The I-SOC (Islamic Society) XIII

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    And the servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them [harshly], they say [words of] peace [Quran 25:63]
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    (Original post by TheJ0ker)
    How is that laughable? No, I have not completely read the Qu'ran which I freely admit, as an example you don't need to read the whole of Mein Kampf to see that it contains racist ideology. It astonishes me that you can't see how parts of the Qu'ran can be interpreted as violent. Do you not understand logic at all? If one reads a part of a book which can be interpreted as violent then the book is not completely peaceful, its pretty simple. Do you deny that these extremists read the same book as you do?

    I implore you to give me a proper counter argument to understandable criticisms instead of just laughing.
    You're not allowed to make up your own interpretations, otherwise you'll have a million Muslims all saying different things and giving mixed meanings.
    We refer to scholarly consensus instead, however, extremists completely disregard them.

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    (Original post by Paranoid_Glitch)
    I am not a Muslim and i have barely read the Quran, so if i post anything that may have been misinterpreted or misunderstood, please forgive me and politely correct me.

    I began to do research on Islam to find out whether it is the peaceful religion that people say it is and i came across these verses:

    “Kill them [unbelievers] wherever you find them… And fight them until there is no more unbelief and worship is for Allah alone”

    To me these verses look like they condone violence, the antithesis of peace. But i also came across this.

    "be merciful to those on the earth and the one above the heavens will have mercy upon you"

    Now i see two statements that to me seem to be entirely contradictory of one another. If Islam preaches peace then that means that the scriptures that proclaim peace must outweigh those that do the opposite. Is that the case? If not, then what makes Islam a religion that preaches peace rather than war. War and Peace are entirely conflicting ideologies, and there is no way they can be achieved together.
    The verses you quoted in context:

    Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

    And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

    And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

    [Quran 2:190-192]

    By looking at the verse in context the teaching is clear. Fight against those who fight against you [self defence] (190) - if they stop then stop (192).

    Verse 191 tells us these verses were revealed in a historical context due to the mentioning of Masjid Al Haram. A context in which the Muslim community had been attacked by the people of Mecca and God allowed the Muslims to defend themselves.

    As has been stated peaceful is different from pacifism.

    The statements do not contradict. One must show mercy to those upon the earth. But Islam allows self defence if one is attacked as those verses clarify.
    Spoiler:
    Show
    The verses you quoted in context:Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.[Quran 2:190-192]By looking at the verse in context the teaching is clear. Fight against those who fight against you [self defence] (190) - if they stop then stop (192).Verse 191 tells us these verses were revealed in a historical context due to the mentioning of Masjid Al Haram. A context in which the Muslim community had been attacked by the people of Mecca and God allowed the Muslims to defend themselves.As has been stated peaceful is different from pacifism.The statements do not contradict. One must show mercy to those upon the earth. But Islam allows self defence if one is attacked as those verses clarify.
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    Khalid al-'Absi said, "A son of mine died and I felt intense grief over his loss. I said, 'Abu Hurayra, have you heard anything from the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, to cheer us regarding our dead?' He replied, 'I heard the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, say,

    "Your children are roaming freely in the Garden."'"

    Al-Adab Al-Mufrad 145. Sheikh Al Albani Said Saheeh In Saheeh Al Adab Al Mufrad
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    (Original post by HAnwar)
    >Claims Quran isn't completely peaceful
    >Admits to not having completed the Quran
    Lol
    If someone says all swans are white, then all I need to see is one grey swan for that statement to become false. To claim that someone needs to see all swans before they could form an opinion on that statement is disingenuous. What you should be doing is asking the person to show you the grey swan, not demanding they observe every swan in the world.
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    (Original post by ThatMuslimGuy)
    The verses you quoted in context:

    Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

    And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

    And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

    [Quran 2:190-192]

    By looking at the verse in context the teaching is clear. Fight against those who fight against you [self defence] (190) - if they stop then stop (192).

    Verse 191 tells us these verses were revealed in a historical context due to the mentioning of Masjid Al Haram. A context in which the Muslim community had been attacked by the people of Mecca and God allowed the Muslims to defend themselves.

    As has been stated peaceful is different from pacifism.

    The statements do not contradict. One must show mercy to those upon the earth. But Islam allows self defence if one is attacked as those verses clarify.
    Spoiler:
    Show
    The verses you quoted in context:Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.[Quran 2:190-192]By looking at the verse in context the teaching is clear. Fight against those who fight against you [self defence] (190) - if they stop then stop (192).Verse 191 tells us these verses were revealed in a historical context due to the mentioning of Masjid Al Haram. A context in which the Muslim community had been attacked by the people of Mecca and God allowed the Muslims to defend themselves.As has been stated peaceful is different from pacifism.The statements do not contradict. One must show mercy to those upon the earth. But Islam allows self defence if one is attacked as those verses clarify.
    Excellent points.
    Couldn't have answered it better.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Strictly speaking, they are meant for modern times too, though it depends upon the context of the situation i.e. during war.
    No they are not because that would mean that ISIS are following the Quran because they are at war. They were meant for when Muhammad pbuh was starting Islam so he could get people to be Muslims because noone had heard about it so they fought against him.
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    (Original post by guided1)
    No they are not because that would mean that ISIS are following the Quran because they are at war. They were meant for when Muhammad pbuh was starting Islam so he could get people to be Muslims because noone had heard about it so they fought against him.
    I think you should have a closer look at TMG's reply.
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    If someone says all swans are white, then all I need to see is one grey swan for that statement to become false. To claim that someone needs to see all swans before they could form an opinion on that statement is disingenuous. What you should be doing is asking the person to show you the grey swan, not demanding they observe every swan in the world.
    We're talking about the Quran here not swans.
    You can't compare an animal/living thing with a piece of writing since you can derive so much more from a piece of text (like different meanings etc.)
    Again, like everyone else has said, place those 'violent' bits in context and read around them.

