Fuel Blockade hits Gaza...Is this against humanitarian law? Watch

UniOfLife
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#121
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#121
(Original post by mdarwish01)
This happened at the peak of the Israeli's attack using all it's might include F-16 fighters and killing more than 30 Palestinians in less than a week. Are you expecting the Palestinians to sit watching their homeland being destroyed. Not even trying to resist with a very primitive rocket. Look at the difference between the amount Israeli's fire and the amount Palestinians fire. Don't resort to 5 days as examples for the norm.

Additionally, the Israeli's may have withdrawn from Gaza as you said (they have gained a lot of publicity in the process as being a 'peaceful' nation), but they have created an open air prison for 1.5 million Palestinians by controlling the land, sea, and air of the Gaza strip.

One final point. Look at the amount of Israeli citizens who are anti the seige. Look at the condemnation from the international world (RE: the draft UN resolution which was agreed by all apart from the USA and so failed). Do you really think there would be such an outcry if it wasn't justified. Or maybe you're calling all these people stupid.
So you're saying that the firing of rockets into civilian areas by Palestinians is justified and OK?

Also, it isn't just those 5 days. You ignored my post showing that 2,000 rockets had been fired last year.

On the point of an open air prison. Does Israel control the Gaza-Egypt border? No. So there you are, you're claim is untrue. But even if you were right, you still would not have defended your earlier claim that Palestinians are justified in their rocket attacks because Israel is trying to steal their land.

Finally, that people condemn it doesn't prove it to be wrong, does it? In the 1980's millions of Western people marched through the streets defending communism, that doesn't make communism right? And if your UNSC resolutions are so precious, do you think that the invasion of Iraq must have been right because the UNSC passed resolutions for it? Or that Iran must be wrong because the UN passed resolutions against it?
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mdarwish01
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#122
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Just do the maths:
2000/365 = 5.5 missiles per day. Now, consider the fact that only 10 people have been killed by them. Doesn't seem that significant now does it? Making a big deal out of nothing? I think so.

Secondly Israel has signed a treaty with Egypt agreeing for borders to be controlled in agreement with each other. This includes putting EU observers as an extra security measure for Israel. So Gaza is in fact an open air prison, controlled solely by the Israelis whether you like it or not.

Even reading through western newspapers, you can see that no-one agrees with this blockade, they all call it collective punishment, and all are against it.

Do you think that the entire international community is stupid? You didn't answer me last time? Maybe because you're stuck. Look at yourselves, how many people does it take to defend Israel. I wouldn't be surprised if you asked for help from chief Israeli negotiators.
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UniOfLife
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(Original post by mdarwish01)
Just do the maths:
2000/365 = 5.5 missiles per day. Now, consider the fact that only 10 people have been killed by them. Doesn't seem that significant now does it? Making a big deal out of nothing? I think so.

Secondly Israel has signed a treaty with Egypt agreeing for borders to be controlled in agreement with each other. This includes putting EU observers as an extra security measure for Israel. So Gaza is in fact an open air prison, controlled solely by the Israelis whether you like it or not.

Even reading through western newspapers, you can see that no-one agrees with this blockade, they all call it collective punishment, and all are against it.

Do you think that the entire international community is stupid? You didn't answer me last time? Maybe because you're stuck. Look at yourselves, how many people does it take to defend Israel. I wouldn't be surprised if you asked for help from chief Israeli negotiators.
I see, so because the rockets don't kill that many people they have no effect? Ever heard of the Chinese Water Torture?

On your second point. How can you sit there and type that the border is controlled by Egypt with EU observers and then go on to type that clearly it is controlled by Israel? Do you not feel slightly stupid writing one sentence that is contradicted by your previous one?

Do I think the International Community is stupid? No. But they expect higher standards from others than they would from themselves. It is easy brownie points to condemn something from a comfy armchair across the world.

