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    (Original post by MC REN)
    That isn't really what I said, but you have given me the names of 3 people who have done well in sports despite being vegan (and you admitted that they weren't necessarily all vegans when they were younger) and...you then said that this shows the vegan diet is the best for sports. 3 people is not evidence, given that there are some 30million non-vegan athletes (yer I plucked this figure out of nowhere, but whatever). The fraction of vegans in world class athletics is much lower than the fraction in the general population, which exactly supports the point I was making (although is far from conclusive, most vegans don't tend to be testosterone filled athletic types anyway, from a sociology view). Ignoring your evidence is pretty justifiable in this case since it concerns only 3 cases, which you admitted were flawed (not vegans during youth) - science isn't blind, you have to disregard some anomalies...

    Some athletes are naturally good enough that even with a poor diet they can succeed, so you can't use such a small number of people as an example.

    You can argue that the vegan diet is healthy, but I really don't think you have much of a leg to stand on by saying it is intrinsically any healthier than other diets. There are papers out there with people raising concerns about veganism - but of course many (probably most) would be fine on the diet, as long as they were careful (as they would be on any diet).

    You make a good point at the end - athletes think a lot more about diet these days and they spend a lot of money on expensive dieticians, and yet all of these are not recommending they take up vegan diets. So that pretty much blows your theory out of the water.

    I'm not going to reply on this thread anymore though, because this isn't what the thread was about.

    Veganism can be very well suited to athletes, www.veganfitness.net is a forum and there are many strong vegans on there (by strong I mean, what I call stupidly big muscles). Since turning vegan I haven't been ill with the exception of eating some gone of food (which gave me awful stomach pains but after ******** it wasn't so bad). I don't think you can put that down to say, a weak immune system.

    The reasons why veganism can be healthier:
    no meat, which is great if you get protein from other places, like any sensible vegan will do.
    no milk, not that great for us when you look into it, despite what the milk industry wants to you believe. around 70% of the worlds population are allergice to milk and/or have a form of lactose intolerance.
    eggs, health wise, I have no argument against eating them, moral wise I do.

    I get plenty of every vitamin in my diet, however I also supplement vitamin B12, I do however get that from organic carrots when I don't wash them too well (you don't want to know what that means )

    The rest of my vitamins I get all over the place, tomatoes, spinach, broccoli, peas, sprouts, beans, lentils, and a variety of fruit. I get calcium and iron from green leafy vegetables, broccoli, and black treacle, I get vitamin D from sunlight and margarine. I get zinc and iodine from green leafy vegetables, I get MG from lentils green leafies and whole grains. I get protein from beans, nuts, lentils, wholegrains, soya milk, and vegetables in general. I have a reasonably cheap, varied diet. It contains everything I can see that I need, oh and for fats, green leafy vegetables, nuts and seeds.

    So, tell me what I'm missing?

    I also eat pumpkin seeds, and the nuts I eat are generally brazil and almonds.

    What I don't get are animal fats which aren't good for the body, stupid amounts of cholesterol, or most of the hormones from meat/milk etc.

    I see my diet as healthy, and probably healthier than most meat eaters diets, yet you're telling me, in that diet, where I get every nutrient I need, that it contains health risks?
    I fail to see your logic.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    did he just claim veganism can't have a balanced diet? a balanced diet isn't about eating a balance of meat and veggies, it's a balance of what nutrients you get.

    i don't know man! he's a time waster, hate it!

    i can't take this dude anymore. He's saying I'm misquoting him. It's often a ploy used when they loose an argument.
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    (Original post by MeAndBubbles)
    i don't know man!

    i can't take this dude anymore. He's saying I'm misquoting him. It's often a ploy used when they loose an argument.
    when they loose an argument...hahahahaha
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Veganism can be very well suited to athletes, [url]www.
    I fail to see your logic.


    Good on you!!!!! I fully support you, and hope your grades are high. Is your concentration good? Is amazing how the body get's its act together and can make it's own nutrients. I read that some people might have problems if they don't have an ensyme called D6D, (desaturase). Eat clean, good food and hope it works out well for you.
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    (Original post by MeAndBubbles)
    well ******* stop *********
    Erm no. Im sorry but I cant afford to eat eggs from chickens which have been free to roam as they are about twice the price of cheap eggs. And whether I eat them or not they're still being produced so may as well be eaten.
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    (Original post by Danielle89)
    Erm no. Im sorry but I cant afford to eat eggs from chickens which have been free to roam as they are about twice the price of cheap eggs. And whether I eat them or not they're still being produced so may as well be eaten.
    Do you HAVE to eat the eggs?
    Also:

    Demand>supply

    I'm not saying there's more demand than supply, but that it's of greater worth, because the supply follows the demand around, but the demand does not follow the supply around.

