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    <3 Twilgightt
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    There is no defence for Twilight. The characters are flat and undeveloped and the characters which could have been good, like Rosalie, don't get developed enough because Meyer is too busy describing Edward's godly looks. Yeah vampires are made up so you can have 'em how you want, but you get Dracula and Edward together and Dracula would be like 'Hey dude. I bite women and feed their blood so I can control them and get revenge on my enemies. What do you do?' and Edward would be like 'Well i'm a vegetarian vampire and I stop myself feeding on blood so I can listen to my girlfriend say I look like Adonis and gawk at my body which looks like it's been sculpted by angels' Lame times :') Bad characters, purple prose and silly messages it gives out to teenage girls aside, I guess, in spite of my personal dislike, I can see the appeal and it doesn't really take itself seriously and it just meant to entertain teenagers. It's some of the odd obsessive fans that have the issues, not the book :P

    Oh one last point. The whole imprinting thing is creepy 0.o
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    You know what feminism isn't about? It's not about waking up after having sex with your boyfriend and being covered in bruises.
    The girl has a point. Feminism is about being free to do what you want without prejudice based on physical gender.

    Some people like rough sex, some people like really rough sex and some people just want the **** kicked clean out of them during sex. Doesn't mean they are anti-feminist.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    The girl has a point. Feminism is about being free to do what you want without prejudice based on physical gender.
    Sure it is- but it's also about much, much more than that. And considering what a huge issue rape and domestic violence is, the glamourisation of sexual violence in teenage literature is very much anti-feminist, and shouldn't be celebrated.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    The girl has a point. Feminism is about being free to do what you want without prejudice based on physical gender.
    .


    So as long as nobody judges her for gender; a woman being anti-feminist is somehow feminist? :lolwut:

    I don't think so. That sounds like the foggy, claptrap definition of feminism propogated by Meyer when justifying the frankly repulsive themes of her book. (Namely Mormon fanfiction and all the patriarchal dogma that goes with it.)
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    I far preferred watching these two going at it over that sparkly idiot and dumb bint.

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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    So as long as nobody judges her for gender; a woman being anti-feminist is somehow feminist? :lolwut:

    I don't think so. That sounds like the foggy, claptrap definition of feminism propogated by Meyer when justifying the frankly repulsive themes of her book. (Namely Mormon fanfiction and all the patriarchal dogma that goes with it.)
    Not so much defending Meyer as pointing out what Feminism is, if only in part. Sure there are multiple strands of Feminism, but the freedom to do what you want is a big one.


    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Sure it is- but it's also about much, much more than that. And considering what a huge issue rape and domestic violence is, the glamourisation of sexual violence in teenage literature is very much anti-feminist, and shouldn't be celebrated.
    I haven't read far enough into the books to be able to judge whether it's rape or domestic abuse that gets portrayed. If it is, fair enough. If it's just violent sex, then you're going overboard. Equating violent sex to abuse or rape is what makes BDSM a lot more dangerous, because it stigmatises practitioners and can push them away from seeking help if they truly do get hurt. We already suffer from a law making visible marks illegal, let's not equate us with rapists or abusers, please.
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    There are sexually frustrated girls out there looking for an outlet?


    ...I'll get my coat.
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    This thread needs more glitter.
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    Telling elitist hipsters that Twilight will always be more successful than anything they've ever written down is a very amusing way to piss them off.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Not so much defending Meyer as pointing out what Feminism is, if only in part. Sure there are multiple strands of Feminism, but the freedom to do what you want is a big one.




    I haven't read far enough into the books to be able to judge whether it's rape or domestic abuse that gets portrayed. If it is, fair enough. If it's just violent sex, then you're going overboard. Equating violent sex to abuse or rape is what makes BDSM a lot more dangerous, because it stigmatises practitioners and can push them away from seeking help if they truly do get hurt. We already suffer from a law making visible marks illegal, let's not equate us with rapists or abusers, please.
    They're fictional characters- obviously I'm not trying to equate anyone with being a rapist or an abuser. Real life people can do whatever they want in the privacy of their own bedrooms. But this isn't a real life person, this is a narrative, and it's essentially antifeminist, with strong undertones of sexual violence throughout.

