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    (Original post by Acidy)
    I refuse to negotiate debates with two types of people:

    - Terrorists
    - TSR users who use profanity to harbour attention.
    You just mad because you have little understanding of the situation. Id recommend Noam Chomsky or Illan Pappe if you seriously wish to educate yourself.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Given that an estimated 1/6 of the world population at the time was Jewish, I'm slightly skeptical that, supposing the story is historically accurate, that it would have been suceesful enough to lead to the complete genocide of the Jews.
    Never underestimate the horrible power of hatred.

    Thankfully, the power of love is much better than the power of hatred.

    If not for intervention, then yes the extinction of the Jewish people at that time would have been possible.

    It got nowhere near close, across the whole of Europe (that was affected) it was only 67% effective, so even within Nazi occupied Europe there were still ~3m Jews left post war, and obviously plenty more in the rest of the world
    67% percent is a big deal. If 67% of English people were killed, would that not be considered a big deal? More Jewish people would have died if not for the efforts of the English and the Americans to stop Hitler, or do you disagree?

    If Hitler had been successful in his desire to control the world, the Jewish people would have eventually been completely annihilated.

    From what I can find, in both cases its in low enough numbers localised enough to have not been a threat to the global population as a whole. It seems to be as much genocide against the Jews as Israel is performing against Gaza, kill them were you can but not actively trying to wipe them out.
    It is wrong for Israel to attack and kill people in Gaza. From what my Jewish friends have explained to me, Israel is attacking rockets, which are located where people live. Personally, I believe Israel should not be attacking, but I do have to acknowledge the fear that Israel has that the Iron Dome could be overwhelmed, since Hamas loves to throw rockets into Israel...

    Do you think that if the Iron Dome was not there, that the Palestinians would have no problem killing the Jews in Israel?
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    (Original post by Agapelove)
    Why didn't the Ottoman Empire give the Palestinians their own country? Just curious.
    In an empire, you crush borders, not put them up.

    Palestine can have a state/country too. The only issue is they don't want an Israel state; they in general don't love the Jewish people. I thought the Arabs and the Jews are distant relatives... both descendants of Abraham? Why can't they get along? Why didn't the descendants of Abraham (through Ishmael) living in Palestine welcome the refugees, who are also descendants of Abraham (though Isaac and Jacob (Israel)?

    Is it true that most people nowadays who identify as Arabs are not in fact descendants of Abraham?
    They did.

    The Jews conquered the Canaanites. While I do not appreciate them killing the Canaanites, that did happen. Arabs as well conquered other people groups, killing other people. English as well...
    So the land should be given back to the descendants of the Canaanites?

    God knows if there is 'pure' Israeli blood much better than mere mortals do.
    We have advanced in our techniques.

    That is sad and wrong. That needs to change, but Arabs or Palestinians throwing rockets into Israel doesn't help that situation, does it? Even uneducated little boys throwing rocks at Israeli soldiers doesn't help anything; it just shows an extreme hostility.

    In the USA, if a boy threw rocks at a police officer, he'd be in big trouble, no matter his ethnicity. Why don't the Arabs/Palestinians treat the Jewish people kindly? Martin Luther King Jr. experienced persecution for his standing up to inequality in the USA. However, he taught and showed nonviolence. If he had used violence, a lot of bloodshed would have happened and human civil rights would have suffered greatly. His use of nonviolence and love shamed 'white' people into understanding that they are not superior to people of other skin colors/ethnicities.


    Much of the prophecies concerning Israel in the Tanakh were not well-received by some Jewish people. It's just a fact. That's one reason why many do not accept Jesus (Yeshua/Isa) as the Messiah; they don't think that Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 are about Jesus, for example.
    You really are pushing the Jesus boat a lot in this discussion.

    I personally think the Muslims had no right to conquer Palestine from the Byzantine Empire, but they did. I also personally think that the Roman Empire had no right to destroy Jerusalem (and Israel/Judea) but they did.
    What you think is irrelevant.