Now, answer my question please. Would you continue to sell food to people who regularly trash your shop? Would you consider it inhumane to stop?
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mdarwish01
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(Original post by UniOfLife)
I see, so because the rockets don't kill that many people they have no effect? Ever heard of the Chinese Water Torture?

On your second point. How can you sit there and type that the border is controlled by Egypt with EU observers and then go on to type that clearly it is controlled by Israel? Do you not feel slightly stupid writing one sentence that is contradicted by your previous one?

Do I think the International Community is stupid? No. But they expect higher standards from others than they would from themselves. It is easy brownie points to condemn something from a comfy armchair across the world.

Now, answer my question please. Would you continue to sell food to people who regularly trash your shop? Would you consider it inhumane to stop?
I would not continue to sell food to people who trash my shop. But the analogy is very incorrect. You're giving the impression that Palestine can choose which country it gets its supply from. Israel is blocking all the avenues from which there can be any supply. However you are negelecting the fact that Israel is still the occupier; and has a duty according to international to supply Palestine with all their essential needs. Not to deprive hospitals, schools, and homes from power and water.

The situation now is that Israel is the sole supplier of Palestinian livelihood by virtue of the blockade, which is what they wanted in the first place. When Israel started the blocked, Palestinians had no choice but to cross the border into Egypt. Do you know how the Palestinians got into Egypt? They had to blow their way in, because Egypt didn't want them in there.

This is why Israel and the USA condemned the action as it gave a minute amount of choice to the Palestinians (please bear in mind, we're not talking about fuel or anything major here, just small things like potatoes). Israel and the USA don't want Palestinians to have any choice what so ever in their destiny. They want to strangulate them, even when the seek alternative resources themselves.
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UniOfLife
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#125
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(Original post by mdarwish01)
I would not continue to sell food to people who trash my shop. But the analogy is very incorrect. You're giving the impression that Palestine can choose which country it gets its supply from. Israel is blocking all the avenues from which there can be any supply. However you are negelecting the fact that Israel is still the occupier; and has a duty according to international to supply Palestine with all their essential needs. Not to deprive hospitals, schools, and homes from power and water.

The situation now is that Israel is the sole supplier of Palestinian livelihood by virtue of the blockade, which is what they wanted in the first place. When Israel started the blocked, Palestinians had no choice but to cross the border into Egypt. Do you know how the Palestinians got into Egypt? They had to blow their way in, because Egypt didn't want them in there.

This is why Israel and the USA condemned the action as it gave a minute amount of choice to the Palestinians (please bear in mind, we're not talking about fuel or anything major here, just small things like potatoes). Israel and the USA don't want Palestinians to have any choice what so ever in their destiny. They want to strangulate them, even when the seek alternative resources themselves.
Again you contradict yourself within the same post. How can you keep doing that?

Israel has a responsibility to ensure that basic services continue running. They are keeping to that and promised to keep to that. There was enough fuel in Gaza to run the essential services.

As you correctly point out, Egypt closed their border with Gaza. Egypt not Israel. You can attempt to imply that Israel has sealed the Palestinians off from everyone but you yourself have had to admit more than once that it is not just Israel.

You would stop selling food to those who trash your shop. Israel likewise has stopped selling stuff to the Palestinians in Gaza. That's all. If that is inhumane then so are you.
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krisstassen
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#126
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(Original post by UniOfLife)
Again you contradict yourself within the same post. How can you keep doing that?

Israel has a responsibility to ensure that basic services continue running. They are keeping to that and promised to keep to that. There was enough fuel in Gaza to run the essential services.

As you correctly point out, Egypt closed their border with Gaza. Egypt not Israel. You can attempt to imply that Israel has sealed the Palestinians off from everyone but you yourself have had to admit more than once that it is not just Israel.

You would stop selling food to those who trash your shop. Israel likewise has stopped selling stuff to the Palestinians in Gaza. That's all. If that is inhumane then so are you.

