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    (Original post by PaulPaulPaul)
    So you're now arguing that the UN has it out for Israel? How absurd
    No. I'm stating the obvious: the UN has it in for Israel.
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    The IDF, the byword for accuracy, retracts their earlier comments:

    "IDF retracts previous statement: Rocket landed in urban area in Yehud."
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    Same reason why Multiculturalism isn't labelled as an invasion or colonialism
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    (Original post by ineedtorevise127)
    The sad thing is our tax money gives a lot of money to Israel yearly we are virtually giving our money for them to buy rockets to kill innocent civilians likewise the same can be said in Iraq and Afghanistan our tax money was wasted and sad to say you can never bring back an innocent person. Israel makes surplus after surplus yet USA and UK especially give them billions we are in deficit shouldn't we fix our problems first before giving to a rich nation
    The EU pours money into Gaza which in turn pours rockets into Israel.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    So why don't the Jews ask the Romans for land given the fact that they were kicked out of their homes by them?
    The Romans were killing Jews, not giving them back their land. When the descendants of the Jewish people who had fled to European countries returned to the land of their forefathers, England had control of the land at that time, taking it from the Ottoman Empire.

    But half of all Israeli's don't believe in the Jewish scriptures.
    That is true currently, but that can change.

    You can't use as justification what 0.14% of the world believes in.
    The promises God gives happens when even a few believe in Him.

    So the Arabs were anti-Jewish or pro-Hitler?
    The Arabs who were fighting the Jewish immigrants were anti-Jewish. About being pro-Hitler, the Grand Mufti was pro-Hitler. I wonder if he agreed with the famous quote, 'The enemy of my enemy is my friend.'?

    They lived under his empire yes. What does that have to do with anything?
    I am just asking if the Jewish people who are against the nation of Israel being regenerated again are also against the fact that during Cyrus the Great of Persia's time, he allowed Israel to be regenerated?


    And what proportion of land will you give to them?
    [/QUOTE]

    1/3

    Chicken and egg, right?
    Aye.




    With all due respect, that wasn't the question. Allow me to clarify:
    If the UK/US wasn't involved in WW2 and the Jews had risen up against Hitler, would we have supported the Jews or Germany's "right to self-defense"?
    I don't know. However, the fact that the Grand Mufti supported Hitler greatly displeased the UK and the USA.

    No, thank you for engaging in the discussion. It's been a pleasure.
    Equally


    Fantastic news. And what would you define as "liberal"?
    Liberal means as many as for whom there are room. The USA is very spacious - huge. The size of Israel is teeny weeny compared to the USA. Israel is smaller than the teeny tiny state of New Jersey

    Do you put a number on it?
    Hmm. Numbers multiply. Both South American and Asian populations multiply fairly quickly so I suppose putting a limit is a wise idea, but I'd have to give it a liberal number due to supporting liberal immigration. I am one of those Americans who gets yelled at by other Americans for not wanting to deport all the undocumented immigrants. It's a touchy subject in the USA. It is a blessing to have been born in the USA. I have been to South America and understand why many want to immigrate to the USA.
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    Article by Mehdi Hassan countering popular Israeli claims:

    1) "We pulled out of the Gaza Strip in 2005... we pulled out of every inch."
    Israel likes to pretend that the occupation of Gaza ended with Ariel Sharon's 'unilateral disengagement' from the strip in August 2005. It didn't. Israel is still, legally, the occupying power and continues to control Gaza's territorial borders, coastal waters and airspace. In fact, as Harvard University Middle East expert Sara Roy noted in the Boston Globe in 2012: "Israeli-imposed buffer zones -- areas of restricted access -- now absorb nearly 14 percent of Gaza's total land and at least 48 percent of total arable land. Similarly, the sea buffer zone covers 85 percent of the maritime area promised to Palestinians in the Oslo Accords, reducing 20 nautical miles to three..." Israel also continues to control the Palestinian Population Registry, which has the power to define who is a "Palestinian" and who is a legal resident of Gaza. Does Gaza sound sovereign, independent or un-occupied to you?


