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Apeiron
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#1381
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#1381
(Original post by Aesc)
Reminds me of being at UNIQ summer school last year and teasing some of the others (who were more Northern) by saying that the Ashmolean was quite good but couldn't compare to a proper London museum like the BM
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Although from what I've seen of Cambridge's Fitzwilliam, that's not half as good as the Ashmolean. Fortunately the Museum of Classical Archaeology, in the department, makes up for it
I am ashamed to say that I've never been to the Ashmolean. However, with my son, I hope, starting at Oxford next year I should be able to redress that.
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Apeiron
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#1382
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#1382
(Original post by The Lyceum)
Yeah, I guess Indian scholars are sort of stuck in the past a bit on that one for various political reasons. It's been a long time since we've considered India. Though the book does make some serious points actually. The problem is we need to get the Arya in India, the Hittites in Hattusas, Greeks in Greece really early and thus India is a bad node. Conversely the Indic branch is ridiculously conservative in sooo many areas. For starters they're the only ones that kept something of the IE religion (we killed of the Lithuanian version in Europe...ffs!) and the level of IE "use words" in every day speech is significantly higher than other branches. However conservationism does not equal origin. Although if we decipher the IV scripts and it turns out to be IE I'm going to just throw out all of my textbooks and give up.

The book is right in lamenting the lack of Indian participation in PIE studies though. They wield Sanskrit better than Western scholars can manage Greek and Latin and if they stopped being stroppy we'd make some real advances. Ah well.

Ah London...hopefully I get to visit again soon. I miss the BM.



Remember my plan to memorise sizeable chunks of it? I got to 1.49 :lol:
Yes, for those mainly geographic reasons I'd need a lot of convincing that the Pontic Steppe was not the primary location. Not a great fan of Gimbutas on the whole, but I think she was following the right track here.

I spent a year doing a Sanskrit module and really enjoyed it (some Armenian and Old Persian too). Now I find I can't even read devanagari. Do people get IE options in Classics these days?

Vergil? Never a great fan, I'm afraid, but liked the Georgics.
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The Lyceum
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#1383
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#1383
(Original post by Apeiron)
Yes, for those mainly geographic reasons I'd need a lot of convincing that the Pontic Steppe was not the primary location. Not a great fan of Gimbutas on the whole, but I think she was following the right track here.

I spent a year doing a Sanskrit module and really enjoyed it (some Armenian and Old Persian too). Now I find I can't even read devanagari. Do people get IE options in Classics these days?

Vergil? Never a great fan, I'm afraid, but liked the Georgics.

Devanagari is a ***** of an alphabet to work with, especially if you don't work with it a lot, it's easy to forget it. Armenian frustrates me so much incidentally.

I know some uni's like to run IE modules in their Classics departments but they're usually really basic. In Ox for example from what I've seen we just do a series of basic rules, embellished with some obligatory (not very well done) references to Sanskrit. It's a joke in that its so...sparse. But then the focus isn't training the kind of scary linguists you get in the London uni's. I couldn't help but notice you went to SOAS, it's nowhere near that level.

At a graduate level it's completely different though, we have lots of specific grad seminars dealing with Early/Mid Indo/Iranian, Germanic, Old Church Slavonic etc etc. It's great and I've found ample people to debate and discuss with both in and out of my course modules.

You know sometimes I think I should leave Classics and just go into full on Linguistics.
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placenta medicae talpae
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#1384
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#1384
(Original post by Sappho)
Oooh, shame on you. Don't you like pronouncing Latin? I love it. My ears actually jangle when people pronounce things wrong.
Try living through some of the choral music we do then!
I still do soft v's though and no-one notices :ninja:

Though unfortunately when it comes to things like 'coeli' being pronounced 'chelly' (or was it chelleye, with the last syllable rhyming with the things you use for seeing -- can't remember), you really can't hide because otherwise you'd stand out like a sore thing.
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Sappho
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#1385
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#1385
(Original post by Apeiron)
Myceneans = Germans? I've clearly led a sheltered life.
Cool, I am Mycenean?
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Sappho
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#1386
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#1386
(Original post by placenta medicae talpae)
Try living through some of the choral music we do then!
I still do soft v's though and no-one notices :ninja:

Though unfortunately when it comes to things like 'coeli' being pronounced 'chelly' (or was it chelleye, with the last syllable rhyming with the things you use for seeing -- can't remember), you really can't hide because otherwise you'd stand out like a sore thing.
I know! I regularly die in services! At least I'm a confident singer, so I sing it the right way as loudly as I can :yep:
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medbh4805
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#1387
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#1387
(Original post by Aesc)
Reminds me of being at UNIQ summer school last year and teasing some of the others (who were more Northern) by saying that the Ashmolean was quite good but couldn't compare to a proper London museum like the BM
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Although from what I've seen of Cambridge's Fitzwilliam, that's not half as good as the Ashmolean. Fortunately the Museum of Classical Archaeology, in the department, makes up for it
It's got nothing on the Ulster Museum..........