    The Jewish people originally immigrated to the land peacefully, buying land from the UK. Once the Palestinians started fighting their immigration, they did sadly react with violence instead of with love and kindness. This is wrong. If they had obeyed Jesus/Yeshua/Isa' commands to love their enemies (Matthew 5:44; Luke 6:27-37), then I think there would be peace today.
    Can I ask which country you are from?

    Anyways, why can't the Palestinians and the Jewish people live together in peace? Why can't the Jewish people have their one Jewish state? Arabs have many Arab states. I know Islam is hostile towards Jews who don't accept Muhammad's claims, but I do think Islam should give the only holy city of Judaism (Jerusalem) back to Judaism. Islam already has Mecca and Medina. The Arabs already have their Arab states. Why hate the one Jewish state so fiercely? Is Judaism and a Jewish Israel in the midst of Muslim-dominated lands a threat to Islam?
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    (Original post by Sam98x)
    Okay i got past the first paragraph and stopped reading. I'm a muslim myself if this helps.
    Firstly, this war is between ZIONISTS AND MUSLIMS.
    If you can even call this **** a war?
    It has nothing to do with the jewish, as many of them support Palestine. So already your ''prespective'' is faulty and i havent bothered to read further.
    Secondly, from what ive read you've mentioned the muslim population VS the jewish population.
    ISLAM allows non muslims to convert into their religion. It believes in accepting anyone.
    Whereas JUDAISM does not allow anyone who is non jewish to convert into their religion.
    Practising Jews strictly marry jews in order to increase their population and keep it 'pure'.
    If the first opening sentences are that faulty i cant even bothered to read the rest.
    And excuse me if i sound like a ***** but this entire conflict that has been going on for 66 years is getting out of hand now that more people. If your american that would explain your brainwashed ideas as USA is practically pro israel and supply it with its military needs.
    As i havent read your entire passage fully i dont know if youve mentioned the death toll?
    Go research how many palestinians that have been killed compared to the number of israelians. And while your at it, go watch what they do to little children and innocent women. Sick pathetic aresholes who regard themselves as soldiers. ****s sake im so pissed.
    You're judging my post for being "faulty" yet your logic is based on a half-hearted attempt at reading one paragraph. Nice.

    "Keep it pure" are you some sort of Neo-Nazi moron? You can enter Judaism through conversion from any religion. Furthermore the death toll boils down to whether or not your Hamas liberators accept a cease-fire.. Or have you not 'bothered' to read about that?
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    So they didn't fight against the Jews for Palestine? Why are you then bringing it up? It is irrelevant.
    the arabs fought the romans for jerusalem and won it. the turks fought the arabs for it and won, the britsh fought the turks for it and won.
    now the israelis fight the arabs for it and won- so whats your reason for being *****y about it, dont be a sore loser . if the arabs were meant to still have jerusalem they wouldnt have lost so many battles for it would they:confused:
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    (Original post by Straw-man666)
    You haven't come across the israelis tageting civilians? U been living under a rock, m8? How about the kids that were killed while they played on the beach? How about that new video which shows a civilian being shot by a sniper? There's all sorts.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    If Israel had an attitude even remotely resembling that of Hamas, there would no longer be any Gazans left alive. If you gave Hamas the weapons which Israel possesses, Israel would be destroyed very quickly.

    As for the killing of four children, if it was done deliberately than I would be in favour of punishing the soldier who did it to the maximum degree.
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    (Original post by PaulPaulPaul)
    You just mad because you have little understanding of the situation. Id recommend Noam Chomsky or Illan Pappe if you seriously wish to educate yourself.
    Yep. You've got me there.

    I wouldn't recommend Al-Jazeera if you do.
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    the arabs fought the romans for jerusalem and won it. the turks fought the arabs for it and won, the britsh fought the turks for it and won.
    now the israelis fight the arabs for it and won- so whats your reason for being *****y about it, dont be a sore loser . if the arabs were meant to still have jerusalem they wouldnt have lost so many battles for it would they:confused:
    So who fought the British?
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    (Original post by Agapelove)
    Never underestimate the horrible power of hatred.