    2) "Hamas took over the Gaza Strip by force."
    Yes it did, in June 2007, after being elected to office in January 2006. But what Taub omitted to mention is that it did so in order to pre-empt a coup planned by the Bush administration and egged on by the Israelis. As investigative journalist David Rose pointed out in his acclaimed Vanity Fair piece on the coup, based on leaked documents from the US State Department, it was "President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams [who] backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever."


    3) "At the end of the day democracy is... some sort of commitment to basic democratic values."
    Put to one side the fact that Israel rules over millions of Palestinians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem while denying them the right to vote in Israeli elections, let's take a look for a moment at the 'democratic' fate of Palestinians who live legally inside of Israel as citizens of the Jewish State. There are, according to Ha'aretz, "695 communities, located in regional councils that control about 80 percent of the state's land" which have vetting committees, protected by law, that prevent Palestinian citizens of Israel from buying or renting property in those communities. Israel also operates discriminatory citizenship laws - chief among them, the 1950 Law of Return and the 1952 Citizenship Law - which privilege Jewish citizens over Palestinian citizens. What happened to "basic democratic values"?


    4) "Hamas has brutalised the people of Gaza."
    Yes it has. Hams is undoubtedly guilty of massive human rights abuses inside Gaza. But does that excuse Israel's 47-year brutalisation of the Palestinian people in the Occupied Territories? Consider this Reuters report from June 2013: "A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields. Palestinian children in the Gaza and the West Bank, captured by Israel in the 1967 war, are routinely denied registration of their birth and access to health care, decent schools and clean water, the U.N. Committee on the Rights of the Child said." Is this not brutalisation? Is this not a massive abuse of Palestinian human rights? How about bombing a cafe in which Gazans were watching the World Cup? Or bombing ashelter for Gaza's disabled residents?


    5) "Israel has been trying to show restraint."
    If "restraint" results in 500-plus dead in a matter of days, the vast majority of them civilians, including kids on beaches and disabled people in shelters, then I wouldn't want to see what Taub defines as a lack of restraint. Also, as I mentioned in my remarks to Vine, Israel is using the Dahiya doctrine which, as the 2009 United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict noted, is an Israeli security concept coined by former IDF general Gadi Eizenkot that involves "the application of disproportionate force and the causing of great damage and destruction to civilian property and infrastructure, and suffering to civilian populations". Targeting civilian populations and properties isn't evidence of "restraint", it's evidence of war crimes.


    6) "This was a [ceasefire] proposal that was presented to both Israel and Hamas."
    This isn't true and Taub knows it. The proposed ceasefire deal last week was struck between Egyptian president al-Sisi and Israeli prime minister Netanyahu, with the help of 'peace envoy' Tony Blair - but without any Hamas involvement. Hamas official, Mushir al-Massri, told Al Jazeera, "that the group was never involved in the formulation of the ceasefire and only learned about it from media reports. He said his group rejected the proposal 'in style because no body consulted with us in formatting it, [and] in content because its articles are a free service to the [Israeli] occupation'." To quote Sharif Nashashibi: "It is extraordinary that a supposed mediator between two warring parties would exclude one of them from the process."


    7) "Hamas has been obstructing people from getting the food and the medicines that they need."
    Maybe, but are we expected to believe that the Israelis care about the health and well-being of the people of Gaza? According to a 'secret' US State Department cable, based on conversations between US diplomats and senior Israeli officials, revealed by Wikileaks in 2011: "Israeli officials have confirmed to Embassy officials on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis.. As part of their overall embargo plan against Gaza, Israeli officials have confirmed ... on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge." Also, official Israeli documents, released to the Gisha human rights organisation under Freedom of Information legislation, showed that "the Israeli military made precise calculations of Gaza's daily calorie needs to avoid malnutrition during a blockade imposed on the Palestinian territory between 2007 and mid-2010" and then refused to allow in enough trucks of food to meet those "daily calorie needs".