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    (Original post by HAnwar)
    We're talking about the Quran here not swans.
    Why? It was a simply analogy to explain why your post was disingenuous. You can argue that his original statement that he made was wrong and that Muslims don't claim that the Quran is 'completely peaceful', but rather is a book that contains verses which when taken on their own aren't peaceful, but are context bound, and once one takes the context into account, they carry a different message. But you didn't do that, rather you took fault with the fact that he hadn't read the whole Quran, which the example of the swan highlighted wasn't a logical point.

    You can't compare an animal/living thing with a piece of writing since you can derive so much more from a piece of text (like different meanings etc.)
    Well, I fully agree that texts are subjective, but some fellow I-Soc members wont agree with you there.

    Again, like everyone else has said, place those 'violent' bits in context and read around them.
    I didn't take fault with what other people said, but only your point. Like I said, you could have made a point, but you didn't. The point you made was logically fallacious.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Strictly speaking, they are meant for modern times too, though it depends upon the context of the situation i.e. during war.
    Peace be upon you

    Personally, I believe this may cause issues because how would everyone agree that such a verse is now officially applicable. You may reply with "context" but one has to interpret the context in order to make a decision whether a verse can now be applied, thus requiring a opinion and thus subjective (to an extent). It is almost inevitable that people would disagree.

    It''s also interesting to note that permission for such commands from God have been given by His infallible creation (eg: the Holy Prophet and in my belief, his pure household), and thus this is what we must rely on. Their command is directly from God, and therefore their say is objectified when ours isn't.

    For instance, you say "i.e during war", does this include any war? Even if the Muslims are indeed incorrect (out of the parties involved). Or does this mean the war has to be an exact replica of the Prophet's situation?
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    Am I the only one having issues with chrome when pressing backspace doesn't take you back to the previous page!
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    (Original post by ThatMuslimGuy)
    The verses you quoted in context:

    Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

    And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

    And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

    [Quran 2:190-192]

    By looking at the verse in context the teaching is clear. Fight against those who fight against you [self defence] (190) - if they stop then stop (192).

    Verse 191 tells us these verses were revealed in a historical context due to the mentioning of Masjid Al Haram. A context in which the Muslim community had been attacked by the people of Mecca and God allowed the Muslims to defend themselves.

    As has been stated peaceful is different from pacifism.

    The statements do not contradict. One must show mercy to those upon the earth. But Islam allows self defence if one is attacked as those verses clarify.
    Spoiler:
    Show
    The verses you quoted in context:Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.[Quran 2:190-192]By looking at the verse in context the teaching is clear. Fight against those who fight against you [self defence] (190) - if they stop then stop (192).Verse 191 tells us these verses were revealed in a historical context due to the mentioning of Masjid Al Haram. A context in which the Muslim community had been attacked by the people of Mecca and God allowed the Muslims to defend themselves.As has been stated peaceful is different from pacifism.The statements do not contradict. One must show mercy to those upon the earth. But Islam allows self defence if one is attacked as those verses clarify.
    PRSOM.
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    Am I the only one having issues with chrome when pressing backspace doesn't take you back to the previous page!
    I am not using chrome but I just checked mines and it works so I am not sure...maybe it will work later insha'Allah. Sometimes it may just happen I guess.
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    The Internet actually contains evil Jinns be careful. Anyways who here has a seen jinn besides me?
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    (Original post by OGGUS)
    The Internet actually contains evil Jinns be careful. Anyways who here has a seen jinn besides me?
    Lol are you serious?
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    (Original post by OGGUS)
    The Internet actually contains evil Jinns be careful. Anyways who here has a seen jinn besides me?
    What? Jinns are online?
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    I think you should have a closer look at TMG's reply.
    But he says that the verse applies if you are being attacked and countries like France and America and Britain are attacking them so they are allowed to use the verses about killing disbelievers who are attacking them. He still makes it sound like ISIS are following the Quran and they cant be. I think it is much better to say that the verses about fighting and killing are only about Muhammad pbuh and cant be used in modern times. Then atheists and christians cant say that Islam is violent.
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    As-Salaam-Mu-Alaikum guys,

    Im studying at the University of Manchester (currently in 3rd year placement) so if any of you have questions about the city or the area, feel free to ask me
 
 
 
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