    Thankfully, the power of love is much better than the power of hatred.

    If not for intervention, then yes the extinction of the Jewish people at that time would have been possible.
    If you constitute a member of a group that makes up 1/6 of the world population would you just let yourself get wiped out instead of fighting back? thought so.

    67% percent is a big deal. If 67% of English people were killed, would that not be considered a big deal? More Jewish people would have died if not for the efforts of the English and the Americans to stop Hitler, or do you disagree?
    Yes, more would have, and yes, 67% is a lot, but it still leaves 33%, which is in the region of 3m, and the however many million in the rest of Europe and the world. Given the diplomatic relations intervention from UK and France was inevitable, but the war was won by attacking Russia, not by the Americans joining, that's a different thread though.

    If Hitler had been successful in his desire to control the world, the Jewish people would have eventually been completely annihilated.
    Last I checked, there was no desire for world domination, so the eventuality was still improbable.

    It is wrong for Israel to attack and kill people in Gaza. From what my Jewish friends have explained to me, Israel is attacking rockets, which are located where people live. Personally, I believe Israel should not be attacking, but I do have to acknowledge the fear that Israel has that the Iron Dome could be overwhelmed, since Hamas loves to throw rockets into Israel...
    They seem rather good at missing their targets then, because it would seem that there are missiles in thousands of homes, including those that have nothing to do with Hamas. For ID to be overwhelmed would likely take a large, coordinated attack, the only way to guarantee it is to fire enough missiles that pose a threat to inhabited areas in a short enough time that ID runs out of missiles.

    Do you think that if the Iron Dome was not there, that the Palestinians would have no problem killing the Jews in Israel?
    We know full well what the answer to that is, given Iron Dome only came along 3 years ago and the rockets were being fired well before that.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    97% of those killed by HAMAS have been soldiers as confirmed by the IDF.
    I'm talking about their rocket fire. They fire rockets into civilian areas with the purpose of killing civilians. It is ineffective, due to the iron dome and a good alert system coupled with ample bomb shelters, but still, their intention is to kill civilians. They probably know that it is ineffective, and are doing it cynically with the intention of provoking Israel to attack.

    Which means you are in support of disproportionate measures?
    Not at all. I am in favour of measures which are required to defeat Hamas. Whether or not the current measures are required, I don't know. The death of every civilian in war is a tragedy. But you should not pick your side simplistically based on who receives the most deaths. If you did that, you'd end up supporting Nazi Germany against Britain.

    It could be argued that HAMAS's doesn't target civilians because they, like Israel, practice collective punishment. HAMAS holds the Israeli public liable for the actions of Israel just like Israel holds HAMAS responsible for the actions of Palestinians.

    I've told you before, you are attempting to do some kind of double standards which just exposes your hypocrisy.
    The trouble is, I don't support Hamas' grievances. To appease their grievances would mean destroying Israel and setting up an Islamic state. I sympathise with Palestinians who aren't members of Hamas or other fascist movements, and they do have a political case to make, but not against Israel - against the fascist Palestinian leadership.

    In other words, what you regard as my hypocrisy is simply my differing opinion of which side to support based on the principles they believe in.

    Also, why do you keep putting the word Hamas in upper case?
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    So who fought the British?
    well, the naziis i suppose. if hitler had won there was it seems some pact in place in principle between the arabs and nazis for palestine, in exchange for oil etc.

    but the british and allied forces kicked the naziis (and then i suppose the arabs) ass. even so they were magnanamous in victory i thought, in deciding to give the arabs various differnt states with their holy city in saudi arabia, and the jews their own state in the lands of palestine. i suppose in the basis that the jews had longer ties to palestine than the arabs ever did.

    what has gone on since then has simply been a repercussion of israel being superior to the muslim world, i would have thought arabs would be able to have appreciate that fact, seeing as they were able to seize palestine orignally being superior to the then collapsing roman armies, now the jews are superior to the arabs and so are in control. but no - why so *****y about this?
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    Translated instructions from the internationally proscribed terrorist group - Hamas.

