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    (Original post by SHOO)
    Butty, when do you think Arsenal will be capable of winning the league?

    Also, how many arsenal players would you say shouldn't be in the team?

    Just curious
    When we have a more tactically capable manager or a team with more quality than the other teams in the league to make up for the poor setup in a lot of games

    From last seasons first 11 players that I think shouldn't be starting:
    Gibbs
    Arteta
    Cazorla
    Giroud
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    (Original post by baconbutty)
    Silva plays off the left in a 4-2-2-2 with far more defensive work rate than ozil I think most arsenal fans would take silva over ozil.

    Iniesta has been one of the best players in the world over the last few years and one of the greatest AMs of a time

    Di Maria again ridiculous defensive work rate and still maintains such a high level of assists, key passes etc also played deeper than ozil and played a portion of games on the wing which will skew his stats

    In 12/13 mata got 20 goals and 35 assists which is hard to look past. Pretty ridiculous and even in 11/12 id says there was little in it between them (these two are the most comparable of them all)
    There isn't a big enough difference in defensive stats to suggest that these players outperformed Ozil:

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    (Original post by pane123)
    There isn't a big enough difference in defensive stats to suggest that these players outperformed Ozil:

    That's because stats don't shop blocked passing avenues and the amount of times ozil doesn't track his runners.

    Also another aspect id consider is they are all big game players but ozil is awful in a lot of big games it was his biggest criticism at Real Madrid along with his defensive work rate and he's been absolutely terrible in arsenals big games and his only assists have been setting fernandinho up vs city and leading Liverpool breakaways at anfield
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    (Original post by baconbutty)
    That's because stats don't shop blocked passing avenues and the amount of times ozil doesn't track his runners.

    Also another aspect id consider is they are all big game players but ozil is awful in a lot of big games it was his biggest criticism at Real Madrid along with his defensive work rate and he's been absolutely terrible in arsenals big games and his only assists have been setting fernandinho up vs city and leading Liverpool breakaways at anfield
    I can't make any excuses for his first season at Arsenal, but I don't think there is any argument against Ozil being a top, top player. As attacking midfielders go, he operates at a truly elite level.

    With an efficient finisher in front of him, we should be expecting Ozil to be a total nightmare for opposition defenders. Do you know who's an extremely efficient finisher? Alexis Sanchez.

    Now that the striker issue is sorted out to a degree, we just have to worry about who will be playing at DM. With the right player in there, there is no reason Ozil can't become the player every Arsenal fan hoped he would be.
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    (Original post by pane123)
    I can't make any excuses for his first season at Arsenal, but I don't think there is any argument against Ozil being a top, top player. As attacking midfielders go, he operates at a truly elite level.

    With an efficient finisher in front of him, we should be expecting Ozil to be a total nightmare for opposition defenders. Do you know who's an extremely efficient finisher? Alexis Sanchez.

    Now that the striker issue is sorted out to a degree, we just have to worry about who will be playing at DM. With the right player in there, there is no reason Ozil can't become the player every Arsenal fan hoped he would be.
    At his best id rate him as the current best traditional number 10 but the game has evolved and his only relevant comparisons are to players like mata and ozil and fabregas at arsenal.

    I wouldn't call sanchez an extremely efficient finisher as well his best role is a free role behind the striker but we're more likely to see him in a creative role on the left. Most his goals have been tap ins and he's not been a success at barca for the most part partly due to having to sacrifice himself performing a similar role to Walcott which isn't playing to his strengths. So it could go either way for him here that's why I'm not really that excited about the transfer yet. He had a good season last year when barca focused more on wing play rather than having everything going through the middle to maximise the effectiveness of messi so lets just see how wenger uses him
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    (Original post by baconbutty)
    At his best id rate him as the current best traditional number 10 but the game has evolved and his only relevant comparisons are to players like mata and ozil and fabregas at arsenal.

    I wouldn't call sanchez an extremely efficient finisher as well his best role is a free role behind the striker but we're more likely to see him in a creative role on the left. Most his goals have been tap ins and he's not been a success at barca for the most part partly due to having to sacrifice himself performing a similar role to Walcott which isn't playing to his strengths. So it could go either way for him here that's why I'm not really that excited about the transfer yet
    There is no denying that Sanchez is an extremely efficient finisher, tap ins or not. Almost one third of his shots results in a goal. He can't play a traditional striker's role due to his height, but this hasn't hampered the likes of Aguero.
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    (Original post by baconbutty)
    At his best id rate him as the current best traditional number 10 but the game has evolved and his only relevant comparisons are to players like mata and ozil and fabregas at arsenal.

    I wouldn't call sanchez an extremely efficient finisher as well his best role is a free role behind the striker but we're more likely to see him in a creative role on the left. Most his goals have been tap ins and he's not been a success at barca for the most part partly due to having to sacrifice himself performing a similar role to Walcott which isn't playing to his strengths. So it could go either way for him here that's why I'm not really that excited about the transfer yet. He had a good season last year when barca focused more on wing play rather than having everything going through the middle to maximise the effectiveness of messi so lets just see how wenger uses him
    Sanchez isn't even that good a finisher, I remember him making sitter after sitter Gervinho style in his first 2 seasons at Barca.