    So by making more of a demand, more of the supply is profitable, this helps to keep the egg industry running. If you didn't eat the eggs, then the demand would be a bit less, and more of the supply would be unprofitable, the more people that don't eat the eggs, the less profitable the supply is, and so the supply will be reduced according to how much demand is left (in other words some of the excess supply will stop being provided, and there will therefore be less caged birds being forced to lay egg after egg).
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    I think I used the word balanced, but I meant it in the sense of different foods rather than different nutrients - it was just a way of referring to a diet that doesn't restrict the eating of certain things. I wasn't claiming vegans can't have a balanced diet I was just using the word balanced to describe a different diet. Stop being so precious.

    Oh and MeAndBubbles - you are misinterpreting what I say, that isn't a case of you winning an argument, it is a case of you just not bothering to try and understand what I say or twisting it to suit your own means.

    Sports wise, however many vegans you find I am certain that the fraction of high calibre vegan athletes is lower than the proportion of vegans in the general population. Take this how you will (and take the point about dieticians, etc). I suspect what you'll do is just ignore it and then claim to have won an argument. Incidentally I don't really think this is much of an argument - I have little realy opinion on the matter, I just think it is a bit of an uncertainty (not even a guaranteed health risk or whatever) and you are just attacking me because of this. It remains a salient point that people don't generally become vegan to excel at sports, some succeed whilst being vegans but became vegans because of moral reasons. Your claim that veganism is the optimum diet for sports is ridiculous, my claim that veganism isn't necessarily bad but isn't necessarily better than a normal diet is fairly reasonable. I don't understand how you could disagree with this

    The reasons why veganism can be healthier:
    no meat, which is great if you get protein from other places, like any sensible vegan will do.
    no milk, not that great for us when you look into it, despite what the milk industry wants to you believe. around 70% of the worlds population are allergice to milk and/or have a form of lactose intolerance.
    eggs, health wise, I have no argument against eating them, moral wise I do.
    These reasons make no sense - meat is not intrinsically bad, honestly. You admit yourself that eggs aren't bad so I have no idea why you even included them. Milk is quite bad for you I guess, but some mild exposure to bad things helps boost the immune system, etc, and whatever it tastes nice...

    Another point of mine which you both seem to consistently miss is that I think it is possible to have a (nutritionally) balanced vegan diet, but it is harder than with a standard diet. So unless the vegan in question is especially careful/consults a nutritionist there is large scope for them to not get all their requirements. For children, this could be especially true - as they are often picky eaters. There are minerals, etc, that are plentiful in animal products and only occur in trace amounts in vegetables (like zinc or something maybe) - so while it is obviously possible to get your requirement, it is considerably harder and needs much more careful planning and stuff.

    Seriously, I don't get why you have such a problem with my views though - the thing that started this argument was me saying that we don't know everything we need to function 100% and many areas of human development aren't fully understood, and it seems the safest way to try and accumulate as many vital nutrients as possible is a balanced (in terms of variety) diet. If you don't agree with this then whatever, but it isn't actually an offensive view or a blind attack on veganism or whatever (for what it's worth my three closest friends are all vegetarians/vegans, I have no problem with the lifestyle - although obviously it leads to social problems, I for one would hate not being able to eat in nice restaurants or like anywhere in Norway, for example.)

    Although incidentally, Norwegians are as a nation (in my view...) one of the fittest and healthiest people and hardly anyone there is vegetarian/vegan - they don't even cater for them in most places, like McDonalds and whatever.
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    my point is you're saying there are health risks, when I don't think there are. And meat has bad things in it, as well as good things in it. Therefore if you get the good things from somewhere else, but not the bad things, how can that be bad? I get plenty of zinc in my diet from: lentils, whole grains, pumpkin seeds, green leafy vegetables and almonds, care to use a good example?

    I'm unsure of what's good for you in animal fat, please can you clear that up for me, or does meat not contain animal fat now?

    "Another point of mine which you both seem to consistently miss is that I think it is possible to have a (nutritionally) balanced vegan diet, but it is harder than with a standard diet" I'm unsure of how it's harder, please can you be more specific?

    I went to a dietitian who didn't tell me I needed to change my diet really but suggested I might benefit from eating more banana's and mushrooms (I was already eating them). But it wasn't vital.

    I also get plenty of different sources of each nutrient.
    I don't find my diet is hard, in fact, it seems pretty easy.

