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Water Cannon at Student Demos? Conservatives Say NO... Watch

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    (Original post by Aj12)
    When you have a crowd being pushed against you, some attacking you others screaming abuse at you and a few who just are in the wrong place its very difficult to tell these groups of people apart.

    So the police hit a few people on the legs and arms as they are trained to and shove people back, the protesters respond by throwing blocks of concrete and picking up metal fencing to try and hit police in the face. Thats a bit more than going over the top and shoving someone back to hard
    It's easy. I put my hands up, loads of other people did. I had a baton across my ribs and shoved in return. It hurts, I cried out in pain.

    As they are trained to do. I saw at least 5 people with serious head injuries being treated or being helped by fellow protesters; bleeding, dazed and confused. Let's not forget Alfie, or Blair Peach. Or Ian.

    Not saying I agree with the metal fence, but they were hardly in serious danger. I was a few feet to the side of the metal fence which was being shoved, and the police officers were fine behind their riot shields and full face helmets.
    The fence was actually quite flimsy, the middle mesh bit is nothing, the only dangerous bit was the outer bit that holds it all together, and it was falling apart even before they started to use it to shove.

    And let's not forget the officers who refuse to put number badges back on. When I asked one "why don't you put your number badge back on", he said "put it on yourself". Others simply didn't even have them on.
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    (Original post by jb9191)
    *
    Some say "Revenge Is A Dish Best Served Cold"
    Some say "Revenge Is Sweet"

    So using logic I've come to the conclusion that

    "Revenge Is Ice Cream"
    Your sig, haha.
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    (Original post by jb9191)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot_gun

    They can pick out targets with precision to arrest later and it will not hurt innocent people.

    Pepperball rounds
    Pepper-spray projectiles, commonly called pepperballs[2], are direct-fire paintball-like capsules filled with a pepper spray solution of capsaicin. They provide a longer range, more user-friendly way to disperse pepper spray. Many sorts can be fired from paintball markers. Other sorts are designed to be fired from specially-designed pepperball guns whose muzzle velocity is greater than a paintball marker: if the velocity is not high enough the projectile will not break. As a paintball impact is mildly painful, it can discourage rioters by itself, but the pepper spray incapacitates and discourages a larger number of rioters with each shot.

    Problem sorted. Hitting students with full force blows in the head is not the answer, neither is charging at them with horses like a scene out of the 300.
    But you complained they came prepared for a riot, therefore wouldn't this be the same?

    The problem with using pepper spray is that people will complain about it in the same way they complain about baton use. It may be direct fire, but as soon as there is a small amount of wind, everyone around the target will be on their knees in pain from the vapours. This is particularly concerning if people were complaining about a lack of water provision this time round.

    I spoke to a police officer about 8 years ago who sat down with a group of us in a park. We got onto the convo of whether he would rather be hit by a truncheon or sprayed with his pepper spray. He didn't even have to think about it, truncheon won hands down! Fair enough it shows its effective, but its just as, if not more indiscriminate than the use of batons.

    I think this discussion really does highlight that there are always going to be health risks with any type of crowd control measure. It's just determining which is the most effective, without leaving protesters in hospital needing brain surgery.
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    (Original post by ChrisBan)
    But you complained they came prepared for a riot, therefore wouldn't this be the same?

    No because the violence they displayed with batons, horses and shields was indiscriminate whereas they should use the paint ball guns and target the serious offenders - of which there were very very few. The majority of violence was started by the police and then the students started to break breeze blocks and other items in the street to retaliate. The students did not turn up with weapons - if they did come looking for violence they would have brought serious weapons.

    The problem with using pepper spray is that people will complain about it in the same way they complain about baton use. It may be direct fire, but as soon as there is a small amount of wind, everyone around the target will be on their knees in pain from the vapours. This is particularly concerning if people were complaining about a lack of water provision this time round.

    Pepper spray is very unlikely to cause very serious injuries whereas a baton strike to the head, neck or back area can seriously mess you up. This was evident by the student that needed a life saving operation. Also, the paint ball rounds have markers that leave a mark on the direct target. So therefore, the initial target will be marked and then the other students will disperse away to get away from the pepper spray - its at this point the police can rush in on the target hit to apprehend him/her. No one is going to stand around a student that has just been hit by a pepper spray capsule. Its clearly a proven indiscriminate method.

    I spoke to a police officer about 8 years ago who sat down with a group of us in a park. We got onto the convo of whether he would rather be hit by a truncheon or sprayed with his pepper spray. He didn't even have to think about it, truncheon won hands down! Fair enough it shows its effective, but its just as, if not more indiscriminate than the use of batons.

