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    (Original post by paddy__power)
    This doesn't really make any sense as a point. "Authoritarian extremists" are capable of aiding progress as well, and the vast majority of us are not that (if we accept that one or two are, which I don't).
    well, I was exaggerating somewhat, but still, there are members of TSR Labour who hold somewhat Authoritarian social views, which arent neccesarily regressive, but certainly some of your MP's have espoused views that I would not call even remotely progressive.
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    (Original post by Diety)
    what exactly is a bill (I am doing politics at A-level next year, so hopefully will be more knowledgeable then)
    Just looked and realised you're 15. It's good you're taking such an interest at your age, and good you're aware of issues like those in Israel/Palestine (not to sound patronising).

    A bill, or act, is a document that sets out laws on here essentially. If you look in the forum you will find a few
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    (Original post by SciFiBoy)
    well, I was exaggerating somewhat, but still, there are members of TSR Labour who hold somewhat Authoritarian social views, which arent neccesarily regressive, but certainly some of your MP's have espoused views that I would not call even remotely progressive.
    Probably true, but we have a large number of MPs remember and even those that are somewhat authoritarian (relatively speaking) have valid opinions. I don't necessarily consider it a bad thing to have members who, in some cases, will be natural devils advocates.
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    (Original post by paddy__power)
    Issues like those in Israel/Palestine.
    Speaking of which what is the position of TSR Labour/Government on the conflict?

    I wouldn't call it an issue btw, more of a speed bump in the way for Israel's eventual ruling of the Middle East :eek: :lol:
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    (Original post by tehFrance)
    Speaking of which what is the position of TSR Labour/Government on the conflict?

    [SIZE="1"]I wouldn't call it an issue btw, more of a speed bump in the way for Israel's eventual ruling of the Middle East :eek: :lol:[/SIZE]
    We don't have an official position and individual members are free to make their own statements.

    My personal opinion is that the creation of two states, with significant compromise from Israel in regards to the borders, is the only way to end the conflict - not that I feel it will ever truly be ended while they both exist. I know far less on the subject than I would like though - one of my summer plans is to rectify this
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    (Original post by paddy__power)
    My personal opinion is that the creation of two states, with significant compromise from Israel in regards to the borders, is the only way to end the conflict.
    Why? Israel has her borders the way she does to protect herself from attacks better, she gained these borders in the Six Day War mainly when all four of her neighbours attacked her! What is your stance on East Jerusalem, should the treasured city be spilt once more? which should never happen as it is a Holy City.

    What about compromises from the 'Palestinians'? Hamas for instance should be removed from power before any peace can be though of, don't you think? Also is it Israel's fault that 'Palestine' was just a geographical area that had no legitimate country on it and in a way was up for grabs especially after she was attacked?

    Did you know there wasn't even a 'Palestine' (well not really, there were many tribes under the Ottoman empire and before hand though) until the British came along and then after the Six Day War the people were then called 'Palestinians' and the area was ruled by Transjordan (now Jordan) and Egypt although under British mandate.
    (Original post by paddy__power)
    Not that I feel it will ever truly be ended while they both exist.
    So what you are saying is the geographical area of Palestine should be ruled by the country of Israel

    Sorry for the long reply of which some may not make sense if you are not well versed on the subject
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    (Original post by tehFrance)
    Why? Israel has her borders the way she does to protect herself from attacks better, she gained these borders in the Six Day War mainly when all four of her neighbours attacked her! What is your stance on East Jerusalem, should the treasured city be spilt once more? which should never happen as it is a Holy City.
    It was Palestine's first. Whether the people were called that or not. I think, if anything, it should probably be neutral.

    What about compromises from the 'Palestinians'? Hamas for instance should be removed from power before any peace can be though of, don't you think? Also is it Israel's fault that 'Palestine' was just a geographical area that had no legitimate country on it and in a way was up for grabs especially after she was attacked?
    Israels creation, and continued existence was facilitated by other powers - in this respect it isn't their fault. I don't think Hamas should necessarily be removed, no. Israel can't arrogate any moral supremacy here IMO but of course Palestine should have to make concessions.

    Did you know there wasn't even a 'Palestine' (well not really, there were many tribes under the Ottoman empire and before hand though) until the British came along and then after the Six Day War the people were then called 'Palestinians' and the area was ruled by Transjordan (now Jordan) and Egypt although under British mandate.
    I knew it was essentially ruled by Britain. I am, frankly, more concerned with reaching a resolution now rather than debating the past. It isn't legitimate, IMO, for Israel to continue to take more land from the Palestinians.

    So what you are saying is the geographical area of Palestine should be ruled by the country of Israel
    No.

    Sorry for the long reply of which some may not make sense if you are not well versed on the subject
    It's fine. As I said it is something I'm horrifically ignorant about really.
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    (Original post by paddy__power)
    It was Palestine's first. Whether the people were called that or not. I think, if anything, it should probably be neutral.
    Palestine isn't a country, never has been, i was ruled by Ottoman empire, British, Transjordan and Egypt before hand so to say it was Palestine's first is absurd.
    (Original post by paddy__power)
    I don't think Hamas should necessarily be removed, no.
    Are you saying you support a terrorist origination? :holmes:
    (Original post by paddy__power)
    It isn't legitimate, IMO, for Israel to continue to take more land from the Palestinians.
    I have to admit I agree as Israel already has the Holy Cities she wanted.

    Maybe we should wait until you have read up more on the situation?
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    (Original post by tehFrance)
    Palestine isn't a country, never has been, i was ruled by Ottoman empire, British, Transjordan and Egypt before hand so to say it was Palestine's first is absurd.
    This depends on how you define country. It has long been used to describe an area of land although the borders have been fluid and is now used generally as a term referring to the SOP or general Palestinian territories. It isn't absurd at all, it comes down to interpretation.