    If you meant that you haven't read that far in the series- basically, Edward and Bella lose their virginities to each other, and because Edward's so strong and can't help himself or whatever Bella wakes up covered in bruises.

    I won't go into details about my sex life, but I have nothing against rough sex, or 'leaving marks'. I do, however, have issues with the portrayal of sex as violent to- I repeat- teenage girls. Kids read this ****. And considering the problematic fascination girls already having with hurting themselves and being hurt, I don't think this should be encouraged by the illustration of a 'perfect boyfriend' who not only is controlling, who follows Bella around and watches her sleep, but who leaves her bruised when they have sex. Not because she asks him to, but because he can't help himself.

    I know this thread was me defending Twilight to an extent- but I would never defend values like that.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Not so much defending Meyer as pointing out what Feminism is, if only in part. Sure there are multiple strands of Feminism, but the freedom to do what you want is a big one.

    No it really isn't. Because then a vehemently anti-feminist woman would be a feminist. It is paradoxical. That is not feminism although perhaps it is a common misinterpretation.
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    I'm beginning to get the feeling that we're going to disagree on everything. We'd make such a great couple. Especially if you like a bit of kink. :teeth:

    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    They're fictional characters- obviously I'm not trying to equate anyone with being a rapist or an abuser. Real life people can do whatever they want in the privacy of their own bedrooms. But this isn't a real life person, this is a narrative, and it's essentially antifeminist, with strong undertones of sexual violence throughout.

    If you meant that you haven't read that far in the series- basically, Edward and Bella lose their virginities to each other, and because Edward's so strong and can't help himself or whatever Bella wakes up covered in bruises.
    To be perfectly honest, that sounds quite vanilla. You also can't just separate narrative and reality when the narrative is trying to remain slightly true to reality. They might be characters, but they're set in this world so they fall under the same rules as real people. It might be antifeminist, or it could be profeminist, though I'm inclined to believe it's neither.


    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    I won't go into details about my sex life, but I have nothing against rough sex, or 'leaving marks'. I do, however, have issues with the portrayal of sex as violent to- I repeat- teenage girls. Kids read this ****. And considering the problematic fascination girls already having with hurting themselves and being hurt, I don't think this should be encouraged by the illustration of a 'perfect boyfriend' who not only is controlling, who follows Bella around and watches her sleep, but who leaves her bruised when they have sex. Not because she asks him to, but because he can't help himself.
    And I was reading adult fiction when I was 4, big whoop. Teenagers know quite a lot about this stuff. Bella is 17 when the books start, that means they're originally aimed at mid-teens. In other words people who are already exploring sex. Porn and the rest will have shown them, or at least they will have heard of, BDSM and all that it entails.

    You can't blame Meyer for the age of the person reading it, so if kids end up reading it, it's hardly her fault as she was aiming it at an older audience, one who will be dealing with such issues. Or maybe I was an early bloomer.

    The way you describe it there, it sounds like a horrid relationship, but also quite realistic. Anne Rice has had similar issues when describing her vampires as they got stronger and stronger and dealt with frailer beings. They ended up hurting people without meaning to, people they cared for. Obviously they weren't stalkers like Edward sounds to be, but still. Got to give her a bit of leaway.

    Incidentally, what does this say about that female sexuality you were arguing is being tapped "for the first time"? If such an abusive relationship resounds within the souls of girls across the world.


    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    I know this thread was me defending Twilight to an extent- but I would never defend values like that.
    Nyah, never said you were.



    (Original post by Aeolus)
    No it really isn't. Because then a vehemently anti-feminist woman would be a feminist. It is paradoxical. That is not feminism although perhaps it is a common misinterpretation.
    So, you're saying there isn't a huge strand of Feminist literature that essentially says people should be free to do what they want without having to feel guilty or suffer prejudice from others? Riiiiigght. You need to go do some research into Feminism. Like I said, I'm not defending Meyer, just pointing out that Feminism does stand for freedom of choice without fear of any form of reprisal. If that involves rough sex, then so be it.