    8) "I have absolutely no idea what reports [about flechette shells] you're referring to."
    Perhaps Taub, who stuttered as he responded to Vine's very simple question on flechette use, should read the Guardian: "The Israeli military is using flechette shells, which spray out thousands of tiny and potentially lethal metal darts, in its military operation in Gaza. Six flechette shells were fired towards the village of Khuzaa, east of Khan Younis, on 17 July, according to the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights. Nahla Khalil Najjar, 37, suffered injuries to her chest, it said. PCHR provided a picture of flechettes taken by a fieldworker last week. The Israel Defence Forces (IDF) did not deny using the shells in the conflict... The munitions are not prohibited under international humanitarian law, but according to B'Tselem, 'other rules of humanitarian law render their use in the Gaza Strip illegal.'"


    9) "The tragedy is that Hamas... are stopping civilians leaving from the areas of fighting."
    Whether or not Hamas is indeed "stopping civilians" from leaving "the areas of fighting", where are those Palestinian civilians in Gaza supposed to go? Which part of their "prison camp", to quote David Cameron in 2010, can they legitimately and safely take shelter in, given Israel is bombing houses, schools and mosques on the grounds that they're all allegedly being used by Hamas to hide their rockets? To quote the inimitable Jon Stewart, of the Daily Show: "Evacuate to where? Have you f**king seen Gaza? Israel blocked this border, Egypt blocked this border. What, are they supposed to swim for it?"
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    Nice to see Palestine becoming more Jewish.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Article by Mehdi Hassan countering popular Israeli claims:

    1) "We pulled out of the Gaza Strip in 2005... we pulled out of every inch."
    Israel likes to pretend that the occupation of Gaza ended with Ariel Sharon's 'unilateral disengagement' from the strip in August 2005. It didn't. Israel is still, legally, the occupying power and continues to control Gaza's territorial borders, coastal waters and airspace. In fact, as Harvard University Middle East expert Sara Roy noted in the Boston Globe in 2012: "Israeli-imposed buffer zones -- areas of restricted access -- now absorb nearly 14 percent of Gaza's total land and at least 48 percent of total arable land. Similarly, the sea buffer zone covers 85 percent of the maritime area promised to Palestinians in the Oslo Accords, reducing 20 nautical miles to three..." Israel also continues to control the Palestinian Population Registry, which has the power to define who is a "Palestinian" and who is a legal resident of Gaza. Does Gaza sound sovereign, independent or un-occupied to you?


    2) "Hamas took over the Gaza Strip by force."
    Yes it did, in June 2007, after being elected to office in January 2006. But what Taub omitted to mention is that it did so in order to pre-empt a coup planned by the Bush administration and egged on by the Israelis. As investigative journalist David Rose pointed out in his acclaimed Vanity Fair piece on the coup, based on leaked documents from the US State Department, it was "President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams [who] backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever."


    3) "At the end of the day democracy is... some sort of commitment to basic democratic values."
    Put to one side the fact that Israel rules over millions of Palestinians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem while denying them the right to vote in Israeli elections, let's take a look for a moment at the 'democratic' fate of Palestinians who live legally inside of Israel as citizens of the Jewish State. There are, according to Ha'aretz, "695 communities, located in regional councils that control about 80 percent of the state's land" which have vetting committees, protected by law, that prevent Palestinian citizens of Israel from buying or renting property in those communities. Israel also operates discriminatory citizenship laws - chief among them, the 1950 Law of Return and the 1952 Citizenship Law - which privilege Jewish citizens over Palestinian citizens. What happened to "basic democratic values"?


    4) "Hamas has brutalised the people of Gaza."
    Yes it has. Hams is undoubtedly guilty of massive human rights abuses inside Gaza. But does that excuse Israel's 47-year brutalisation of the Palestinian people in the Occupied Territories? Consider this Reuters report from June 2013: "A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields. Palestinian children in the Gaza and the West Bank, captured by Israel in the 1967 war, are routinely denied registration of their birth and access to health care, decent schools and clean water, the U.N. Committee on the Rights of the Child said." Is this not brutalisation? Is this not a massive abuse of Palestinian human rights? How about bombing a cafe in which Gazans were watching the World Cup? Or bombing ashelter for Gaza's disabled residents?