    The majority would rather be pepper sprayed than be hit by a truncheon that can cause very serious physical injuries. Pepper spray does affect the protesters around the target, you are right, but once the target is hit and marked then those will move away from him to get out of the pepper sprayed area and leave the target open to get arrested. It makes far more sense than just punching or hitting everyone with a truncheon - especially when some of those are only teenagers or people wanting to go home or to the toilet. Also, the presence of pepper spray guns will stop people causing violence because they know they are more likely to get hit - which will then see them arrested due to being marked so even if the police do not instantly apprehend the person they can when they filter out the protesters later on in the day. The only way that protester will remove the mark is by taking his/her clothes off - therefore, anyone with removed clothing should be regarded as being a hit target or criminal.

    I think this discussion really does highlight that there are always going to be health risks with any type of crowd control measure. It's just determining which is the most effective, without leaving protesters in hospital needing brain surgery.
    Truncheons can cause brain injuries or leave you seriously damaged whereas pepper spray just leaves you out of sorts and it is classed as non lethal agent. Yes it can cause death due to certain reactions to it but the use of a truncheon plus brutality is far more likely to injure a protester. Pepper Spray is also regarded as a self defensive weapon whereas a truncheon is usually used to attack.
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    (Original post by jb9191)
    Truncheons can cause brain injuries or leave you seriously damaged whereas pepper spray just leaves you out of sorts and it is classed as non lethal agent. Yes it can cause death due to certain reactions to it but the use of a truncheon plus brutality is far more likely to injure a protester. Pepper Spray is also regarded as a self defensive weapon whereas a truncheon is usually used to attack.
    I think the use of pepper spray will piss people off just as much. I also don't think going into a hostile crowd to extract a suspect is favoured by the police, and could also lead to an increase in hostility.
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    Why is there so much violence in the world?
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    (Original post by F i s)
    Why is there so much violence in the world?
    Are you a member of the Black Eyed Peas?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpYeekQkAdc
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    (Original post by jb9191)
    Are you a member of the Black Eyed Peas?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpYeekQkAdc
    Yes.

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    (Original post by ChrisBan)
    You don't go to a protest for anything but violent purpose if you have a home made riotshield... probably most strongly highlighted from about 50 seconds in this video

    funny how they have homemade shields and decide to charge the police with them

    You sound almost surprised that the police turned up with a baton each? They were hardly going to stand there handing out flowers and hugs.
    LOL! This is money. Although I kinda wish they did
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    (Original post by jb9191)
    Truncheons can cause brain injuries or leave you seriously damaged whereas pepper spray just leaves you out of sorts and it is classed as non lethal agent. Yes it can cause death due to certain reactions to it but the use of a truncheon plus brutality is far more likely to injure a protester. Pepper Spray is also regarded as a self defensive weapon whereas a truncheon is usually used to attack.
    But pepper spray isn't intended for crowd control. It's intended to be used in situations between two or three people when there is a need to bring under physical control to arrest. Pepper spray gets lots of blow back onto the officers that use them and if your in a massive crowd could incapacitate 3 or 4 police officers just to spray one protester who they don't even want to arrest. It's really ineffective and is only used sparingly.
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    (Original post by JMG89)
    Also why should they search you??? Until you have committed a crime they have no right to search you. Have you seen the work of the Love Police on youtube??? The guy is brilliant, really good social commentary about how those in Authority think they can boss you around when you haven't done anything wrong.
    Well yes, that was my understanding.
    I'm sure that officer understood the law too.
    Was it a threat or to make me feel intimidated or what?

    No, but I will look it up. :-)

    Thanks for your references too, will look up
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    Camerons playing it cool, i'll give him that the prat. But he's just trying to make the Cons seem the "decent guys" and shift the blame onto the Lib Dems when the police do start using tougher tactics.

    Please for god sake, no one start thinking the Torries are good, they're all about authority and rules and hierachy.
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    (Original post by S129439)
    But pepper spray isn't intended for crowd control. It's intended to be used in situations between two or three people when there is a need to bring under physical control to arrest. Pepper spray gets lots of blow back onto the officers that use them and if your in a massive crowd could incapacitate 3 or 4 police officers just to spray one protester who they don't even want to arrest. It's really ineffective and is only used sparingly.
    All they need to do is in effect make a pepper spray cannon, or a Mace cannon and subdue the violent individuals and groups like that - In a sort of giant cologne mechanism fashion, spray it right at the front of the police line.