    That does not absolve Meyer of being anti-feminist in any shape or form. You're taking my comment out of context.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    I'm beginning to get the feeling that we're going to disagree on everything. We'd make such a great couple. Especially if you like a bit of kink. :teeth:
    lul.


    (Original post by Hylean)
    And I was reading adult fiction when I was 4, big whoop. Teenagers know quite a lot about this stuff. Bella is 17 when the books start, that means they're originally aimed at mid-teens. In other words people who are already exploring sex. Porn and the rest will have shown them, or at least they will have heard of, BDSM and all that it entails.

    You can't blame Meyer for the age of the person reading it, so if kids end up reading it, it's hardly her fault as she was aiming it at an older audience, one who will be dealing with such issues. Or maybe I was an early bloomer.

    The way you describe it there, it sounds like a horrid relationship, but also quite realistic. Anne Rice has had similar issues when describing her vampires as they got stronger and stronger and dealt with frailer beings. They ended up hurting people without meaning to, people they cared for. Obviously they weren't stalkers like Edward sounds to be, but still. Got to give her a bit of leaway.

    The books are marketed at teenage girls- so you kind of can blame Meyer for that.

    I have no problem with authors portraying the gritty, sinister, sometimes unpleasant nature of life, sex and relationships. I think it's great when kids authors don't shy away from real life stuff. I would have no problem with a writer of teen books portraying stuff like abuse and sexual violence.

    What I do have a massive problem with, however, is the kind of glamourisation and eroticisation of sexual violence that happens in Twilight. Meyers books don't just show this kind of relationship, they promote it. The whole premise of the books is that Edward is fab, Bella is fab, and their relationship is the sort of thing people should aim for. This is entirely different from a book that simply 'realistically' shows the dynamics, difficulties and nuances of a sexually violent relationship. This is actively promoting it.


    (Original post by Hylean)
    Incidentally, what does this say about that female sexuality you were arguing is being tapped "for the first time"? If such an abusive relationship resounds within the souls of girls across the world.
    Not girls across the world as such, but I think that, yeah, things like hurting yourself, being hurt, being powerless, being 'taken', and sexual violence in general are things that really resonate with western teenage girls- and older women too, to a lesser extent- and I think this is a massive problem.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Yes, as a literary work, Twilight sucks. But it obviously taps into something really powerful. There's this huge undercurrent of sexual frustration in girls and women, and I think it's amazing that something like this one trashy teenage girls book can cause such a HUGE effect. Meyer has tapped into something important that teenage girls and women feel, and that's not to be sniffed at.)
    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    considering what a huge issue rape and domestic violence is, the glamourisation of sexual violence in teenage literature is very much anti-feminist, and shouldn't be celebrated.
    (Original post by Hylean)
    what does this say about that female sexuality you were arguing is being tapped "for the first time"? If such an abusive relationship resounds within the souls of girls across the world.
    Right, I'm having some trouble following the OP's line of argument here. Twilight taps into something important, that's worth taking notice of, except those bits which don't fit in with feminism, which we should ignore? I'm not even trying to be funny here, I find a lot of feminist discourse genuinely confusing. Should books for girls celebrate big, strong, controlling men, as in Jane Eyre, Mills and Boon, Twilight, and whatever else? Or shouldn't they? Maybe they should only be celebrated as long as they are big, strong and controlling mentally, not physically? I genuinely don't get it.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    lul.
    How you doin'?


    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    The books are marketed at teenage girls- so you kind of can blame Meyer for that.

    I have no problem with authors portraying the gritty, sinister, sometimes unpleasant nature of life, sex and relationships. I think it's great when kids authors don't shy away from real life stuff. I would have no problem with a writer of teen books portraying stuff like abuse and sexual violence.

    What I do have a massive problem with, however, is the kind of glamourisation and eroticisation of sexual violence that happens in Twilight. Meyers books don't just show this kind of relationship, they promote it. The whole premise of the books is that Edward is fab, Bella is fab, and their relationship is the sort of thing people should aim for. This is entirely different from a book that simply 'realistically' shows the dynamics, difficulties and nuances of a sexually violent relationship. This is actively promoting it.
    By realistic, I was meaning how vampires tend to forget their strength, etc. Not the difficulties of BDSM and all its connected interests.