You can blame egypt all you like but this situation should not have arisen...israel is responsible 100 percent..i can say from a neutral viewpoint
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UniOfLife
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I'm not blaming Egypt or Israel because there is nothing to be blamed for. I am merely pointing out that Gaza is not completely sealed by Israel as darwish would like to claim. What has happened is merely that Israel has had enough of being bombed and has stopped selling or providing free stuff to Gaza. Essential fuel and medical supplies are being provided but nothing more. Egypt obviously did not particularly want to sell stuff to the Palestinians so it kept it's border closed too.
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DrunkHamster
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#128
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(Original post by UniOfLife)
I'm not blaming Egypt or Israel because there is nothing to be blamed for. I am merely pointing out that Gaza is not completely sealed by Israel as darwish would like to claim. What has happened is merely that Israel has had enough of being bombed and has stopped selling or providing free stuff to Gaza. Essential fuel and medical supplies are being provided but nothing more. Egypt obviously did not particularly want to sell stuff to the Palestinians so it kept it's border closed too.
Exactly: look at it further even - imagine the Palestinians got their own way and the Gaza strip was part of an independent Palestinian state. What do you think would happen to a sovereign state where members of the armed wing of the governing party were firing out rockets on a regular basis? I'll put it this way, I doubt they'd be receiving any free fuel and water in the first place.
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Agent Smith
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#129
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(Original post by mdarwish01)
I would not continue to sell food to people who trash my shop. But the analogy is very incorrect. You're giving the impression that Palestine can choose which country it gets its supply from. Israel is blocking all the avenues from which there can be any supply.
Except the border with Egypt that, despite the fact that Hamas blew it open in seventeen places and the Egyptians have not attempted to close it again, you are still claiming is being held shut by the iron fist of Israel.

Also, you say the US and Israel want to strangle the Palestinians. Can you suggest a reason why they would want to do this?
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ssk2
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You can blame egypt all you like but this situation should not have arisen...israel is responsible 100 percent..i can say from a neutral viewpoint
You have an extremely warped perception of what it is to be neutral.
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*titanium*
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why is it that the same type of people that crtisize the USA for waterboarding detaniees in Guintamino since it is according to them such a cruel practice, pass off the 4200 rockets fired at Israel from Gaza since the disengagment in 2005 as being nothing much since only 10 people have been killed despite the fact that every few days buildings are damaged 15% of the population have left the area effected and 1 in 4 people in the area have visited a phyciatric facility to see a phycoloigist. Strangley enough they then accuse of the terrible breach in human rights of flying low over Palestinian houses which wakes them up at night, but again firing 4200 rockets is nothing.

I have always been disgusted by the left, since they have a political agenda and use human rights as a tool even though in reality they dont respect anyones human rights. The Egyptions build a wall between them and the palestinians, fine, Israel builds one and you are up in arms. You say that it is because it puts part of the westbank with in Israel, and yet this is because of the geography, there is no point of putting a wall in a valley where palestinian snippers can continue to shoot straight over it, there is an almost equal amount of Israel annexed to the westbank the only reason anyone cares is because they can use it against Israel, just like the digging near the temple mount and yet no one seemed to care when the arabs where digging on the temple mount itself.

Look at this

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

Palestinian journalists are saying that hamas has staged the blackout, they where invited to a meeting held by candle light...in broad day light with he curtains closed!!!

The only time anyone is interested in Palestinian human rights is when they can blame Israel for breaching them. No one hates Israel because of how Palestinians are treated, its all a case of caring how Israel treats the Palestinians because they hate israel.
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PeeWeeDan
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#132
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(Original post by *titanium*)
Why is it that the same type of people that criticize the USA for waterboarding detaniees in Guintamino since it is according to them such a cruel practice, pass off the 4200 rockets fired at Israel from Gaza since the disengagement in 2005 as being nothing much since only 10 people have been killed despite the fact that every few days buildings are damaged 15% of the population have left the area effected and 1 in 4 people in the area have visited a psychiatric facility to see a psychiatrist? Strangely enough they then accuse of the terrible breach in human rights of flying low over Palestinian houses which wakes them up at night, but again firing 4200 rockets is nothing.