    He had a good season last year so you can't argue too much about the signing, but he's not playing in his favoured role.
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    (Original post by jam278)
    Sanchez isn't even that good a finisher, I remember him making sitter after sitter Gervinho style in his first 2 seasons at Barca.

    He had a good season last year so you can't argue too much about the signing, but he's not playing in his favoured role.
    He is not leaving Barcelona because he's being played out of position is he? He's played on the wing at Barca, second striker at Udinese and sometimes as the main striker for Chile. Clearly comfortable in all three positions.

    Also, either of his first two seasons at Barcelona would probably be regarded better than Eden "future Ballon D'or winner" Hazard's first season at Chelsea, despite few injuries here and there.
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    http://metro.co.uk/2014/07/22/lionel...tract-4806425/

    Metro man :rofl:


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    So apparently we've signed Ospina for 3.5m on a four year deal. If true then it's very good business imo.

    Solid keeper and can fight for Schezny's spot if he doesn't pick up.

    3 signings down, only need 2 more yet have a whole 5 weeks left
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    They get paid to spout **** haha
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    (Original post by baconbutty)
    When we have a more tactically capable manager or a team with more quality than the other teams in the league to make up for the poor setup in a lot of games

    From last seasons first 11 players that I think shouldn't be starting:
    Gibbs
    Arteta
    Cazorla
    Giroud

    I agree with the 3 just not so sure about Gibbs
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    (Original post by little_tom)
    He is not leaving Barcelona because he's being played out of position is he? He's played on the wing at Barca, second striker at Udinese and sometimes as the main striker for Chile. Clearly comfortable in all three positions.

    Also, either of his first two seasons at Barcelona would probably be regarded better than Eden "future Ballon D'or winner" Hazard's first season at Chelsea, despite few injuries here and there.
    And? What is your point here. He's leaving Barca because they wanted to raise funds for Suarez. Somebody had to go and Pedro's barcelona connection meant it had to be Sanchez. He played right wing at Barca as well, not left wing and as somebody else said(CB91 I think) he was pretty trash there.

    Nice dig. But playing with Messi up front who you can create chances for and have chances created for you compared to Torres? If you think Sanchez is better than Hazard, that's what you think. But then since our AMs are supposedly our strongest position(bar defence) then I'm expecting you guys to win the title then as you have stronger AMs and as said so vehemently by Zurich defence as well.
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    Also was gonna put out Mata's beast season in 2012/13.

    Guys probably the best natural no.10 in the world personally, followed by Silva and Fabregas/Ozil. Iniesta is a different type of no.10 but is the superior player to those two as he'd probably put similar stats if he was the typical hole player.

    Silva and Ozil(his Madrid days when he's on form) are the best no.10s to watch play though.
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    (Original post by jam278)
    And? What is your point here. He's leaving Barca because they wanted to raise funds for Suarez. Somebody had to go and Pedro's barcelona connection meant it had to be Sanchez. He played right wing at Barca as well, not left wing and as somebody else said(CB91 I think) he was pretty trash there.

    Nice dig. But playing with Messi up front who you can create chances for and have chances created for you compared to Torres? If you think Sanchez is better than Hazard, that's what you think. But then since our AMs are supposedly our strongest position(bar defence) then I'm expecting you guys to win the title then as you have stronger AMs and as said so vehemently by Zurich defence as well.
    One of those things, put Koscielny/Mertesacker in a Mourinho defence and Terry/Cahill in a Wenger defence and you wouldnt see much difference in the outcomes, so it's really a case of systems rather than anything. Chelsea have significantly better full backs though and as it stands a very good DM when we dont so defensively you'd expect Chelsea to perform better. Then again if you play a bit more openly with Fabregas then you'll lose something defensively of course so who knows? Saying that I expect Debuchy to cost us a few goals over Sagna as well.

    Would be interesting if John Terry gets an injury or if age catches up to him, because Gary Cahill without him really isnt all that at all. At least Luiz is gone :laugh:
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    (Original post by Zürich)
    One of those things, put Koscielny/Mertesacker in a Mourinho defence and Terry/Cahill in a Wenger defence and you wouldnt see much difference in the outcomes, so it's really a case of systems rather than anything. Chelsea have significantly better full backs though and as it stands a very good DM when we dont so defensively you'd expect Chelsea to perform better.

    Would be interesting if John Terry gets an injury or if age catches up to him, because Gary Cahill without him really isnt all that at all.
    You were vehemently saying that they were better, not that they're around the same dependent on system. I reckon that would be the case too btw but you're backtracking.

