Cameron: Turkey must join the EU Watch

miv
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#141
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#141
A country where some months ago they revealed the case of Ergenekon conspiracy, is actually governed by radical militarists and is always a potential dictatorship by Constitution (Army has the right to intervene at any time), should have no place in Europe. At least the value of democracy is not yet waived in this continent. It's sad when I read opinions that put first the "market" arguments eagerly refusing to see that we are talking about a handicapped democracy that could be a pain in Europe's arse at any time and is far from the european political culture. I sincerely have nothing against the people of this country but its political system is completely incompatible with Europe.
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Tamora
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#142
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I'm against Turkey's application. Every time the EU enlarges or widens it also deepens. It has happened every time.

Also Turkey shares borders with some pretty unstable countries, which would become EU borders. Our armed forces would be be obligated to defend them as part of the British backed Common Security and Defence Policy.

I doubt Iceland will be joining the EU. Its people are very independent and it will be their decision. No backing out of referendums for Iceland.

[punctuation correction]
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miv
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#143
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Turkey is unstable itself, you may let me repeat, it doesn't just border unstable countries...In 2009 militarists almost attempted a coup d'etat and when a state is at this level, I'm pretty sure it is far from european culture and from what Europe needs at a time anyway, I would support the memberships of Albania and Montenegro more easily than this. Europe is mainly about Democracy, not just about the market and I find any different view extremely disappointing.
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RyanT
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#144
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#144
(Original post by miv)
Turkey is unstable itself, you may let me repeat, it doesn't just border unstable countries...In 2009 militarists almost attempted a coup d'etat and when a state is at this level, I'm pretty sure it is far from european culture and from what Europe needs at a time anyway, I would support the memberships of Albania and Montenegro more easily than this. Europe is mainly about Democracy, not just about the market and I find any different view extremely disappointing.
+1

If we have to have a token Muslim country then Albania and Kosovo will both do nicely. At least they're actually European.
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Teaddict
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#145
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(Original post by Tamora)
I'm against Turkey's application. Every time the EU enlarges or widens it also deepens. It has happened every time.

Also Turkey shares borders with some pretty unstable countries, which would become EU borders. Our armed forces would be be obligated to defend them as part of the British backed Common Security and Defence Policy.

I doubt Iceland will be joining the EU. It's people are very independent and it will be their decision. No backing out of referendums for Iceland.
Iceland won't be joining because they owe us money :mmm:
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Barden
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#146
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(Original post by mathew551)
As long as we don't receive a massive immigration wave from that country...

We wouldn't, most of the Turkish diaspora is in Germany.
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Tamora
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#147
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(Original post by Teaddict)
Iceland won't be joining because they owe us money :mmm:
Iceland won't be joining because the Icelandic people probably don't want to. That was the situation before the banking collapse and it hasn't changed.
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sarpkaya
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#148
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As a Turkish, benefits of EU for me would be:
I'd be able to buy stuff from other EU countries without paying any tax in customs.
I'd be able to travel in EU countries without visa including Britain(currently only officers can visit Schengen area up to 90 days in 180 days period, Schengen area excludes Britain)
I'd be able to study with less money in UK(but I won't study in UK anyways)

For the people who are concerned for immigration.
Those are mainly people who does not earn any money or wants to earn more money. Most of them already migrated. So you don't have to concern if you're thinking that there'll be so many immigrants.

Of course there will be some disadvantages for Turkey such as the economy.

There are some bias about Turkish people.
Not all of us are tanned. For example: I'm white skinned, green eyed, brown haired person. Generally tanned people are from the Eastern part of Turkey where the economy the worst.
Most of the people who are migrating in Turkey are from east part of Turkey because the government does not fund anything in eastern part, that's why people in east of Turkey are mostly uneducated and rude etc...
In Turkey, most of the Turkish people does not like Turkish immigrants in Germany due to their stupidity(not all of them are stupid but most of them)
If you compare Turkish immigrants in USA and Germany, you will clearly understand the difference of educated and non-educated Turkish people.
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Aphotic Cosmos
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#149
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(Original post by Tamora)
I'm against Turkey's application. Every time the EU enlarges or widens it also deepens. It has happened every time.

Also Turkey shares borders with some pretty unstable countries, which would become EU borders. Our armed forces would be be obligated to defend them as part of the British backed Common Security and Defence Policy.

I doubt Iceland will be joining the EU. Its people are very independent and it will be their decision. No backing out of referendums for Iceland.

[punctuation correction]
Turkey maintains the second largest military in NATO - they have a huge, well-funded, supremely competent military that is well-embedded in Turkish society. Seriously, if Turkey gets attacked then they're more than able to defend themselves. Our troops would just be there because they were obligated to be.

Iceland will join the EU because it's an economic necessity for them, and they've successfully negotiated (from what I hear) around the tricky issue of fisheries.