I have always been disgusted by the left, since they have a political agenda and use human rights as a tool even though in reality they dont respect anyones human rights. The Egyptians build a wall between them and the Palestinians, fine, Israel builds one and you are up in arms. You say that it is because it puts part of the west bank with in Israel, and yet this is because of the geography, there is no point of putting a wall in a valley where Palestinian snippers can continue to shoot straight over it, there is an almost equal amount of Israel annexed to the west bank the only reason anyone cares is because they can use it against Israel, just like the digging near the temple mount and yet no one seemed to care when the Arabs where digging on the temple mount itself.

Look at this

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

Palestinian journalists are saying that Hamas has staged the blackout, they where invited to a meeting held by candle light...in broad day light with he curtains closed!!!

The only time anyone is interested in Palestinian human rights is when they can blame Israel for breaching them. No one hates Israel because of how Palestinians are treated, its all a case of caring how Israel treats the Palestinians because they hate Israel.
I have copied the text of this post, and it is saved forever. In future when necessary, this text will be copied and pasted, because it is absolutely brilliant(I did change a bit of grammar tho :P)
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Captain Crash
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(Original post by *titanium*)
what documents claim this? Egypt and other arab countries where openly talking about destroying Israel. Israel isnt allowed to take them seriously on their owrds? Yes quality matters aswell as quantity, but back in 1967 Israel didnt have much of a qualitve advantage, in terms of the quality of the officers then yes, but in terms of equipment, no.
The foreign minister (Abba Eban) at the time's personal (and later published) minutes?

As for the army, I've checked some figures and Israel matched the armies of Jordan, Syria and Egypt combined, before even taking into consideration the reserve forces.
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Captain Crash
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(Original post by PeeWeeDan)
Berlin Air lift?
You need an airport for an airlift.

Berlin had one

Gaza doesn't.

(Original post by JonathanH)
Rubbish. The palestinians just blew a bunch of holes in it, there are no Israelis anywhere near.
Sorry? How do you know Israeli's weren't present. At the very least they maintained an observer status during the brief control of the border by Hamas. The border was closed at Israels behest - the fact that Egypt isn't rushing to fortify the border and telling Israel it's their problem is indicative of this.
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Captain Crash
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(Original post by Agent Smith)
Also, you say the US and Israel want to strangle the Palestinians. Can you suggest a reason why they would want to do this?
Well Israel do because they see Palestine as the enemy (rightly or wrongly) and in the ideal world would want the West Bank and Gaza without the Palestinians on it.

The US do, because whether they like it or not, the US have to continue to support Israel, for a number of reasons.
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Captain Crash
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(Original post by *titanium*)
why is it that the same type of people that crtisize the USA for waterboarding detaniees in Guintamino since it is according to them such a cruel practice, pass off the 4200 rockets fired at Israel from Gaza since the disengagment in 2005 as being nothing much since only 10 people have been killed despite the fact that every few days buildings are damaged 15% of the population have left the area effected and 1 in 4 people in the area have visited a phyciatric facility to see a phycoloigist. Strangley enough they then accuse of the terrible breach in human rights of flying low over Palestinian houses which wakes them up at night, but again firing 4200 rockets is nothing.
First there's a moral distinction between torture of a imprisoned individual and terrorism/freedom fighting. Moral equivocation does really help the matter.

Secondly, it's a matter of oppression. If a nation is illegally occupied, it is usually deemed acceptable for them to fight back (admittedly, I don't condone the fact that they're targeting civilians). Conversely the occupier has less moral acceptability for attacking the occupied state. That is the root cause this 'double standards' you're complaining about.
(Original post by *titanium*)
I have always been disgusted by the left, since they have a political agenda and use human rights as a tool even though in reality they dont respect anyones human rights. The Egyptions build a wall between them and the palestinians, fine, Israel builds one and you are up in arms. You say that it is because it puts part of the westbank with in Israel, and yet this is because of the geography, there is no point of putting a wall in a valley where palestinian snippers can continue to shoot straight over it, there is an almost equal amount of Israel annexed to the westbank the only reason anyone cares is because they can use it against Israel, just like the digging near the temple mount and yet no one seemed to care when the arabs where digging on the temple mount itself.
First the Egyptian border is an international border. There's nothing controversial about that - the US has one with Mexico for a start. Internal walling off of areas because you dislike or want to dissociate yourself with a people who are (ostensibly) part of your country is a completely different thing, whatever the practicalities may be.