    Are you saying you support a terrorist origination? :holmes:
    No, and I didn't say that either.

    I have to admit I agree as Israel already has the Holy Cities she wanted.
    Lol, fair enough. I personally couldn't care less about "holy" cities but obviously they do.

    Maybe we should wait until you have read up more on the situation?
    No it's fine. I know enough to respond to these points and talking about it will probably force me to research which is a good thing as otherwise I will just sit here and watch trashy TV :lol:
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    (Original post by paddy__power)
    This depends on how you define country. It has long been used to describe an area of land although the borders have been fluid and is now used generally as a term referring to the SOP or general Palestinian territories. It isn't absurd at all, it comes down to interpretation.
    Okay, personally I don't think it is a country.
    (Original post by paddy__power)
    No, and I didn't say that either.
    You don't want them removed so it is logical
    (Original post by paddy__power)
    Lol, fair enough. I personally couldn't care less about "holy" cities but obviously they do.
    You don't care? not religious? the Holy Cities are sacred to Jews and we would like them to remain in Jewish 'hands'.
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    (Original post by tehFrance)
    Okay, personally I don't think it is a country.
    That's fine. It is a reasonable position given the history, although not one I agree with.

    You don't want them removed so it is logical
    I didn't say this - I said that they shouldn't have to be removed in order for the two sides to reach agreement. Whether they eventually are is one matter but I don't feel it should be a rigid prerequisite.

    You don't care? not religious? the Holy Cities are sacred to Jews and we would like them to remain in Jewish 'hands'.
    Indeed, I don't care at all. No city is "holy" to me, but I recognise their importance for others. Ah you're a Jew, that explains your position

    You lot have Matisyahu! Very cool Jew.
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    Why did labour let in so many asylum seekers who just claim benefits.
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    (Original post by paddy__power)
    I didn't say this.
    That is how it reads to me but they will be removed at some point, especially if Palestine does become a county in September as both sides will be at war and it won't be some pussy whip thing
    (Original post by paddy__power)
    Indeed, I don't care at all. No city is "holy" to me, but I recognise their importance for others. Ah you're a Jew, that explains your position
    No city is Holy :eek: :lol: yes I am a Jew and a dedicated supporter of Israel
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    (Original post by Jackthevillain)
    Why did labour let in so many asylum seekers who just claim benefits.
    You do know that this is the TSR Labour right? they aren't accountable for those ****wads that ran the country into the ground... as much as I want them to be though
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    (Original post by tehFrance)
    You do know that this is the TSR Labour right? they aren't accountable for those ****wads that ran the country into the ground... as much as I want them to be though
    Yes but they are likely to know the party views more than I and support those views. Just like my Great grandad was a politician on a local level for the Nazi party so if anyone wants to ask me questions about the Nazis fire away.
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    (Original post by Jackthevillain)
    Why did labour let in so many asylum seekers who just claim benefits.
    TSR Labour isn't the same as the real life Labour party

    Are you claiming that we shouldn't let people who are at risk of being persecuted in their own countries into the UK? Are you claiming that all asylum seekers just claim benefits?
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    (Original post by DayneD89)
    TSR Labour isn't the same as the real life Labour party

    Are you claiming that we shouldn't let people who are at risk of being persecuted in their own countries into the UK? Are you claiming that all asylum seekers just claim benefits?
    I just dont see the point of offering asylum to people from Somalia when they could all just travel to a much closer nation in Africa for asylum same goes for all asylum seekers. I didnt say all asylum seekers dont work its just many dont.
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    (Original post by tehFrance)
    Okay, personally I don't think it is a country.
    I don't think anybody's claiming that Palestine was a nation state or anything, but it's undeniable that the group that constitutes present-day Palestinians has been there for a long period of time.

    You don't want them removed so it is logical
    Obviously firing rockets into Israel etc needs to be strongly condemned, but they were democratically elected by the Gazans?

    You don't care? not religious? the Holy Cities are sacred to Jews and we would like them to remain in Jewish 'hands'.
    Yeah, but Jerusalem is a holy city to all the Abrahamic religions, including Islam: should they all possess it equally?
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    (Original post by Jackthevillain)
    I just dont see the point of offering asylum to people from Somalia when they could all just travel to a much closer nation in Africa for asylum same goes for all asylum seekers. I didnt say all asylum seekers dont work its just many dont.
    They also bring huge amounts into the country. I would like to see some proof that a significant portion of asylum seekers claim benefits rather than work. The only graph I have is about total immigration rather than asylum seekers only and that shows immigration rising up until around 2009/2010 when it begins to fall. Interesting that it rises as unemployment levels decrease and falls as the graph shows unemployment rising.

    In 2008 there were 25,670 asylum applications. This figure rises to 30,545 including dependants. How many of these do you think were granted asylum? 6,250 were turned down at their initial assessment, leaving 19,420. Of these, 19 per cent were granted asylum, 11 per cent granted either humanitarian protection or discretionary leave and 70 per cent refused.

    This means that in 2008 just over 3,500 people were granted asylum. If each of them claimed job seekers allowance for a whole year the cost would be under a million. This sounds like a lot, but the total payout for benefits in 2008/09 was just over 150 billion.

    Also interesting, in 2008 11,640 people who had previously claimed asylum left the country (voluntarily or otherwise).
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    (Original post by sandys1000)
    Yeah, but Jerusalem is a holy city to all the Abrahamic religions, including Islam: should they all possess it equally?
    Open Cities run by the UN? It could work if the UN wasn't incompetent.
 
 
 
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