    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Not girls across the world as such, but I think that, yeah, things like hurting yourself, being hurt, being powerless, being 'taken', and sexual violence in general are things that really resonate with western teenage girls- and older women too, to a lesser extent- and I think this is a massive problem.
    Why should that be a problem? You're acting as if such fetishes and desires are wrong. They're not. They're perfectly normal. Research suggests that one of the most popular female fantasies is the rape fantasy because they enjoy the feeling of being totally dominated. Some psychologists argue they enjoy being dominated because they feel they have too much power in the real lives. Whilst the rape fantasy isn't as common for men, male subs are exceptionally common for similar reasons.

    They're not just related to women, it's a human thing.
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    I dont like it all that much tbh,

    Its a load of over dramatic purple prose.
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    (Original post by James Gregory)
    Right, I'm having some trouble following the OP's line of argument here. Twilight taps into something important, that's worth taking notice of, except those bits which don't fit in with feminism, which we should ignore? I'm not even trying to be funny here, I find a lot of feminist discourse genuinely confusing. Should books for girls should celebrate big, strong, controlling men, as in Jane Eyre, Mills and Boon, Twilight, and whatever else? Or shouldn't they? Maybe they should only be celebrated as long as they are big, strong and controlling mentally, not physically? I genuinely don't get it.

    No, I think it's the bits that don't fit in with feminism that we should take notice of.

    I think the reasons Twilight is very important and the reasons Twilight is anti-feminist are very similar. Twilight reveals in a generation of girls and women a strong sexual undercurrent, which is important, but what's also important is the nature of this sexual undercurrent.

    To put it simply, what I find important about Twilight is that it forces us to take notice of this female sexuality, and also forces us to ask questions about it. It forces us to ask the question- why is it that girls find the idea of being helpless attractive? What has society done to create a generation of girls that find sexual violence erotic?

    I don't think the values in Twilight should be celebrated, nor the depiction of sexuality. I think what's important is what Twilight reveals to us about the sexualities of the girls and women in our society.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    No, I think it's the bits that don't fit in with feminism that we should take notice of.

    I think the reasons Twilight is very important and the reasons Twilight is anti-feminist are very similar. Twilight reveals in a generation of girls and women a strong sexual undercurrent, which is important, but what's also important is the nature of this sexual undercurrent.

    To put it simply, what I find important about Twilight is that it forces us to take notice of this female sexuality, and also forces us to ask questions about it. It forces us to ask the question- why is it that girls find the idea of being helpless attractive? What has society done to create a generation of girls that find sexual violence erotic?

    I don't think the values in Twilight should be celebrated, nor the depiction of sexuality. I think what's important is what Twilight reveals to us about the sexualities of the girls and women in our society.
    Psychology would argue it's a backlash against all the personal freedoms they've been given recently. :yep:
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Why should that be a problem? You're acting as if such fetishes and desires are wrong. They're not. They're perfectly normal. Research suggests that one of the most popular female fantasies is the rape fantasy because they enjoy the feeling of being totally dominated. Some psychologists argue they enjoy being dominated because they feel they have too much power in the real lives. Whilst the rape fantasy isn't as common for men, male subs are exceptionally common for similar reasons.

    They're not just related to women, it's a human thing.
    I don't have a problem with people's consensual sex lives- but I think it's naive to think that what people desire sexually is completely unrelated to any other part of their life, and that it isn't gendered or socialised.

    For example, I think it's naive to think that a sexual obsession with hurting oneself, being hurt, or hurting other people won't play out into other parts of their lives. Because it usually does. The way someone views themselves sexually is so important to our identity, and it's absolutely related to things such as eating disorders, or self harm, or destructive sexual behaviour. And I think it would be naive to say that the extremely high number of rapes and sexual assaults in our society have nothing to do with the glamourisation of sexual violence in our society.
 
 
 
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