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    Qassam are targeting the Israeli Air base, Ansrim through rocket attacks...

    Some footage of current conflict was uploaded today which purports to show the killing of an "Israeli special unit":

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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Let's look at how NATO performs:
































    And this is all in Serbia alone.


    Imagine what's happened in 13 years of war in Afghanistan.
    I'm sorry to break it to you, but the whole "we are forced to blow hundreds of innocent civilians including countless children to pieces as it's the only way to defend ourselves, and has been for the last 60 years" is an argument that has never, and will never hold up, no matter how much people like you continue to spew it
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    (Original post by ultimates)
    So that being hamas using civilians as meat shields then?
    So you expect a people who are forced from their homes and have their land stolen from them, eventually forced into a refugee camp with an area of only 25miles x 3.7-7.5miles, to simply either not fight back against the oppresive Israeli government which seeks to constantly push their borders, or do you simply expect the Palestinians fighting against Israel to fight from one specific spot where they can be easily blown up the large array of munitons and tools that Israelis hold - Apache helipters, drones, F16's, tanks, IFV's, precision snipers.

    It is a ridiculous notion. However, what seems more ridiculous is for the Israelis boastful claims of only hitting targets with the highest precision, and yet still they commit war crimes against civilians, as they also bomb homes & hospitals on the "suspicion" that weapons may have been stored there
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    They need a home land as much as they next guy, i.e. they don't. They just need to learn how to get on with people. And what are these occasions of becoming "nearly extinct" because I've never heard of them, holocaust got no where near.
    They do need to learn how to get on with people yeah.

    Have you ever read the book of Esther? It's an ancient historic document of the history of the Jews during the Persian Empire. They were almost genocided in that time.

    The Holocaust got pretty close. I wonder what would have happened had the USA not gotten involved?

    The Inquisitions and Crusades also got close. The Inquisitions forced Jewish conversions to 'Christianity' and then persecuted those they suspected as not being genuine. (Forced conversions are never genuine.) The Crusaders horribly killed Muslims and Jews and Christians. There's a reason why Jewish people in that time preferred Muslim rule to 'Christian'.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    You condone collective punishment from the Israeli's but not from HAMAS.

    Pure hypocrisy...
    What Hamas are doing is not collective punishment, but worse - it is a feeble attempt to destroy Israel. The targets are Israeli civilians.

    Show me an example of Israel targeting civilians for the sake of killing civilians, and I will condemn them and call for them to be tried for war crimes. I have already condemned certain things that the Israelis have done, such as the use of white phosphorus in 2009.

    Yes, the result of the conflict is collective punishment, but the people responsible for it are Hamas.
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    (Original post by gideon123)
    i am an orthadox jew and i do support zionism and no the torah does not forbid a jewish state...its just the different ways of interpreting the torah according to different sects of judaism
    The torah teaches do not steal and do not murder yet you have illegally occupied and stolen the Palestinians land and murdered thousands of innocent civilians
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    (Original post by Agapelove)
    The Muslims basically fought against the Byzantians at that time. Rome had fought against the Jews and destroyed Jerusalem around 70 AD. Most of the surviving Jews (the Romans killed many Jews), fled to other areas.
    So they didn't fight against the Jews for Palestine? Why are you then bringing it up? It is irrelevant.

    Again, one of the reasons why most of the Jewish leaders did not accept Jesus (Yeshua/Isa) was because he did not fight and win against the Roman oppressors of Israel (Judea). Instead, he preached love for one's enemies. It takes a huge leap of faith to love one's enemies, hmm? It also takes God's help, because people naturally hate those who hate them.
    Everyone loves everyone. That is the default but something must have been done against someone else in order to make the level of love depreciate into hate.

    Due to the recent Nazi holocaust, Jewish people desperately wanted their homeland back. That is where the Jews come in again, and where Israel has been regenerated/re birthed, as Jewish prophecy foretold.
    "Homeland"? Whose "homeland"?