    My problem with what you say is that you make veganism out to be hard/full of health risks/impossible to do healthily without seeing a dietitian.
    I don't see how any of that is true.

    oh and:
    "Milk is quite bad for you I guess, but some mild exposure to bad things helps boost the immune system,"
    you think that milk helps the immune system?
    mild exposure to bacteria can help the immune system, as it helps to keep it working, exposure to hard to digest substances aren't going to help the digestive system.
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    (Original post by Danielle89)
    Erm no. Im sorry but I cant afford to eat eggs from chickens which have been free to roam as they are about twice the price of cheap eggs. And whether I eat them or not they're still being produced so may as well be eaten.
    i partly understand. Asda have a great offer now. £1.50 for 15 free range. Normally there're about 2.20 for 12.
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    (Original post by MC REN)
    A lot of people get health problems from veganism (people I know of from doctors and some internet stuff, so anecdotal) and I don't think at the moment, with our current levels of understanding of what the human body needs and what exactly is in our food, we can be certain that the vegan diet provides all that you need. Vitamin D and B12 requirements are commonly cited as not being met by a vegan diet, vegetarians can do enough to get past this though.

    It seems like putting your health at risk, there isn't a long enough historical precedent (any vegans like 100 years ago would've just died pretty quickly) or enough scientific knowledge to really know if it is dangerous or not and there are enough cases of people getting ill due to it that it seems like an uneccessary risk. There are some case studies showing that there are health risks, but I don't have medical journal access here so finding them all will be a hassle.

    I definitely wouldn't be happy if a child of mine or say a pregnant friend were on a strict vegan diet. Once you've fully developed then probably is okay, although I wouldn't say optimum (I mean it isn't, you won't be a successful sports star or something without having an actual balanced diet).

    But I don't want to say too much about it, because the basic point seems to be that people don't know whether or not it is healthy enough and you are free to do what you want. Not many doctors I know would advocate a vegan diet.

    Ok, I've put the contentious paragraph in bold. I interpret the paragraph to mean that the vegan diet is not balanced enough to be a successful sports star. Explain why that is not a correct reading of the paragraph?
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    (Original post by MeAndBubbles)
    Ok, I've put the contentious paragraph in bold. I interpret the paragraph to mean that the vegan diet is not balanced enough to be a successful sports star. Explain why that is not a correct reading of the paragraph?
    oh lol, I'd forgotten how I'd phrased that. Fine change it to "it seems that you're less likely to be a successful sports star without a balanced diet and top dieticiansdon't seem to recommend the vegan diet for their athletes".

    Athletes don't exactly eat traditional diets anyway and it is even more of a strain getting all the high quantities of proteins, etc, needed for development if you don't eat meat (not least because tofu and lentils and stuff taste like ****). There is a big difference between being a healthy adult and being a growing child or an athlete. Too much of anything is pretty much a bad thing, even something life tofu* - which an athlete would presumably have to eat a lot of to build muscle mass and stuff.

    Any diet where you are restriced from eating certain things is clearly harder than one where you aren't. Most of my local takeaways and chip shops and things fry in animal fat, gelatin is in everything, chocolate contains milk and stuff - can you not see how a child may find it hard not being able to eat any traditional treats?

    *search for the relevant articles if you want...

    Soya compounds called isoflavones, which mimic the female sex hormone oestrogen, are thought to be behind the effect.

    Researchers in Boston, US, quizzed men seeking help for fertility problems and found those who ate the most soya had sperm counts as much as 50 per cent lower.

    Meanwhile British tests found tofu may damage pensioners’ memories.

    Eating just a half serving a day of soy-based foods could be enough to significantly lower a man's sperm count, according to the U.S. researchers.

    A team analyzed the intake of 15 soy-based foods in 99 men who went to a fertility clinic between 2000 and 2006.

    They were asked how much and how often in the prior three months they had eaten soy-rich foods including: tofu, tempeh, tofu or soy sausages, bacon, burgers and mince, soy milk, cheese, yogurt and ice cream, and other soy products such drinks, powders and energy bars.

    The impact was "striking" it is reported.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    around 70% of the worlds population are allergice to milk and/or have a form of lactose intolerance.

    What I don't get are animal fats which aren't good for the body, stupid amounts of cholesterol, or most of the hormones from meat/milk etc.

    I wish people wouldn't say things which can be misinterpreted by people who don't know very much about it. 70% of the worlds populations have a form of lactose intolerence because in china/east aisia milk was never drunk. In countries where peoples ancestors have always drunk milk, the instances of real, severe, intolerence are much lower.

    Animal fats are not bad for you as part of a healthy balanced diet, you just have to be careful with them.

    And I think fur is fine. particularly vintage fur, I would only buy fur new if it could be traced and was sustainable and humane.
 
 
 
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