    5) "Israel has been trying to show restraint."
    If "restraint" results in 500-plus dead in a matter of days, the vast majority of them civilians, including kids on beaches and disabled people in shelters, then I wouldn't want to see what Taub defines as a lack of restraint. Also, as I mentioned in my remarks to Vine, Israel is using the Dahiya doctrine which, as the 2009 United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict noted, is an Israeli security concept coined by former IDF general Gadi Eizenkot that involves "the application of disproportionate force and the causing of great damage and destruction to civilian property and infrastructure, and suffering to civilian populations". Targeting civilian populations and properties isn't evidence of "restraint", it's evidence of war crimes.


    6) "This was a [ceasefire] proposal that was presented to both Israel and Hamas."
    This isn't true and Taub knows it. The proposed ceasefire deal last week was struck between Egyptian president al-Sisi and Israeli prime minister Netanyahu, with the help of 'peace envoy' Tony Blair - but without any Hamas involvement. Hamas official, Mushir al-Massri, told Al Jazeera, "that the group was never involved in the formulation of the ceasefire and only learned about it from media reports. He said his group rejected the proposal 'in style because no body consulted with us in formatting it, [and] in content because its articles are a free service to the [Israeli] occupation'." To quote Sharif Nashashibi: "It is extraordinary that a supposed mediator between two warring parties would exclude one of them from the process."


    7) "Hamas has been obstructing people from getting the food and the medicines that they need."
    Maybe, but are we expected to believe that the Israelis care about the health and well-being of the people of Gaza? According to a 'secret' US State Department cable, based on conversations between US diplomats and senior Israeli officials, revealed by Wikileaks in 2011: "Israeli officials have confirmed to Embassy officials on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis.. As part of their overall embargo plan against Gaza, Israeli officials have confirmed ... on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge." Also, official Israeli documents, released to the Gisha human rights organisation under Freedom of Information legislation, showed that "the Israeli military made precise calculations of Gaza's daily calorie needs to avoid malnutrition during a blockade imposed on the Palestinian territory between 2007 and mid-2010" and then refused to allow in enough trucks of food to meet those "daily calorie needs".


    8) "I have absolutely no idea what reports [about flechette shells] you're referring to."
    Perhaps Taub, who stuttered as he responded to Vine's very simple question on flechette use, should read the Guardian: "The Israeli military is using flechette shells, which spray out thousands of tiny and potentially lethal metal darts, in its military operation in Gaza. Six flechette shells were fired towards the village of Khuzaa, east of Khan Younis, on 17 July, according to the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights. Nahla Khalil Najjar, 37, suffered injuries to her chest, it said. PCHR provided a picture of flechettes taken by a fieldworker last week. The Israel Defence Forces (IDF) did not deny using the shells in the conflict... The munitions are not prohibited under international humanitarian law, but according to B'Tselem, 'other rules of humanitarian law render their use in the Gaza Strip illegal.'"


    9) "The tragedy is that Hamas... are stopping civilians leaving from the areas of fighting."
    Whether or not Hamas is indeed "stopping civilians" from leaving "the areas of fighting", where are those Palestinian civilians in Gaza supposed to go? Which part of their "prison camp", to quote David Cameron in 2010, can they legitimately and safely take shelter in, given Israel is bombing houses, schools and mosques on the grounds that they're all allegedly being used by Hamas to hide their rockets? To quote the inimitable Jon Stewart, of the Daily Show: "Evacuate to where? Have you f**king seen Gaza? Israel blocked this border, Egypt blocked this border. What, are they supposed to swim for it?"
    Haha, taking claims from Islamists Like Medhi really makes you right.
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    (Original post by Ben_Dover)
    Of course...says someone who is vigorously defending israel by posting lengthy posts.