:teehee:
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The Lyceum
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#1388
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#1388
(Original post by Sappho)
Cool, I am Mycenean?
In the eyes of a deluded few, apparently.

And now now there is no "right" way to pronounce Latin, remember.

I might go to the Ashmolean today actually, it's open till 6. Just can't get anybody to go with me, so I'll be Johnny No Mates. :p:E
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Apeiron
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#1389
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#1389
(Original post by The Lyceum)
Devanagari is a ***** of an alphabet to work with, especially if you don't work with it a lot, it's easy to forget it. Armenian frustrates me so much incidentally.

I know some uni's like to run IE modules in their Classics departments but they're usually really basic. In Ox for example from what I've seen we just do a series of basic rules, embellished with some obligatory (not very well done) references to Sanskrit. It's a joke in that its so...sparse. But then the focus isn't training the kind of scary linguists you get in the London uni's. I couldn't help but notice you went to SOAS, it's nowhere near that level.

At a graduate level it's completely different though, we have lots of specific grad seminars dealing with Early/Mid Indo/Iranian, Germanic, Old Church Slavonic etc etc. It's great and I've found ample people to debate and discuss with both in and out of my course modules.

You know sometimes I think I should leave Classics and just go into full on Linguistics.
I'm afraid I did not do too well in SOAS, supposedly working on phonological change, but being endlessly diverted by the then London 'linguistics scene' with its alluring emphasis on theory. I don't intend to go down that road again.

Now, I have bit more free time I may gently update myself on recent pIE stuff, but my main interest is C6th/C7th Greece.
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The Lyceum
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#1390
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#1390
(Original post by Apeiron)
I'm afraid I did not do too well in SOAS, supposedly working on phonological change, but being endlessly diverted by the then London 'linguistics scene' with its alluring emphasis on theory. I don't intend to go down that road again.

Now, I have bit more free time I may gently update myself on recent pIE stuff, but my main interest is C6th/C7th Greece.
Ah my sympathies, I'm not much for all that fancy stuff on its own...but it can be a very welcome supplement.

I'm also principally working on the archaic age btw, hopefully it's becoming fashionable again.
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placenta medicae talpae
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#1391
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#1391
(Original post by The Lyceum)
In the eyes of a deluded few, apparently.

And now now there is no "right" way to pronounce Latin, remember.

I might go to the Ashmolean today actually, it's open till 6. Just can't get anybody to go with me, so I'll be Johnny No Mates. :p:E
Well there kind of were correct ways to pronounce Latin, but we just don't know precisely what they were, no?
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Apeiron
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#1392
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#1392
(Original post by placenta medicae talpae)
Well there kind of were correct ways to pronounce Latin, but we just don't know precisely what they were, no?
We have a fair idea, actually. See:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vox-Latina-G...8458859&sr=8-1

But there are some gaps, e.g. prosody.
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Sappho
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#1393
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#1393
(Original post by The Lyceum)
And now now there is no "right" way to pronounce Latin, remember.
Uhm. I'm sure if you say gent-ass it's not the right way to pronounce gentes. And digitum does not sound like digit plus um. You may wish to say leti-tsi-a instead of laeti-ti-a or in ex-tsel-zees instead of in ex-kel-zees. But not ex-tsel-ziz nor ex-kel-ziz. Bonus should rhime with onus - and they should both have a short O (!!!).
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The Lyceum
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#1394
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#1394
(Original post by Sappho)
Uhm. I'm sure if you say gent-ass it's not the right way to pronounce gentes. And digitum does not sound like digit plus um. You may wish to say leti-tsi-a instead of laeti-ti-a or in ex-tsel-zees instead of in ex-kel-zees. But not ex-tsel-ziz nor ex-kel-ziz. Bonus should rhime with onus - and they should both have a short O (!!!).
Cute, but not what I meant. I'm talking about the simple fact that one can not outright state something is the correct way of speaking, Cicero most certainly had a different accent to Caesar, the Romanised Gauls another etc. Do you alter your accent based on what text you're studying? Juvenal is different in so many subtle small ways to Cicero. The fact that we struggle with so many elements of prosody only compounds matters.