    "..When speaking to an Arab friend, start with the number of martyrs. When speaking to a Western friend, start with the number of wounded and dead. Be sure to humanize the Palestinian suffering. Try to paint a picture of the suffering of the civilians in Gaza and the West Bank, during the occupation's operations and its bombings of cities and villages..."
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Unfortunately with the advent of Jesus, secularism had yet to be invented, and in fact is only a relatively recent concept. America (for example) is a secular country (despite what we hear in the media), but only because its founders were not Christians - they were deists and men of the enlightenment. I'm much more grateful to live post-Western enlightenment than post-Jesus.
    Granted. However, some (though not all) of American's founders were Christians. I do think that Jesus' teachings are one of the reasons for the enlightenment, after people began to be able to read the Bible in their native language for themselves.

    I somehow doubt that Jesus was the first person to have pacifist or liberal ideas, he was just very vocal about them (which is what got him executed).
    The pacifist ideas are not what got Jesus executed. What got him in trouble with the Jewish leaders was his claim to be the son of God, which they considered to be blasphemy against Judaism.
    Also I prefer to judge ideas than to judge people, and I see Moses' ideas as written down in the old testament, as quite similar to those of the modern day jihad (ISIS and Boko Haram, for example, imposing iron age law and taking sex slaves, no different to the commands of Moses).
    That's one reason why Christians strive to follow Jesus' teachings instead of Moses'.
    I always thought Christians basically were "Jews for Jesus", since the Jews are still waiting for their messiah while Christians believe Jesus is the messiah. I couldn't argue against following Jesus' teachings to love more, but to do so while calling myself Christian would feel like a betrayal of principle. For me the Christian label is associated more with (at best) fantasy and (at worst) violent oppression, including slavery. I think that if Jesus were alive today, he wouldn't want to be associated with Christianity for these reasons.
    Jesus Christ taught the golden rule, to do to others as you would have them do to you (Luke 6:31). Slavery is not doing to others as you would have them do to you. For example, I do not want to be enslaved. Hence, I will not enslave anybody else. Sadly, many people who identified/identify themselves as Christians do not obey Jesus' commands, including the Golden Rule. Jesus said that if you love him, you will obey him. Not everyone who calls himself or herself a Christian obeys Jesus. I am guilty of not obeying Jesus sometimes as well. I repent and ask God to change me. Transformation to be more like Jesus is a process, a life journey.

    Absolutely, and I applaud him for it. People like Malcolm X were far worse, and often ended up being extreme racists themselves. I think that MLK understood the nature of human beings as individuals who are susceptible to bad ideas, and that once you have destroyed the bad ideas you should no longer bear a grudge over people who once believed in them.
    I had to bolden some of your quote above cause it impacted me. Very eloquently stated! And, how he destroyed the bad ideas is through love and nonviolence. It would be awesome if Jews in Israel, the people of Palestine, and the Arabs in Israel, would learn from Martin Luther King Jr. concerning how to destroy the bad ideas which drive them to kill each other.


    Well Israel isn't the one being oppressed, let's be honest. The ones being oppressed are the innocent Palestinians.
    If Israel did not have the Iron Dome and the rockets Hamas sends into Israel hit and killed humans, would Israel be oppressed? Is the Iron Dome what is keeping Israel from being oppressed?

    If Hamas used nonviolence (as well as the Palestinian movement in general), they would have tremendous success and would have a state by now, I think.

    100% agree.
    Well clearly they can. Germany turned from a fascist dictatorship into a liberal democracy, but it required tremendous force and massive defeat. I'm pessimistic though about Palestine and the middle east in general, because so many bad ideas are floating around and there isn't nearly enough advocacy for the good ones. People there seem to value blood and old grievances over territory more than they value freedom.

    Sad but true.
    Thank you, this forum (and this thread in particular) has a nasty habit of descending into spiteful argument (I'll admit that I've done my fair share). I just want people to be free in a meaningful sense, and the world to be democratic.
    Great goals.