    10 million people out of 7 billion (0.14%) believe that Palestine is a "homeland for Jews".

    If we were to extrapolate this reasoning, then 84.4% of the world should be able to re-claim Africa as their "homeland"...
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    What Hamas are doing is not collective punishment, but worse - it is a feeble attempt to destroy Israel. The targets are Israeli civilians.

    Show me an example of Israel targeting civilians for the sake of killing civilians, and I will condemn them and call for them to be tried for war crimes. I have already condemned certain things that the Israelis have done, such as the use of white phosphorus in 2009.

    Yes, the result of the conflict is collective punishment, but the people responsible for it are Hamas.
    You haven't come across the israelis tageting civilians? U been living under a rock, m8? How about the kids that were killed while they played on the beach? How about that new video which shows a civilian being shot by a sniper? There's all sorts.

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    Maybe if Hamas didn't hide rockets in schools and otehr densly populated areas, this wouldn't happen so much.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    What Hamas are doing is not collective punishment, but worse - it is a feeble attempt to destroy Israel. The targets are Israeli civilians.
    97% of those killed by HAMAS have been soldiers as confirmed by the IDF.

    Show me an example of Israel targeting civilians for the sake of killing civilians, and I will condemn them and call for them to be tried for war crimes. I have already condemned certain things that the Israelis have done, such as the use of white phosphorus in 2009.
    Which means you are in support of disproportionate measures?

    Yes, the result of the conflict is collective punishment, but the people responsible for it are Hamas.
    It could be argued that HAMAS's doesn't target civilians because they, like Israel, practice collective punishment. HAMAS holds the Israeli public liable for the actions of Israel just like Israel holds HAMAS responsible for the actions of Palestinians.

    I've told you before, you are attempting to do some kind of double standards which just exposes your hypocrisy.
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    The Jewish people have done very well in recent years, but that in itself doesn't give Israel any justification to do anything (you can't say it's Ok for you to **** your neighbour's wife and steal his dog, because you're smarter than he is). However the reason why Israel in my mind is the more innocent party is because it is just defending itself from hostile neighbours. Everyday I see some moron saying how 600 Palestinians have died in this recent escalation but less than 100 Israelis have been killed, yet they fail to mention how Hamas refuses to sign up to a ceasefire, just when Israel was willing to do so; sure Israeli weapons are more dangerous, leading to a higher death toll for the Palestinians, but being militarily stronger, does not make a side morally any worse.
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    (Original post by MASTER265)
    If Gaza stopped rocket fire the attacks will cease to exist and so Hamas has the defining move which could save lives yet they value their egotistical and political motives over anything else. If anyone doubts Hamas is a terrorist organisation they are idiots and so I side with Israel because terrorists such as these are sick and need to be eradicated by any means possible.
    If the Israeli occupation of Palestine didn't take place then there would be no need for the Palestine people and Hamas to do what they do. They are the ones trying to defend the land they live on which has been getting ever smaller due to Israel's motives. Israel has been spreading like a virus growing larger and due to having backing can do so. This has even led to neighbouring countries attacking Israel. Israel has basically said accept our offers or face option b which is being wiped out. Palestine don't want to be dictated to and therefore are going to fight back. Now Israel is trying to play the victim card saying its self defence when in fact it has been the main catalyst for such going ons for decades but refuses to admit such. As the Venezuelans have said its effectively genocide of the Palestinian people and considering what happened to the Jewish people in WW2 is hypocritical and disgusting. Its no different from the bully becoming the bully to pick on another victim.

    You must also not forget around 83% of the deaths were militant fighters so not an all bad figure.
    Wrong. Most deaths are civilians.

    (Original post by toonervoustotalk)
    Israel because they want ceasefire bit the Hamas do not agree.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    What utter nonsense. Israel have basically said do as we say and accept our terms or we will force you to do it. Why should the Palestinian people accept being bullied out of their homeland so Israel can occupy more?