On the next level there is a problem with how we ourselves pronounce it: it's alright trying to distinguish between /w/ and /v/ but the Latin versions do not equate with our ones. There are so many variations of /r/ so which do you choose? Likewise with vowel length, we rightfully distinguish between short and long vowels but the actual quality of an /a/ can vary heavily.

There is NOTHING, nothing so ugly to my ears as the Germanic accents many Anglo and Germanophonic scholars use when pronouncing Latin and Greek and claim is accurate because they have some idea about vowel length. There's much more to it than a few letters on a page. Unless you're naturally good at accents, or grew up multilingual, you're unlikely to be very good at pronouncing it. In my experience those protesting the loudest over the "correct way" are often amongst the worst.

Meditteranean/Asiatic tongues require those kinds of voices. It took me ages to train my palette to replicate the sounds until I was satisfied. Still, I would never tell anybody they were "wrong".
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The Lyceum
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#1395
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#1395
(Original post by Apeiron)
We have a fair idea, actually. See:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vox-Latina-G...8458859&sr=8-1

But there are some gaps, e.g. prosody.
Yeah this remains the best introduction. Basically when it comes to my turn to teaching I'm going to make sure any students are acquainted with Vox Graeca and Vox Latina as early on as possible. Though the former needs some pretty sizeable revisions in certain areas. I myself favour a much softer /d/ based on a) early medieval Greek sound changes and b) some interesting inscription gaffes.

EDIT: Also Sihler's grammar has some interesting stuff in re: phonology, I'm guessing you're probably acquainted with that though. Incidentally I managed to score a new edition hardback for £25 recently
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Sappho
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#1396
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#1396
(Original post by The Lyceum)
Cute, but not what I meant.
Well, you jumped into the discussion with an assertion, not me. So I'm not sure it's you who establishes the parametres of this discussion. But let me tell you what I think about what you said...
I'm talking about the simple fact that one can not outright state something is the correct way of speaking, Cicero most certainly had a different accent to Caesar, the Romanised Gauls another etc. Do you alter your accent based on what text you're studying? Juvenal is different in so many subtle small ways to Cicero. The fact that we struggle with so many elements of prosody only compounds matters.
I don't see your problem here. When I read French literature I don't pronounce it with a different accent according to what accent the author had obviously, why should I do it for French? And still there are certain ways to pronounce French right (the way native speakers would pronounce it, including different accents) and others that are wrong, like if I think that A sounds like U, then I will pronounce French WRONG.

There is NOTHING, nothing so ugly to my ears as the Germanic accents many Anglo and Germanophonic scholars use when pronouncing Latin and Greek and claim is accurate because they have some idea about vowel length. There's much more to it than a few letters on a page. Unless you're naturally good at accents, or grew up multilingual, you're unlikely to be very good at pronouncing it. In my experience those protesting the loudest over the "correct way" are often amongst the worst.
At least in the academic area it's important to have common rules. When I don't understand what someone says to me because they think digitum is digit+um, it hinders communication. When people can't pronounce Latin, they blush in class because they think pinus is pronounced penis. Yes, that happened in a Latin class I had in England. Lovely. It's important to teach people how to pronounce a language so they can understand each other. Have you never spoken to someone who learnt English and used a word they pronounced wrong so you had no clue what they were saying? Where's the difference?

On the next level there is a problem with how we ourselves pronounce it: it's alright trying to distinguish between /w/ and /v/ but the Latin versions do not equate with our ones. There are so many variations of /r/ so which do you choose? Likewise with vowel length, we rightfully distinguish between short and long vowels but the actual quality of an /a/ can vary heavily.
Only because there is no v-sound in English that doesn't correspond to the Latin V, that doesn't mean there is a problem? There is no TH sound in German, that doesn't mean I have to be unable to pronounce the TH for the rest of my life. You can learn how to say the U continuer or how to say Loch Lomond.
I don't understand what you mean for the R.
Only because vowel lengths can vary after the distinction of long and short vowels, that doesn't affect the distinction. Surely it makes sense to distinguish between solum "alone" and solum "floor", whether the long O in solum is longer or shorter than the one in mos.

I would never tell anybody they were "wrong".
Well. In short: I would.