(Original post by *titanium*)
Look at this

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull
Great, the Jerusalem Post. They'd be objective and balanced wouldn't they?:rolleyes:
(Original post by *titanium*)
The only time anyone is interested in Palestinian human rights is when they can blame Israel for breaching them. No one hates Israel because of how Palestinians are treated, its all a case of caring how Israel treats the Palestinians because they hate israel.
Erm...no, Palestine is entirely the reason why Israel is criticised by the 'left' (who ever they are) these days. If Israel solved the Palestinian crisis, most of the poor opinion and criticism of Israel would drop at an instant. Most people don't hate Israel (i certainly don't. However I would prefer them to sort the crisis out)
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davidjones90
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It's all just very sad really and people from both sides are going to continue to suffer, in which the international community is trying to kick-start a peace process for the millionth time.

What I have a problem is that for some months now Gaza has been a virtual prison, there is very very little movement of trade in and out of the strip, some argue its enough for the basics, but I disagree people there are starving there and the damage to the 'prison wall', which you may like to call it shows how desperate there are just to get the basic goods.

In all honestly though, the damage the Qassam rockets make is negligible compared to Israeli military force, whilst I can see Israel being pissed of about it, you should see the People living in Gaza are even more pissed off about it and its just one messy circle.

So for the love of God, get Hamas leader(s), Abbas, Olmert on one table and reach some decent agreement in which you can make grounds for long-term sustainable peace in which Israeli's and Palestinians get JUSTICE, especially the latter.
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danielf90
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(Original post by Captain Crash)
First the Egyptian border is an international border. There's nothing controversial about that - the US has one with Mexico for a start. Internal walling off of areas because you dislike or want to dissociate yourself with a people who are (ostensibly) part of your country is a completely different thing, whatever the practicalities may be.
How many times does it need to said. The palestinians are NOT part of israel, they aren't israeli citizens. They were fricking jordanian until 1967 and they weren't even really part of jordan.

The border between israel and the west bank is a security necessity! The west bank is not part of israel - nor are the palestinian citizens within it. Its these lies that keep fuelling palestinians to believe that they're going to get everything they wish for and more!
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danielf90
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(Original post by danielf90)
How many times does it need to said. The palestinians are NOT part of israel, they aren't israeli citizens. They were fricking jordanian until 1967 and they weren't even really part of jordan.

The border between israel and the west bank is a security necessity! The west bank is not part of israel - nor are the palestinian citizens within it. Its these lies that keep fuelling palestinians to believe that they're going to get everything they wish for and more!

I'd like to ask all the pro-palestinians: What SHOULD israel do (short-term) to stop the rockets? Israel has the duty to defend its citizens, how SHOULD they do this (short-term)?
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Captain Crash
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(Original post by danielf90)
How many times does it need to said. The palestinians are NOT part of israel, they aren't israeli citizens. They were fricking jordanian until 1967 and they weren't even really part of jordan.

The border between israel and the west bank is a security necessity! The west bank is not part of israel - nor are the palestinian citizens within it. Its these lies that keep fuelling palestinians to believe that they're going to get everything they wish for and more!
If Palestine isn't part of Israel, it's certainly under it's sovereignty. And this is part of the problem - Israel is keeping Palestine in a state of limbo, neither officially annexing it nor giving it independence. The result is they have de facto sovereignty over Palestine whilst denying the obligation to treat Palestinians equally.
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