't mean just rich in material things, it means rich in every area and aspect of our lives; rich in his love, happiness, mercy, forgiveness, and peace. Its like a piece of heaven here on earth. xD

Yes in the bible it says to give to the poor. When you give to the others, God blesses you in return. Think of God as this super rich Father who loves you sooooo much. xD He has an inheritance for you and wants to bless you with it. He wants you to be generous to others, give to others and obey him so that he can bless you with a gift or two. Think of it as a lock and a key principle.


As for the orphans and homosexuals comment...then why say homosexuality is a sin then? And then give the command that we are to procreate? You would probably say"because the bible contradicts itself"....but just consider that it doesn't... look at the other side...maybe? I have.... and I don't know why I would want two fathers or two mothers...I think men and women are very different and its better to give an orphan the best of two different worlds as possible. xD I know the argument would be "at least they have parents" But why not give them the absolute best of different worlds...? Enlighten me...? xD

I have so many questions... Would you say rules of morality and ethics make the world a better place? Where does morality come from? Is there any ancient document (let's say 5000 years and older for an example) that defines morality and ethics and doesn't claim there is a higher power that gives the rules to morality and ethics? If there is any...link them to me I'd like to read of it.

ohhhh I have one more question..well... maybe more than one xD

I normally ask my agnostic/ atheist friends this question and they never seem to have a full answer... What would you do if everything in the Bible, (God, Jesus, Heaven, Hell, Sins?) were real and true? I have considered what I would do if it were false and I think I wouldn't lose out because HEY, I'll just be 6 feet under RIGHT?? LOL! And I'd feel like I lived my life still. But what if it IS real what would go through your mind? Wouldn't you feel like you lost out on something cool and amazing?

I genuinely look forward to your answers or anyone else willing to answer them, I like to hear the others perspectives on life xD


(Sorry for the extremely long ramble I got a bit too excited and carried away xD)

I think I like the idea of coming from dust much more than from a monkey LOL xD My thing is if evolution really took place why aren't monkeys still going through evolution?(generic question i know xD)
I know various animals change their physiological functions and structure to survive right now. Like different species of moths and so on. If that is the case with other animals how come the monkey hasn't been able to evolve into a human being in the last hundreds or thousands of years?
I know that some David guy said that evolution has stopped because of humans or monkeys...being able to " stop their natural selection of their own free will". If that is so don't you think that homosexuals have the free will to choose their sexuality?

I don't think the bible has contradictions. I think the bible is quite clear. Very poetic and well written. Well I have been studying it since I was little so I guess I've looked through things so many times its just clear to me. xD

There are grounds for divorce though, in the bible.
Matthew 5:32; Matthew 19:9 also 1 Corinthians 7:15

1) Adultery
2) If a non-Christian husband/wife wants to leave their spouse, Paul says let them separate themselves.


What is wrong with the Pope living in a palace? xD (I hear this a lot!!)
Although I am not Catholic, I must say although the Catholic church has got a bad reputation for various things they did some pretty commendable stuff as well. I must commend them on how much they have invested in the education system of many 3rd world countries. Regions and countries such as the Caribbean, the Philippines, India and many others.

And I don't think anything is wrong in being wealthy...I mean the more wealthy you are the more you can give away and help people, don't you think? I know, not every wealthy person does that. xD

I'm guessing you're talking about this scripture?

Matthew 13:44-46
19 Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

God doesn't want us to put material things above him. So that is what the verse is explaining. But then in Luke it further explains that God wants us to seek Him first and he will give us the desires of our hearts.
I'll give an example of where this is applicable. Just a couple of days ago Hurricane Matthew devastated Haiti. Over a thousand people died because they refused to leave what little possessions they had behind because they were afraid someone would steal it. Instead of going to safe ground they chose to risk dying for possessions.
This is what the bible is saying...do not put your possessions above your trust in God.

Luke 12: 25-34
25Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air: They do not sow or reap or gather into barns—and yet your Heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his lifespan?
28And why do you worry about clothes? Consider how the lilies of the field grow: They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his glory was adorned like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?31Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32For the pagans pursue all these things, and your Heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Today has enough trouble of its own.

In Luke you can see Jesus saying don't worry about where you would get what you need to survive. You've done your bit, let me do mine. Once you obey me and trust me I will give you everything you need and more.

2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

Jesus exchanged places so that we might be rich. That doesn't mean just rich in material things, it means rich in every area and aspect of our lives; rich in his love, happiness, mercy, forgiveness, and peace. Its like a piece of heaven here on earth. xD

Yes in the bible it says to give to the poor. When you give to the others, God blesses you in return. Think of God as this super rich Father who loves you sooooo much. xD He has an inheritance for you and wants to bless you with it. He wants you to be generous to others, give to others and obey him so that he can bless you with a gift or two. Think of it as a lock and a key principle.