    Both groups are diverse, of course. There are some Israelis who care nothing for the Arabs, and there are some Arabs who want to drive the Israelis into the sea. But where the comparison ends is when you look at who runs each country or society. Israel is run democratically and has (basically) equality before the law for all its citizens, including Arabs. Palestine is run by strongmen and fascists. So I can say with confidence that the Israeli leadership is much more rational than the Palestinian leadership. And going back historically, it is not Israel which has consistently failed to recognise Palestine's right to exist, but the other way around, going all the way back to 1948. Actually, Palestine didn't exist as a concept then, but Haj Amin Al Husseini, the grand mufti of Jerusalem (a thoroughly evil man and close ally of Hitler) of course didn't recognise Israel's right to exist, while Israel's early leadership were happy for an Arab state to be created alongside it. Of course a lot has happened since then, and undeniably there has been huge, mainly Arab suffering. But the people who most need to change to end this suffering, are (to me) clearly the Arabs.
    Agreed, though I do think the Israelis need to stop attacking the people in Gaza,including Hamas. I understand that many of my Jewish friends think that would be akin to suicide,but I do think they should trust in G-d more and in attacking less. I think Israel attacking the people in Gaza is hurting Israel as well as Gaza.

    Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion. I appreciate the points you've raised.
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    (Original post by Acidy)
    In my opinion the following should be considered:

    There are 1.6 Billion Muslims in the world or 23% of the World's population.

    There's are 14-15 million jews in the world and are less than 0.1% of the world's population.

    It's easy to hate the minority, especially when they stand up for themselves against the majority. This is the nature of human struggle.

    If you can't view a situation objectively, reason and come to a reasonable conclusion about the current situation presented by a lot of the present anti-zionist media. You're probably not that smart.

    Remember who owns the majority of the World's Wealth
    - after a History's worth of persecution
    - relative to their population (0.1%) (jesus christ.)

    Do you see Rabbi's with Suicide vests walking into ASDA with the intention of inflicting harm? No. The truth is this is not within the nature of their religion and to think of Israel as a parable to Nazi Germany or otherwise is quite-frankly pathetic.

    The fact is, and most of you won't be able to understand this, having been brainwashed with anti-logic conditioning.

    Jews contribute the most to society and are the most peaceful nation when they are not being bombarded with religions that wish to crucify them. It's the survival of Israel against the world and nothing more. Would you rather they voluntarily lay down their lives and be slaughtered like sheep for no other purpose then to make the fundamentalist -terrorist middle east feel better about themselves?

    This is probably going to sound a bit controversial, but Hey-ho. The fact remains, the majority of countries and it's civilian populations have nothing going for them. Keep in mind who gives the most contributions to the world, perhaps even google it.
    It's nice to see a certain viewpoint in a coherent fashion which, whilst I may not agree entirely with, I can follow and understand the rationale behind.

    First off, what I agree with. Israel is certainly developed, advanced in technology and has had its share of efforts in bringing about peace in the region. It's population is mostly Jewish, the only state in the world in such a manner, who support Zionism. Jews certainly have and continue to contribute to our society significantly, and form part of the Western world's backbone. They are rich, as you point out, even after facing a troubled past with others. Struggle with others they have, ever since the inception of their kind.

    All that are things I'm sure all people can agree with; almost common sense - or knowledge, rather.

    Amongst your rhetoric, however, lies a message I cannot avoid. You have portrayed this as a war waged between Muslims and Jews - when it is far from that. Palestinians, or Gazans for that matter, do not equate to Muslims. There are many Christian and Jewish Palestinians who face the common struggle of their fellow Muslim Palestinian. I can't help but feel this is more an allegory against Islamists, rather than the Palestinian people. One mustn't confuse the two. Be that as it may, I will acknowledge the majority of Palestinians are Arab, and Muslim at that. They have elected Islamist representatives (Hamas), and more moderate ones (Fatah). You might see these groups as 'terrorist', but in actual fact they constitute much of the State Of Palestine's parliament. Nonetheless, their actions don't reflect that of an entire people - and their claim to what was theirs.