    But yeah I'm pretty scared about life after Terry in defence. I'd be inclined to play Ivanovic there in Terry's absence but there'll still be a lack of leader presence. Zouma seems a little raw.
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    (Original post by jam278)
    And? What is your point here. He's leaving Barca because they wanted to raise funds for Suarez. Somebody had to go and Pedro's barcelona connection meant it had to be Sanchez. He played right wing at Barca as well, not left wing and as somebody else said(CB91 I think) he was pretty trash there.
    My point was that he has not stated any desire to play in a particular position. Wenger spoke to him about this already so obviously he was happy with it if he rejected Juventus and Liverpool to come here. What was the point in bringing that up, as if his performances will decline? :confused:



    Nice dig. But playing with Messi up front who you can create chances for and have chances created for you compared to Torres? If you think Sanchez is better than Hazard, that's what you think. But then since our AMs are supposedly our strongest position(bar defence) then I'm expecting you guys to win the title then as you have stronger AMs and as said so vehemently by Zurich defence as well.
    Two weeks ago you posted that Chelsea have the third/fourth best squad in Europe. Your flip-flopping and backpedaling is embarrassing.

    I don't need to explain why Alexis Sanchez is better than Eden Hazard, most football fans outside of Chelsea's bus terminal would take the former in a heart-beat. Quicker, stronger, better work-rate, tireless, better dribbler, better goal-score, better creator, and more versatile. Remember when Eden Hazard got his chance up front? Di Matteo lost his job. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by little_tom)
    My point was that he has not stated any desire to play in a particular position. Wenger spoke to him about this already so obviously he was happy with it if he rejected Juventus and Liverpool to come here. What was the point in bringing that up, as if his performances will decline? :confused:
    What does that point have to do with him potentially not doing well at LW? Having a desire to play in a position doesn't mean you'll be good at it? E.g. Walcott at striker, he doesn't fit Arsenal there as he struggles in hold up play and he doesn't have the tight ball control needed to get the best out of the AMs. He's there as an option to stop counters but that doesn't mean he's good at ST.

    Two weeks ago you posted that Chelsea have the third/fourth best squad in Europe. Your flip-flopping and backpedaling is embarrassing.

    I don't need to explain why Alexis Sanchez is better than Eden Hazard, most football fans outside of Chelsea's bus terminal would taken the former in a heart-beat. Quicker, better dribbler, better goal-score, and more versatile. Remember when Eden Hazard got his chance up front? Di Matteo lost his job. :rolleyes:
    We have the 4th best squad in europe. However note I said europe, I'm not talking about the league. So calling this backpedalling is embarrassing. I think we'll do well in the CL. Possibly get to the final depending on who we face. But we don't have the squad for the league. We have players capable of a style that makes us hard to beat, which is different from having a style that makes it easy for us to beat others. If you don't understand that simple fact then stop posting to me and put me on ignore.

    Same way I said Mata=Ozil and got proven right, you'll get proven right here. Anyway just wait and see how this happens.
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    (Original post by jam278)
    You were vehemently saying that they were better, not that they're around the same dependent on system. I reckon that would be the case too btw but you're backtracking.

    But yeah I'm pretty scared about life after Terry in defence. I'd be inclined to play Ivanovic there in Terry's absence but there'll still be a lack of leader presence. Zouma seems a little raw.
    Taken in isolation, I do think they're better as a pair, would be something like 1)JT 2)Kosc 3)Mert 4)Cahill to me but then JT had an exceptional season of course which he may or may not replicate at his age. As I recall the main difference was on whether Chelsea defended better because of the team's set up rather than fundamental quality differences? I mean, I can recall a few away games last season when we sat deep Mourinho style and Kosc/Mert were just terrific. Newcastle , Spurs , BVB etc. At times they get exposed, but it's just harder to be a CB at Arsenal typically when you have so help up the field so that will happen to any CB in the world.

    JT makes other defenders play well around him no doubt. Counting the days till he retires :laugh:
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    (Original post by Zürich)
    I do think they're better as a pair, would be something like 1)JT 2)Kosc 3)Mert 4)Cahill to me but then JT had an exceptional season of course which he may or may not replicate at his age. As I recall the main difference was on whether Chelsea defended better because of the team's set up rather than fundamental quality differences? I mean, I can recall a few away games last season when we sat deep Mourinho style when Kosc/Mert were just terrific. Newcastle , Spurs , BVB etc. It's just harder to be a CB at Arsenal typically when you have so help up the field.

    JT makes other defenders play well around him no doubt. Counting the days till he retires :laugh:
    I can't disagree with that.

    Personally think that Terry wasn't helped in 2012 with AVB's tactics.

    Terry got injured under Di Matteo in the 12/13 season and we had both Mikel and Ramires pushing forward in a very attacking style of play under Di Matteo(when we got Hazard and Oscar, not our CL win). He was out of favour under Benitez and it's very hard for a defender to play excellently when he's been in and out of the side. I'd give you an example. Rafael Varane had a shaky game in the CL final, he miskicked a ball he could have easily just cleared to the throw in, he concedes a corner and Atlético score. That game was almost decided due to Varane conceding a corner he shouldn't have done.

    So I believe Terry always had the ability, just that he didn't get a run of games, or played with a terrible team in front of him. Similar to Arsenal around 2010-12.
 
 
 
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