As for the orphans and homosexuals comment...then why say homosexuality is a sin then? And then give the command that we are to procreate? You would probably say"because the bible contradicts itself"....but just consider that it doesn't... look at the other side...maybe? I have.... and I don't know why I would want two fathers or two mothers...I think men and women are very different and its better to give an orphan the best of two different worlds as possible. xD I know the argument would be "at least they have parents" But why not give them the absolute best of different worlds...? Enlighten me...? xD

I have so many questions... Would you say rules of morality and ethics make the world a better place? Where does morality come from? Is there any ancient document (let's say 5000 years and older for an example) that defines morality and ethics and doesn't claim there is a higher power that gives the rules to morality and ethics? If there is any...link them to me I'd like to read of it.

ohhhh I have one more question..well... maybe more than one xD

I normally ask my agnostic/ atheist friends this question and they never seem to have a full answer... What would you do if everything in the Bible, (God, Jesus, Heaven, Hell, Sins?) were real and true? I have considered what I would do if it were false and I think I wouldn't lose out because HEY, I'll just be 6 feet under RIGHT?? LOL! And I'd feel like I lived my life still. But what if it IS real what would go through your mind? Wouldn't you feel like you lost out on something cool and amazing?

I genuinely look forward to your answers or anyone else willing to answer them, I like to hear the others perspectives on life xD


(Sorry for the extremely long ramble I got a bit too excited and carried away xD)

The bible. And...no... I am not going to have a debate as to whether the bible is true or not. (just in case it popped up in your mind xD ...because my mind would not change and yours probably wouldn't either lol!).

I think I like the idea of coming from dust much more than from a monkey LOL xD My thing is if evolution really took place why aren't monkeys still going through evolution?(generic question i know xD)
I know various animals change their physiological functions and structure to survive right now. Like different species of moths and so on. If that is the case with other animals how come the monkey hasn't been able to evolve into a human being in the last hundreds or thousands of years?

Ok first of all humans did NOT evolve from monkeys or apes.That is a common misconception.Humans and apes have a common ancestor.That means that if you go back far enough then your great.......grand father,was the same species as a chimps great grand father.So there was this anscestor species that looked ape like.This species then split off into two seperate lineages.The first lineage evolved to become chimps.The second lineage became hairless,used tools and developed large brains.They are called humans.As for your point about liking coming from dust more.We actually are quite literally star dust.All atoms are made in the hearts of stars by forging lighter nuclei into heavier ones.That includes all the atoms that make up a human.When stars die they go supernova and expel material into space.This material eventually forms planets and life and humans.That is a lot more incredible than god creating us out of dust.

As for morality,it comes from our conscience and human empathy.I don't know about ancient documents but I would suggest buddhism.Probably not 5000 years old though.As for the pope he lives in a palace.But Jesus was the one who made no lasting abode,he taught that its easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.I don't think the pope can be a very good christian if he doesnt follow jesus's example.

If everything in the bible were real.......Well why would I want to worship someone who sends people to hell just for not believing in him.I'd ask him why he created so many messed up diseases.Tbh I'd probably do a lucifer and rebel.You know raise an army and go to war with God.Sounds like fun.

I don't think sexuality is a choice as there is no scientific evidence for it. I'd be interested to know if you could provide any evidence that it is?



People taking the "therapy" are 8 times more likely to commit suicide. Other horrifying statistics can be found here: http://www.hrc.org/resources/the-lies-and-dangers-of-reparative-therapy

They haven't found a specific gene nor any environmental factor(s) that determines sexuality so...if that's the case I'm guessing it is a choice...? Well if they found anything it hasn't been proven yet. I'm just seeing a lot of "May be this and may be that"

http://thefederalist.com/2015/07/08/how-choice-and-emotion-can-influence-sexual-orientation/
This is an interesting piece. Quite lengthy but engaging. It gives an interesting sociological and philosophical point of view on it.

That is sad about the therapy...but as I said I'm indifferent or have no opinions about the practice.

Whilst there have been no studies that pinpoint exactly which gene(s) are involved with sexuality, but there are plenty of studies showing genetic, social and environmental factors. These include:

http://www.livescience.com/50058-bei...-a-choice.html

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...lity-a-choice/

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/...ifications-dna

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...EA670C5F380343

However there are no (as I know of) scientific papers that suggest a choice component.

You're right, that article is super long! From what I've skim read, he seems to discard the theory put forward by research (a combination of factors not including choice) and instead puts his own theory forward which he offers no scientific back up for.

They haven't found a specific gene nor any environmental factor(s) that determines sexuality so...if that's the case I'm guessing it is a choice...? Well if they found anything it hasn't been proven yet. I'm just seeing a lot of "May be this and may be that"

http://thefederalist.com/2015/07/08/how-choice-and-emotion-can-influence-sexual-orientation/
This is an interesting piece. Quite lengthy but engaging. It gives an interesting sociological and philosophical point of view on it.

That is sad about the therapy...but as I said I'm indifferent or have no opinions about the practice.

Just because there is no specific gene doesnt mean its not genetic.Take intelligence for example,a large part of that is genetic.Yet we can't pinpoint a single gene thats responsible.Its likely a combination of different genes.Or its certain genes that only activate in the right environments.With something like eye colour there is a single gene responsible for it.I suspect sexuality is more like intelligence its many different factors working together.And you say there is no gene for sexuality but by your logic being straight is a choice? Where is the straight gene?