    (Original post by presidential_)
    israels idea of a ceasefire
    - do whatever we say
    - we control your borders
    - no one can leave
    - you can't receive any aid
    This basically.

    ----

    What Israel has done is nothing short of disgusting. Its the equivalent of me building a house on your land of 2000sqm and then taking 50sqm of it and then taking 400sqm of it and then as I swallow up most of your land through violence over the years I tell you to either leave or have your house blown to pieces and I'll take your 2000sqm of land. Are you telling me in this situation the person who actually owns the land doesn't have a right to defend it in the first instance?

    This has been planned for decades and I quote:

    in 1937, which included a Jewish state in part of Palestine, Ben-Gurion told the twentieth Zionist Congress, "The Jewish state now being offered to us is not the Zionist objective. [...] But it can serve as a decisive stage along the path to greater Zionist implementation. It will consolidate in Palestine, within the shortest possible time, the real Jewish force, which will lead us to our historic goal.[27] In a discussion in the Jewish Agency he said that he wanted a Jewish-Arab agreement "on the assumption that after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of the state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine."[28]
    Just because Jews faced atrocities in Europe at the hands of Nazi Germany it does not make it okay for them to flee to Palestine, establish a secular state and slowly and slowly as more Jewish people move there which happened in the 40's and 50's move on to take more land of the Palestine people.

    Two wrongs do not make a right.

    So many frigging hypocrites on here. If Muslims come here fleeing Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran and Syria and set up an Islamic state in Britain and then it kept growing and they took the land of the British people you'd be outraged and claiming it was wrong. So please tell me how it is okay for Israel to do such a thing?

    After all of that you think its nice of the Israeli people to want to ceasefire and so forth? Its like someone ****ing your wife, taking your house but then saying take the car to drive off in. Why should the Palestinians accept such a disgusting deal after all of what their people have been put through?

    What they're fighting for now isn't just about land - its about the occupation of their homes, the annexing which pushed many of their relatives and loved ones into refugee status and the murdering of their people.

    Quite frankly anyone who sides with Israel is either ignorant of pre WW2 going ons or straight up inhumane and vile.

    I support the people of Palestine all the way. I have no problems with Jews settling around the world and enjoying their life but to try and set up a secular state in Palestine at the expense of their people and annex land over years is wrong and if it happened in any of our countries we would be disgusted. Don't ignore it just because it's happening miles away from your close knit western home. This is real life. The Palestinian people need humane support.
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    Delta Airlines have cancelled all flights to Israel citing the unstable security situation.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    So they didn't fight against the Jews for Palestine? Why are you then bringing it up? It is irrelevant.
    It is relevant because of the Muslim influence on Palestine today. Islam considers Jerusalem their 3rd holy city, correct? Even though Islam already has 2 (Mecca and Medina in Arabia), they stole Jerusalem from Judaism, and they don't want to give Jerusalem back to Judaism, now do they?
    Everyone loves everyone. That is the default but something must have been done against someone else in order to make the level of love depreciate into hate.
    Actually, some people hate due to racism. Racism doesn't need something being done against someone else to exist.

    Sadly, when the Jewish survivors of the holocaust began to immigrate in mass to Palestine, the Palestinians did not welcome them as fellow descendants of Abraham. Instead, they fought against them.While not excusing the Israelis, after having been persecuted by Europeans, they started to fight back against the Palestinians and against the English who controlled Palestine at that time.

    It is wrong for the Israelis to attack and kill the Palestinians. It is also wrong for the Palestinians to try to attack the Israelis with their rockets and stones. Both sides should learn to live peaceably with each other.



    "Homeland"? Whose "homeland"?

    10 million people out of 7 billion (0.14%) believe that Palestine is a "homeland for Jews".

    If we were to extrapolate this reasoning, then 84.4% of the world should be able to re-claim Africa as their "homeland"...