    Sure, the leadership of Palestine isn't innocent, but neither is Israel's. As much of a utopian picture as you paint for the Jewish state, it has the blood of many innocents on its hands. In the recent air strikes it has conducted, the current count of the dead see 70% innocent. I'm not going to bring about the 'poor children' argument; I'd rather be pragmatic about this. And this - as we all know - is not the only time Israel has retaliated. I'm not interested in going to the nitty gritty of all incidents ever chronicled between the two states however. Both sides have their muck, and Israel's is greater.

    All of this happening; this conflict, this prejudice, this divide... why? Because what was a minority then - and is now - wanted and took the land of what was a majority then... and is now. Because centuries of many religions and cultures in synergy was disregarded for the non-indigenous Ashkenazi. Self-determination was chucked out of the window, and the self-proclaimed Jewish State came in. Not surprisingly, the persecuted European Jews were ecstatic about the idea of Israel, whilst its current inhabitants were not. Why would the Grand Mutfi even decline an offer of losing 25% of Palestine, 20 years earlier? Because it was their homeland. No one's going to give away the kitchen of their house, because someone had lived in that house 50 years ago. Preposterous. But, by 1947, the UN - under the discretion of the UK, decided to give the entire grand floor and the stairs of the house (55%) to the outsiders, the Ashkenazi. In this day and age, having scripture to support you makes you no landlord - especially for a country that has become increasingly secular. So, to me, the Arab reaction for that decision is absolutely no surprise, and justified. Whether it was under the Babylonians, Persians or even Ottomans; the Christians, Jews and Muslims of Jerusalem and its surrounding area thrived. Why else do you think it is the very Temple Mount which cradles the Dome of The Rock? The majority of the population weren't displaced from their homes for living in a land suddenly designated as part of the Jewish State. They lived shoulder to shoulder and in peace. So, the people weren't just displaced in the early 20th century; that culture of togetherness was too, which is now slowly being stitched together by the Israeli government.
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    well, the naziis i suppose. if hitler had won there was it seems some pact in place in principle between the arabs and nazis for palestine, in exchange for oil etc.

    but the british and allied forces kicked the naziis (and then i suppose the arabs) ass. even so they were magnanamous in victory i thought, in deciding to give the arabs various differnt states with their holy city in saudi arabia, and the jews their own state in the lands of palestine. i suppose in the basis that the jews had longer ties to palestine than the arabs ever did.

    what has gone on since then has simply been a repercussion of israel being superior to the muslim world, i would have thought arabs would be able to have appreciate that fact, seeing as they were able to seize palestine orignally being superior to the then collapsing roman armies, now the jews are superior to the arabs and so are in control. but no - why so *****y about this?
    They gave European Jews Israel because they had "longer ties" to Palestine.

    Tell me, why were there any European Jews at all if they all loved their homeland so much?
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    I'm talking about their rocket fire. They fire rockets into civilian areas with the purpose of killing civilians. It is ineffective, due to the iron dome and a good alert system coupled with ample bomb shelters, but still, their intention is to kill civilians. They probably know that it is ineffective, and are doing it cynically with the intention of provoking Israel to attack.



    Not at all. I am in favour of measures which are required to defeat Hamas. Whether or not the current measures are required, I don't know. The death of every civilian in war is a tragedy. But you should not pick your side simplistically based on who receives the most deaths. If you did that, you'd end up supporting Nazi Germany against Britain.



    The trouble is, I don't support Hamas' grievances. To appease their grievances would mean destroying Israel and setting up an Islamic state. I sympathise with Palestinians who aren't members of Hamas or other fascist movements, and they do have a political case to make, but not against Israel - against the fascist Palestinian leadership.

    In other words, what you regard as my hypocrisy is simply my differing opinion of which side to support based on the principles they believe in.

    Also, why do you keep putting the word Hamas in upper case?
    HAMAS

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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    They gave European Jews Israel because they had "longer ties" to Palestine.