Anyway, I fully support Turkey being in the EU. It's a proud, beautiful, secular nation with a lot to offer and a lot to gain if it were to become part of the EU. All this cultural militancy is ridiculous - do we have many things in common with Slovenia? Hungary? Estonia? We still happily accepted them into the fold (and rightly so). All of a sudden because we're looking at accepting a nation comprised largely of "BROWN MUZZIES!1!!11" (which is itself an incorrect stereotype - Turks are far from homogeneous in looks or beliefs) then all of Europe will be aflame and race riots will stain our streets red with blood. :rolleyes: If immigration is controlled initially, as it was with Bulgaria and Romania, then accepting such a large nation need not be a problem for Western Europe.

Turkey's history has been entwined with that of Europe from the days of the wars with Byzantium. It is inexorable that Turkey will move closer to Europe as it develops, and we should seek to develop that relationship into a warm, prosperous one to strengthen the EU as a whole.
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Aphotic Cosmos
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#150
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(Original post by pinstripe306)
I can give you some:

1. It is not rational to grant 70+ million poor Turkish people access to a small island like the United Kingdom. This will only lead to racial tension which in turn increases islamophobia in the UK.
If you think that 70 million+ out of a population of 76.5 million+ are poor, you've obviously never been to Turkey. There is poverty in the East, but the Aegean coast, Ankara and Turkish Thrace are all rolling in it.

Transitional controls similar to those employed for Bulgaria and Romania can be employed to limit the initial migration of Turks to other EU states, and as we've seen 6 years on after the 2004 enlargement, many people are only here temporarily and will return home in time.

As for Islamophobia, it doesn't particularly matter how prevalent it is as long as it's still present. To cure it we have to better educate the population and get rid of crap like the Daily Express.

2. 97% of Turkey is in ASIA so why are they joining the EUROPEAN union?
Cyprus is unquestionably in Asia by any geographical definition, and they're in the EU. Turkey has been involved directly and hugely in European history for over half a millennium - that's sufficient for me to consider them culturally European, or at the very least a mix between the European and Islamic cultures.

Oh yes, and that 3% is a very important 3%. Istanbul? Turkish Thrace is terribly important to their economy.

3. It's not a matter of hating Islam but simply that the Islamic culture does not match with the British Culture. A very practical example would be one might not like the sight of mosques.
Any culture can mingle with any other, given time and tolerance on both sides.

As for mosques, most mosques in the UK are built in a local style and aren't very obtrusive.

4. There are enough kebab shops.
You can never have enough kebab shops.
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Tamora
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#151
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(Original post by Aphotic Cosmos)
Turkey maintains the second largest military in NATO - they have a huge, well-funded, supremely competent military that is well-embedded in Turkish society. Seriously, if Turkey gets attacked then they're more than able to defend themselves. Our troops would just be there because they were obligated to be.
Precisely. Our troops would be there because they would be obligated. And we once had a huge competent military before we started working with other EU member states. Who’s to say the same thing won’t happen with Turkey? We are to have a common defence force.
Iceland will join the EU because it's an economic necessity for them, and they've successfully negotiated (from what I hear) around the tricky issue of fisheries.
That’s up to the Icelandic people to decide. Opinion polls consistently show they don’t want to join, and they don't feel the issue of fisheries has been solved at all.
Anyway, I fully support Turkey being in the EU. It's a proud, beautiful, secular nation with a lot to offer and a lot to gain if it were to become part of the EU. All this cultural militancy is ridiculous - do we have many things in common with Slovenia? Hungary? Estonia? We still happily accepted them into the fold (and rightly so). All of a sudden because we're looking at accepting a nation comprised largely of "BROWN MUZZIES!1!!11" (which is itself an incorrect stereotype - Turks are far from homogeneous in looks or beliefs) then all of Europe will be aflame and race riots will stain our streets red with blood. If immigration is controlled initially, as it was with Bulgaria and Romania, then accepting such a large nation need not be a problem for Western Europe.
Your choice and I agree with some of what you say. But you happily accepted the other countries you mention. You can’t speak for the rest of the population who have never been asked. Europhiles seem to have a mental block about stuff like this. I know all Turks are not the same, but it’s likely that significant numbers will form ghettoes the way other nationals do. It’s human nature.

I think we have enough cultural clashes in this country now without giving more than 70 million Turks the right to live here too. Immigration will be partially controlled for as long as it suits the EU. That’s not good enough for me and I doubt it will be good enough for the British electorate either.