    Just be honest...how much?
    Aright, this is top secret though man (probably gonna be put on a Mossad watch list)

    I don't get anything

    but Bibi said he'd send me some Baklava the IDF, just er...liberated

    Spoiler:
    Show
    Honestly nobody is paying me anything and it is weird that you think this is a widespread thing. Before the recent flare up of threads on this issue I did try to make threads to maybe in a small way improve Muslim and Jewish relations.

    I mean before I never really made pro-Zionist posts and have only been posting as a procrastination between what I am supposed to be doing

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    (Original post by well in the dark)
    I feel incredibly sorry for all those of you who genuinely believe that Israel's aggression is only an act of defence. Israel has a deeper agenda you guys don't seem to have fathomed. Until you do, it'd be better for you to shut your infernal traps, instead of desperately attempt to justify Israel's actions by appealing to logical fallacies: to quoque, strawman, etc; there is simply no logical justification for Israel's actions.
    Well that's pretty clear cut then!

    Not wanting terrorists to fire rockets at your civilians – killing them and destroying their homes – is a logical justification. Now, you may think it a bad justification, or disproportionate, but Israel's logic is clear to see.

    Amusingly, I'm pretty sure declaring your position objectively correct and claiming that everyone who disagrees with you must be using faulty logic is, in itself, a logical fallacy.
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    (Original post by Agapelove)
    The Romans were killing Jews, not giving them back their land. When the descendants of the Jewish people who had fled to European countries returned to the land of their forefathers, England had control of the land at that time, taking it from the Ottoman Empire.
    I meant, given the fact that the Romans kicked them out in the first place, it is only fair that the Romans give them back their land or monetary compensation if they cannot do this, right?

    That is true currently, but that can change.
    Unfortunately, that figure is going up (atheists) instead of coming down...

    The promises God gives happens when even a few believe in Him.
    There are promises which go unfulfilled every day. Why should humans effect what God has promised?

    If God has promised, he should deliver. Humans cannot deliver God's promises.

    The Arabs who were fighting the Jewish immigrants were anti-Jewish. About being pro-Hitler, the Grand Mufti was pro-Hitler. I wonder if he agreed with the famous quote, 'The enemy of my enemy is my friend.'?
    Wait! Were the Arabs "anti-Jewish" or just anti-immigration?

    I am just asking if the Jewish people who are against the nation of Israel being regenerated again are also against the fact that during Cyrus the Great of Persia's time, he allowed Israel to be regenerated again?
    I don't believe there was a State of Israel during the time of King Cyrus the Great...

    1/3
    So for one descendent of Caaninte, you would give 1/3rd?

    What land would this be? Arable or desert?

    Who would the land come from? Israeli or Palestinian?

    I don't know. However, the fact that the Grand Mufti supported Hitler greatly displeased the UK and the USA.
    It's a hypothetical and you must hold an opinion.

    Liberal means as many as for whom there are room. The USA is very spacious - huge. The size of Israel is teeny weeny compared to the USA. It's smaller than the size of tiny state of New Jersey

    Hmm. Numbers multiply. Both South American and Asian populations multiply fairly quickly so I suppose putting a limit is a wise idea, but I'd have give it a liberal number due to supporting liberal immigration. I am one of those Americans who gets yelled at by other Americans for not wanting to deport all the undocumented immigrants. It's a touchy subject in the USA. It is a blessing to have been born in the USA. I have been to South America and understand why many want to immigrate to the USA.
    Why would you want to "put a limit" on immigration if the previous immigrants started reproducing?
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    It may not be antisemitic in theory but consider:

    (1) there have been more protests against Israel than against Syria or ISIS etc
    (2) there have been anti-Israel protests that have included obviously antisemitic chants such as "gas the Jews" (http://www.vox.com/2014/7/21/5923145...emitism-europe)
    (3) in Paris, for example, a supposedly anti-Israel protest attacked Jewish synagogues