    If you read the Jewish prophets in the Tanakh, the land in question is the land G-d gave to the Jewish people. Those who don't care for what the Jewish Scriptures say however are not going to agree with the Jewish Scriptures.

    For example:
    (I boldened some of the passage below.)

    Ezekiel 37
    37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

    37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

    37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
    37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
    37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
    37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. '
    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...Ezekiel37.html


    Some Christians, including me, believe that God's sanctuary in the midst of them is when Jesus Christ returns.
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    (Original post by azilani191)
    The torah teaches do not steal and do not murder yet you have illegally occupied and stolen the Palestinians land and murdered thousands of innocent civilians
    Firstly, you don't know he has done anything at all

    I actually do think that Israel's existence probably does contradict the Jewish religion but this aside, outside the West Bank and Gaza the physical land occupied by Israel is Israel's you have no way of arguing it is stolen and secondly whilst it's true innocent Palestinians have died, the Arab states only have themselves to blame for constantly either declaring all out war on Israel or trying to fight it by proxy, by arming and encouraging Hamas.
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    I take it he was hiding rockets as well Tariq Khdeir
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    (Original post by Sanctimonious)
    If the Israeli occupation of Palestine didn't take place then there would be no need for the Palestine people and Hamas to do what they do. They are the ones trying to defend the land they live on which has been getting ever smaller due to Israel's motives. Israel has been spreading like a virus growing larger and due to having backing can do so. This has even led to neighbouring countries attacking Israel. Israel has basically said accept our offers or face option b which is being wiped out. Palestine don't want to be dictated to and therefore are going to fight back. Now Israel is trying to play the victim card saying its self defence when in fact it has been the main catalyst for such going ons for decades but refuses to admit such. As the Venezuelans have said its effectively genocide of the Palestinian people and considering what happened to the Jewish people in WW2 is hypocritical and disgusting. Its no different from the bully becoming the bully to pick on another victim.


    Wrong. Most deaths are civilians.



    What utter nonsense. Israel have basically said do as we say and accept our terms or we will force you to do it. Why should the Palestinian people accept being bullied out of their homeland so Israel can occupy more?



    This basically.

    ----

    What Israel has done is nothing short of disgusting. Its the equivalent of me building a house on your land of 2000sqm and then taking 50sqm of it and then taking 400sqm of it and then as I swallow up most of your land through violence over the years I tell you to either leave or have your house blown to pieces and I'll take your 2000sqm of land. Are you telling me in this situation the person who actually owns the land doesn't have a right to defend it in the first instance?

    This has been planned for decades and I quote:



    Just because Jews faced atrocities in Europe at the hands of Nazi Germany it does not make it okay for them to flee to Palestine, establish a secular state and slowly and slowly as more Jewish people move there which happened in the 40's and 50's move on to take more land of the Palestine people.

    Two wrongs do not make a right.

    So many frigging hypocrites on here. If Muslims come here fleeing Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran and Syria and set up an Islamic state in Britain and then it kept growing and they took the land of the British people you'd be outraged and claiming it was wrong. So please tell me how it is okay for Israel to do such a thing?

    After all of that you think its nice of the Israeli people to want to ceasefire and so forth? Its like someone ****ing your wife, taking your house but then saying take the car to drive off in. Why should the Palestinians accept such a disgusting deal after all of what their people have been put through?

    What they're fighting for now isn't just about land - its about the occupation of their homes, the annexing which pushed many of their relatives and loved ones into refugee status and the murdering of their people.

    Quite frankly anyone who sides with Israel is either ignorant of pre WW2 going ons or straight up inhumane and vile.