    Tell me, why were there any European Jews at all if they all loved their homeland so much?
    what has nationality got to do with religion? would you, a pakistani muslim be barred form going into mecca for not being a arab?

    and again you are not answering the question, what do arabs have against israel militarily gaining palestine, when they did they same thing in the past?
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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    Do you mind elaborating?
    Simply that the UN has passed far more resolutions condemning Israel than any other country. Yet no sane observer can think that Israel has acted worse than any other country. The large number of UN resolutions against Israel therefore doesn't reflect Israel's behaviour but rather the UN's behaviour.

    (Original post by getfunky!)
    So you expect a people who are forced from their homes and have their land stolen from them, eventually forced into a refugee camp with an area of only 25miles x 3.7-7.5miles, to simply either not fight back against the oppresive Israeli government which seeks to constantly push their borders, or do you simply expect the Palestinians fighting against Israel to fight from one specific spot where they can be easily blown up the large array of munitons and tools that Israelis hold - Apache helipters, drones, F16's, tanks, IFV's, precision snipers.
    So basically you make two points:

    (1) The Palestinians must fight back and (2) they must do so from within the civilian population or else they will lose really badly.

    Both these points are pretty silly really. Firstly, the Palestinians do not NEED to fight back in Gaza. Israel has withdrawn to its internationally recognised border and that border isn't moving anywhere. So what exactly are they fighting for? Note that the West Bank has been pretty quiet for years now and yet they are the ones who are actually occupied. Moreover, the fighting back of the Palestinians in Gaza is self evidently useless. It isn't getting them anywhere so its not really fighting back is it.

    The second point is just reprehensible. If you cannot win when fighting in the open then don't fight. You're attempting to justify the deliberate use of civilians as human shields as the only tactic available for Hamas. I think that's pretty sick. You're not really a friend of the Palestinians if you are saying that they (the civilians) ought to be putting themselves in harm's way for the sake of a pointless fight.

    (Original post by azilani191)
    The torah teaches do not steal and do not murder yet you have illegally occupied and stolen the Palestinians land and murdered thousands of innocent civilians
    Your original claim was that the Torah forbids a Jewish state. Yet your comments here relate only to the occupation not the State of Israel. The State of Israel came into being via International agreement without theft or murder.
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    what has nationality got to do with religion? would you, a pakistani muslim be barred form going into mecca for not being a arab?
    I didn't realise that I was a "Pakistani Muslim".

    and again you are not answering the question, what do arabs have against israel militarily gaining palestine, when they did they same thing in the past?
    Except they didn't. They gained it through IMMIGRATION, not militarily.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    I'm talking about their rocket fire. They fire rockets into civilian areas with the purpose of killing civilians. It is ineffective, due to the iron dome and a good alert system coupled with ample bomb shelters, but still, their intention is to kill civilians. They probably know that it is ineffective, and are doing it cynically with the intention of provoking Israel to attack.
    They target military bases as well. Here, live feed from Al Qassam...

    Not at all. I am in favour of measures which are required to defeat Hamas. Whether or not the current measures are required, I don't know. The death of every civilian in war is a tragedy. But you should not pick your side simplistically based on who receives the most deaths. If you did that, you'd end up supporting Nazi Germany against Britain.
    Do you believe the response from Israel has been adequate or do they need to step it up a gear?

    The trouble is, I don't support Hamas' grievances. To appease their grievances would mean destroying Israel and setting up an Islamic state. I sympathise with Palestinians who aren't members of Hamas or other fascist movements, and they do have a political case to make, but not against Israel - against the fascist Palestinian leadership.
    But HAMAS's request are an end to the siege of Gaza which affects the everyday Palestinian.

    In other words, what you regard as my hypocrisy is simply my differing opinion of which side to support based on the principles they believe in.
    You say HAMAS want to destroy Israel. The Likud Charter rejects a Palestinian State.

    You say HAMAS want to kill all Jews. A Knesset member calls for the genocide of Palestinians.

    You say HAMAS kills civilians. The IDF kills civilians.

    Also, why do you keep putting the word Hamas in upper case?
    Because it stands for something?
 
 
 
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