Turkey's history has been entwined with that of Europe from the days of the wars with Byzantium. It is inexorable that Turkey will move closer to Europe as it develops, and we should seek to develop that relationship into a warm, prosperous one to strengthen the EU as a whole.
I have no problem with Turkey moving closer to Europe, but there are signs it is also moving closer to the Syria and Iran. May be it will be the bridge between East and West. No one yet knows, but let it move closer to Europe before we take it into the EU.
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Tamora
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#152
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(Original post by Aphotic Cosmos)

As for Islamophobia, it doesn't particularly matter how prevalent it is as long as it's still present. To cure it we have to better educate the population and get rid of crap like the Daily Express.
Not much for freedom of the press, are you?
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pinstripe306
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#153
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(Original post by Aphotic Cosmos)
If you think that 70 million+ out of a population of 76.5 million+ are poor, you've obviously never been to Turkey. There is poverty in the East, but the Aegean coast, Ankara and Turkish Thrace are all rolling in it.

Transitional controls similar to those employed for Bulgaria and Romania can be employed to limit the initial migration of Turks to other EU states, and as we've seen 6 years on after the 2004 enlargement, many people are only here temporarily and will return home in time.

As for Islamophobia, it doesn't particularly matter how prevalent it is as long as it's still present. To cure it we have to better educate the population and get rid of crap like the Daily Express.



Cyprus is unquestionably in Asia by any geographical definition, and they're in the EU. Turkey has been involved directly and hugely in European history for over half a millennium - that's sufficient for me to consider them culturally European, or at the very least a mix between the European and Islamic cultures.

Oh yes, and that 3% is a very important 3%. Istanbul? Turkish Thrace is terribly important to their economy.



Any culture can mingle with any other, given time and tolerance on both sides.

As for mosques, most mosques in the UK are built in a local style and aren't very obtrusive.



You can never have enough kebab shops.

Your response is pretty much the official line taken by professional politicians - that being you try to ignore the key facts.

1. With Turkey joining the EU there will unarguably be extended pressure on housing, social services and jobs thereby causing social and economical problems for Britain amongst France and Germany.

2. Britain is a Christian country and with Turkey joining the EU there will be even more physical changes to ordinary and traditional towns and villages; the example I gave was with mosque and the fact that people do not like the look of it. The pace of such change is too great which naturally leads to people being intimidated.

3. Turkey is not in Europe NOR is Cyprus. Two wrong does not make one right. However, Cyprus' impact on Britain although cannot be said to be positive, is at least not as negative as it would be when Turkey joins.
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Teaddict
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#154
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(Original post by Aphotic Cosmos)
Turkey maintains the second largest military in NATO - they have a huge, well-funded, supremely competent military that is well-embedded in Turkish society. Seriously, if Turkey gets attacked then they're more than able to defend themselves. Our troops would just be there because they were obligated to be.

Iceland will join the EU because it's an economic necessity for them, and they've successfully negotiated (from what I hear) around the tricky issue of fisheries.

Anyway, I fully support Turkey being in the EU. It's a proud, beautiful, secular nation with a lot to offer and a lot to gain if it were to become part of the EU. All this cultural militancy is ridiculous - do we have many things in common with Slovenia? Hungary? Estonia? We still happily accepted them into the fold (and rightly so). All of a sudden because we're looking at accepting a nation comprised largely of "BROWN MUZZIES!1!!11" (which is itself an incorrect stereotype - Turks are far from homogeneous in looks or beliefs) then all of Europe will be aflame and race riots will stain our streets red with blood. If immigration is controlled initially, as it was with Bulgaria and Romania, then accepting such a large nation need not be a problem for Western Europe.

Turkey's history has been entwined with that of Europe from the days of the wars with Byzantium. It is inexorable that Turkey will move closer to Europe as it develops, and we should seek to develop that relationship into a warm, prosperous one to strengthen the EU as a whole.
Absolutely right.
Not only has Turkey been historically involved in European affairs, but even now, Turkey is a great military partner and can continue to be as such.

Turkey is not yet ready to join the EU, however, to rule out Turkish membership straight away is ridiculous. Turkey has a lot of things that it must first tackle to complete the accession criteria, and the European Union; especially Britain, should help in what way we can.

Turkey has the potential to be a fantastic market and military partner. Turkish accession will also lead to mass reforms of CAP; which are needed.
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Don_Scott
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#155
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(Original post by Teaddict)
Absolutely right.
Not only has Turkey been historically involved in European affairs, but even now, Turkey is a great military partner and can continue to be as such.

Turkey is not yet ready to join the EU, however, to rule out Turkish membership straight away is ridiculous. Turkey has a lot of things that it must first tackle to complete the accession criteria, and the European Union; especially Britain, should help in what way we can.

Turkey has the potential to be a fantastic market and military partner. Turkish accession will also lead to mass reforms of CAP; which are needed.
Turkey has historically been involved in European affairs, because she was fighting the Europeans.
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maljebo
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#156
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(Original post by Don_Scott)
Turkey has historically been involved in European affairs, because she was fighting the Europeans.
hmmm, i've always pictured Turkey as a guy:holmes:
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