    Not TOO much though, a 3 second burst to incapacitate a couple dozen people
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    (Original post by S129439)
    But pepper spray isn't intended for crowd control. It's intended to be used in situations between two or three people when there is a need to bring under physical control to arrest. Pepper spray gets lots of blow back onto the officers that use them and if your in a massive crowd could incapacitate 3 or 4 police officers just to spray one protester who they don't even want to arrest. It's really ineffective and is only used sparingly.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray


    'Pepper spray, also known as OC spray (from "Oleoresin Capsicum"), OC gas, and capsicum spray, is a lachrymatory agent (a chemical compound that irritates the eyes to cause tears, pain, and even temporary blindness) that is used in riot control, crowd control, and personal self-defence, including defence against dogs and bears.'

    'Pepper spray typically comes in canisters, which are often small enough to be carried or concealed in a pocket or purse. Pepper spray can also be bought concealed in items such as rings. There are also pepper spray projectiles available, which can be fired from a paintball gun. It has been used for years against demonstrators.'


    Are you calling Wikipedia a liar? :eek:
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    (Original post by lukejoshjedi)
    All they need to do is in effect make a pepper spray cannon, or a Mace cannon and subdue the violent individuals and groups like that - In a sort of giant cologne mechanism fashion, spray it right at the front of the police line.

    Not TOO much though, a 3 second burst to incapacitate a couple dozen people
    They already have them and that is what I'm saying they should use.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper-spray_projectile

    A pepper-spray projectile, also called a pepper-spray ball, or pepper-spray pellet is a projectile weapon made up of a powdered chemical that irritates eyes and nose (see pepper spray). These less-lethal weapons launch a fragile ball which breaks upon impact and releases a super irritant powder called PAVA (capsaicin II) pepper.
    The launchers are often slightly modified .68 caliber paintball guns. Most of these guns are Tippmann pro-carbines or similar and are set to fire in the 350ft/s range. The systems are generally contact safe and target accurate within 60 feet and have an effective range that provides area saturation with PAVA within a 200 foot range.

    These guns can be loaded with paintballs to mark rioters so they can later be identified and arrested.

    The police should definitely use these rather than hit them in the heads with truncheons.
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    (Original post by jb9191)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray


    'Pepper spray, also known as OC spray (from "Oleoresin Capsicum"), OC gas, and capsicum spray, is a lachrymatory agent (a chemical compound that irritates the eyes to cause tears, pain, and even temporary blindness) that is used in riot control, crowd control, and personal self-defence, including defence against dogs and bears.'

    'Pepper spray typically comes in canisters, which are often small enough to be carried or concealed in a pocket or purse. Pepper spray can also be bought concealed in items such as rings. There are also pepper spray projectiles available, which can be fired from a paintball gun. It has been used for years against demonstrators.'


    Are you calling Wikipedia a liar? :eek:
    Usually I would but not here

    It is mainly used as 'personal self defence' as that article says. Using it in massive crowds outdoors doesn't work.

    It's not effective in crowd/riot control. And if you had read that article properly you would see that it isn't used in the UK. For many reasons such as concerns over violent reactions resulting in deaths and the tendency to incapacitate the user. Although it's not as bad as CS gas.

    Besides part of the argument against the water cannon is that it looks bad and causes damage. What would people think of the police running around with what looks like guns firing at groups of people.
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    (Original post by jb9191)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray


    'Pepper spray, also known as OC spray (from "Oleoresin Capsicum"), OC gas, and capsicum spray, is a lachrymatory agent (a chemical compound that irritates the eyes to cause tears, pain, and even temporary blindness) that is used in riot control, crowd control, and personal self-defence, including defence against dogs and bears.'

    'Pepper spray typically comes in canisters, which are often small enough to be carried or concealed in a pocket or purse. Pepper spray can also be bought concealed in items such as rings. There are also pepper spray projectiles available, which can be fired from a paintball gun. It has been used for years against demonstrators.'


    Are you calling Wikipedia a liar? :eek:


    Pepper spray has the potential to blow back. Why incapacitate a few protesters, when you're only going to incapacitate yourself and a few of your colleagues?
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    (Original post by CitizensUnited)


    Pepper spray has the potential to blow back. Why incapacitate a few protesters, when you're only going to incapacitate yourself and a few of your colleagues?
    http://memegenerator.net/Privilege-D...ankyouverymuch

    Meme battle off

    True, True but hey, as long as everyone at the front line, including all the violent protestors and incapacitated then it's cool beans.

    What would follow would be a fairly comic scene of police officers crying and complaining, with one exclaiming "We shot it at them, why am I crying" and other variants of that sort of statement. With the more experienced police officers a way behind them watching with disdain, simutaneously facepalming
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    (Original post by CitizensUnited)


    Pepper spray has the potential to blow back. Why incapacitate a few protesters, when you're only going to incapacitate yourself and a few of your colleagues?
    That's what these are for.

    http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/mask-gas.htm

    Time for the police to go Call Of Duty style.
 
 
 
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