    It may not be antisemitic in theory to protest against Israel but for many it actually is.
    1 - because Israel is supposedly a 'civilised' state favoured by our governments and their actions legitimised in our name. It's interesting that you drew that parallel between ISIS and Israel because the only difference between their actions is the empty and hypocritical justifications given for Israeli actions by westerners such as yourself.
    2 - in the 2 protests I've been to (the most recent on Saturday) I haven't heard anything remotely anti-semetic, so these must be isolated, and I can assure you that there is absolutely no consensus in protests for such racist slurs.
    3 - I'm not suggesting that anti-semetism is a myth, and horrible events such as the one you described do occur, I'm just stating that such events cannot be used to justify the slaughter of 600+ people.
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    (Original post by yo radical one)
    Aright, this is top secret though man (probably gonna be put on a Mossad watch list)

    I don't get anything

    but Bibi said he'd send me some Baklava the IDF, just er...liberated

    Spoiler:
    Show
    Honestly nobody is paying me anything and it is weird that you think this is a widespread thing. Before the recent flare up of threads on this issue I did try to make threads to maybe in a small way improve Muslim and Jewish relations.

    I mean before I never really made pro-Zionist posts and have only been posting as a procrastination between what I am supposed to be doing

    I don't think Jews and muslims have a problem. There are many Jews that oppose israel as a nation, including Albert Einstein.

    Zionists however are the problem. They are causing an unnecessary war
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    The EU pours money into Gaza which in turn pours rockets into Israel.
    Compare Gaza to Israel the rich poor divide is too vast.

    EU gives minimal support compared to what other countries give Israel who is a rich country full of surpluses year on year I thought aid goes on countries that need help not countries that have so much money

    We know why Israel gets so much but yet people deny especially USA many media corporations have Zionist links or are owned by Zionists same with UK USA businesses many are owned by these groups as well. Therefore the media will do everything they can to hide Zionism and the atrocities it commits. You need to see the history of Zionism to see how violent it is groups like Hagganah, Irgun and Mossad were terrorist groups they would bomb hotels, kill civilians, injure people to get what they want same with modern day IDF they refer to Palestinians as cockroaches and cheer when innocent civilians die I am sure if that was your or my kids we would call them terrorists. Also you need to consider many Jews don't always support Zionism. In fact many argue it is anti semitic it self and goes contrary to the belief of Judaism which does not agree with building illegal settlements, denying water rights, farming rights Gaza, killing civilians etc... No wonder Jews protested in USA, UK and even Tel Aviv a few days ago against the Israel govt
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    I'm not commenting on the content of the resolutions only on their number. People say "Israel is in breach of XX resolutions" implying it must be really bad because of the number of resolutions against it. I am pointing out that the number tells us more about the UN than about Israel.

    I hope that's more clear but I will happily expand and write more if needs be
    Okay, the issue here is that the the number of resolutions is a meaningless statistic if you don't consider the content - if you are unaware of the general flavour of these resolutions, have a quick look at the link below. It's four years old, but even so it gives you an idea. I would look for a more up-to-date source but I'm currently travelling.

    http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/...l-resolutions/

    I believe that the nature of these resolutions against Israel puts their quantity into perspective. Note: they continue for five pages.
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    (Original post by Ben_Dover)
    I don't think Jews and muslims have a problem. There are many Jews that oppose israel as a nation, including Albert Einstein.

    Zionists however are the problem. They are causing an unnecessary war
    Alright so do would to accept Israel if there were no blockade on Gaza and no settlements in the West Bank?
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    (Original post by CryptoidAlien)
    Haha, taking claims from Islamists Like Medhi really makes you right.
    You'd go further attacking the statements that he has made instead of trying to decry him with potentially libellous statements.

    I've noticed somewhat disturbingly that many of the anti-Muslim posters on this site (you, meenglishisnogood, chindits, felamaslen, yo radical one, observatory etc) are just pro-Israeli.
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    (Original post by Acidy)
    In my opinion the following should be considered:

    There are 1.6 Billion Muslims in the world or 23% of the World's population.

    There's are 14-15 million jews in the world and are less than 0.1% of the world's population.
    What is the reference for this, please? Thanks.
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    Both. I am for Israel's right to exist and for the Palestinians right to exist. I think they should both stop fighting each other. Their fighting is hurting both themselves and each other.
 
 
 
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