    I support the people of Palestine all the way. I have no problems with Jews settling around the world and enjoying their life but to try and set up a secular state in Palestine at the expense of their people and annex land over years is wrong and if it happened in any of our countries we would be disgusted. Don't ignore it just because it's happening miles away from your close knit western home. This is real life. The Palestinian people need humane support.
    10/10 post
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    (Original post by Fact)
    It's not self-defence when it's against legitimate self-defence. Hamas was founded during the intifada against the Israeli occupation. They didn't wake up one morning and decide they want to ruin Israeli lives. The actions of Hamas are a direct reflection of the suffering Israelis have inflicted on Palestinians since its inception.
    Israel withdrew from Gaza in almost a decade ago. There is no 'occupation'. By your own explanation the actions of Hamas would not be not self-defence but retribution.

    (Original post by Fact)
    No. The current conflict started when Zionists from the around world convened maliciously to cause a suffering against an innocent and unsuspecting people. I'm sure it gives you a sense of moral legitimacy to frame this recent conflict conveniently in a specific time scope when again, reality is not in congruence with it. Israelis kidnap Palestinian children almost as a past-time yet the kidnapping of 3 teenagers (whose kidnapping I don't want to detract any rightful grief from) is more important to you?
    There has to be a time-scope, otherwise the UK might aswell invade Italy in retalitation for the Roman conquest.
    Before the kidnappings there was relative peace. Now there is conflict. Why did the conflict start- Hamas kidnapped and killed three Israelis. Pretty simple.

    (Original post by Fact)
    You expect the families of those children to not want to exact any revenge? Palestinian resistance movements have a history of kidnapping Israelis with the intent of trading them for the many Palestinians locked up and left to rot in Israeli's many prisons. Not that I condone or support kidnapping but this is the reality of being occupied.
    Make you mind up, are we discussing international law, English criminal law, or the harsh reality of actual war? Because you keep floating between each one to suit yourself.
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    (Original post by Politricks)
    I was watching the BBC coverage of Gaza a couple of nights ago and I don't believe that there was a strong bias in favour of Israel at all. For example, they mentioned that the Israeli death toll was not comparable to the Palestinian one.

    I remember there was a psychology experiment where they showed the same news clip to pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli students. The pro-Palestinians said that the news coverage was biased in favour of Israel, and the pro-Israelis said that it was biased in favour of the Palestinians.
    Lol, good post

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_media_effect

    I always try to self-examine to see if I am a victim of this, as someone who thinks that Israel is (by quite a way) the more innocent party and I wonder if by putting journalists in front of targets which are about to be hit by Israel gives this impression that Israel is the bully.

    These targets usually look like homes, but could very plausibly contain weapons and Israel almost certainly tipped off civilian owners which is never mentioned in any depth, in Western Europe people are not used to seeing shellfire so it probably seems scary and plays on people's emotions. The BBC is clearly not Zionist or run by Zionists, it's not really Muslim either, just seems to be run by typical prissy upper middle class White liberals, who think it's cool to spout crap about how the oppressed have become the oppressors and present Palestine as the new Tibet.
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    (Original post by bertstare)
    I'm sorry to break it to you, but the whole "we are forced to blow hundreds of innocent civilians including countless children to pieces as it's the only way to defend ourselves, and has been for the last 60 years" is an argument that has never, and will never hold up, no matter how much people like you continue to spew it
    I think you're missing the point - probably deliberately.

    'people' like you deride Israel for their military action. You reserve your harshest condemnation for Israel. Indeed the likes of the BBC does too.

    Israeli spokesman are routinely treated like dirt by Hamas' friend Jon Snow or the BBC crew and accused of all sorts.

    What I'm doing, is pointing out your hypocrisy and that of the media.

    Did we ever hear of "disproportionate force" with regards to NATO hitting Serbia?

    Did we ever hear of "disproportionate force" when NATO took on cave dwellers in Afghanistan?

    Did we ever have the same uproar when NATO bombed hospitals and schools and refugees etc?

    Of course not. THOSE are "mistakes", when Israel does it, it's WAR CRIMES/ETHNIC CLEANSING/GENOCIDE.

    You see the difference?

    So when Israelis wonder why THEY are treated to a different standard than everyone else in the world, there's only one conclusion, and that's out and out bigotry.
 
 
 
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