I'm not saying the poor grannies in the services have to stop saying gent-ass, but Classics students ought to make an effort.
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The Lyceum
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#1397
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(Original post by Sappho)
Well, you jumped into the discussion with an assertion, not me. So I'm not sure it's you who establishes the parametres of this discussion. But let me tell you what I think about what you said...
I don't see your problem here. When I read French literature I don't pronounce it with a different accent according to what accent the author had obviously, why should I do it for French? And still there are certain ways to pronounce French right (the way native speakers would pronounce it, including different accents) and others that are wrong, like if I think that A sounds like U, then I will pronounce French WRONG.

At least in the academic area it's important to have common rules. When I don't understand what someone says to me because they think digitum is digit+um, it hinders communication. When people can't pronounce Latin, they blush in class because they think pinus is pronounced penis. Yes, that happened in a Latin class I had in England. Lovely. It's important to teach people how to pronounce a language so they can understand each other. Have you never spoken to someone who learnt English and used a word they pronounced wrong so you had no clue what they were saying? Where's the difference?

Only because there is no v-sound in English that doesn't correspond to the Latin V, that doesn't mean there is a problem? There is no TH sound in German, that doesn't mean I have to be unable to pronounce the TH for the rest of my life. You can learn how to say the U continuer or how to say Loch Lomond.
I don't understand what you mean for the R.
Only because vowel lengths can vary after the distinction of long and short vowels, that doesn't affect the distinction. Surely it makes sense to distinguish between solum "alone" and solum "floor", whether the long O in solum is longer or shorter than the one in mos.

Well. In short: I would.

I'm not saying the poor grannies in the services have to stop saying gent-ass, but Classics students ought to make an effort.
I can't really multi quote that well so I simply shan't.

First off, yes I do think we ought to edge towards a scholarly standard. However it goes far beyond simply distinguishing vowel length....Rather than answer piece meal I think it sufficient to say you'll actually understand the problems here once you've started actually learning about historical and comparative linguistics.
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Sappho
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#1398
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#1398
(Original post by The Lyceum)
I can't really multi quote that well so I simply shan't.

First off, yes I do think we ought to edge towards a scholarly standard. However it goes far beyond simply distinguishing vowel length....Rather than answer piece meal I think it sufficient to say you'll actually understand the problems here once you've started actually learning about historical and comparative linguistics.
I see. I shall believe you for now. But I warn you, I'll get back to you

I was thinking about linguistics, but apparently they learn what the difference between the simple past and the present perfect is. No thanks Will have to way until later or a good book recommendation.
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The Lyceum
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#1399
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#1399
(Original post by Sappho)
I see. I shall believe you for now. But I warn you, I'll get back to you

I was thinking about linguistics, but apparently they learn what the difference between the simple past and the present perfect is. No thanks Will have to way until later or a good book recommendation.
Well, you're German, so there's lots there besides the English stuff. Essentially the problem I'm getting at is an /a/ is not always an /a/. There is a marked difference between a Greek short /a/ and an English one now. Now think of that for every phoneme. Then you have the difficulties of working out how all these phonemes work together in certain configurations etc. It's sort of difficult to explain, when I speak in Latin (which happens a stupid amount) I'm aware of a massive shift in my sound pallet, far from English and much closer to Portuguese and modern Greek but with other little additions Latin requires: nasalised m/n sounds at the end of cases (PIE inheritances in a way), trilled r's and so on and forth.

Vox Latina is still the basic reference book for Latin specifically, however I'm sure its something you'll be properly taught as part of your degree since working out how Latin sounded is actually a really important skillset to have.
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Sappho
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(Original post by The Lyceum)
Well, you're German, so there's lots there besides the English stuff. Essentially the problem I'm getting at is an /a/ is not always an /a/. There is a marked difference between a Greek short /a/ and an English one now. Now think of that for every phoneme. Then you have the difficulties of working out how all these phonemes work together in certain configurations etc. It's sort of difficult to explain, when I speak in Latin (which happens a stupid amount) I'm aware of a massive shift in my sound pallet, far from English and much closer to Portuguese and modern Greek but with other little additions Latin requires: nasalised m/n sounds at the end of cases (PIE inheritances in a way), trilled r's and so on and forth.

Vox Latina is still the basic reference book for Latin specifically, however I'm sure its something you'll be properly taught as part of your degree since working out how Latin sounded is actually a really important skillset to have.
Yeah, I know what you mean. You especially realise you do that when you say a German word in an English sentence works with any other language except you speak with an accent).

I don't really like trusting on teaching. Don' let your degree get in the way of your education etc.
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