Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

The Republic of Ireland shoud re-join the Union Watch

    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by RandyMann)
    British arrogance.
    It appears that racist stereotyping crosses all national barriers, however.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jim666666)
    In Ulster, those who consider themselves British are so culturally different that it two separate states were created.
    A huge oversimplification to the point of falsehood for the reasons we were split.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by L i b)
    I'm sorry, but what do you actually dispute here: that Britain is a short-form name for the United Kingdom? It certainly is, and I could provide several sources to that effect. Or are you disputing that Ireland was ever part of the United Kingdom? In which case, I refer you to the Act of Union.
    I'm not disputing that Ireland was part of the U.K. The Act of Union joined Britain with Ireland, rather than mad Ireland a part of Britain as you suggest.

    (Original post by L i b)
    Believe it or not, parts of the UK have such distinctive cultural traditions too. Folk music in northern Scotland, or the valleys of Wales, or Cornwall is just as distinctive - and indeed shares a Celtic strand. Anyway, let's not forget that this is not mainstream culture: you're suggesting a vision of a Gaelic Irishness that exists to some extent in the rural west, much like the Gaelic and Welsh-speaking minority cultures in the UK. The vast majority of people in Ireland speak English daily, watch similar television programmes, are interested in the same sports as British people, attend the same plays, listen to the same music and so forth.
    While I'd agree that media is somewhat similar, sports are certainly different. The most popular sport in England, France and Africa (all of which are culturally different) is soccer, whereas the most popular sports in Ireland are football (Gaelic) and Hurling.
    Just because the same TV programmes (to some extent) are watched in Ireland it does not mean that Ireland is culturally the same as England. Indeed large parts of Africa play football, speak English and watch/ listen to the BBC - it does not mean they are culturally similar to England.




    (Original post by L i b)
    I'm afraid I don't speak Irish Gaelic, and indeed it is against the rules of this forum to post material in any language other than English without providing a translation!
    Apologies, with Ireland being so culturally similar to England I assumed you'd understand.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    In summary...

    No. If anything, Ulster should rejoin the Republic of Ireland. There are about 4-5 million people in ireland, and 25 million in SE england. Economic benefit? No... Cost of set-up? Astronomical...
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jim666666)
    I'm not disputing that Ireland was part of the U.K. The Act of Union joined Britain with Ireland, rather than mad Ireland a part of Britain as you suggest.


    While I'd agree that media is somewhat similar, sports are certainly different. The most popular sport in England, France and Africa (all of which are culturally different) is soccer, whereas the most popular sports in Ireland are football (Gaelic) and Hurling.
    Just because the same TV programmes (to some extent) are watched in Ireland it does not mean that Ireland is culturally the same as England. Indeed large parts of Africa play football, speak English and watch/ listen to the BBC - it does not mean they are culturally similar to England.





    Apologies, with Ireland being so culturally similar to England I assumed you'd understand.
    Hear hear!
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    I would given Northern Ireland away and then watch as Ireland tears itself to pieces.

    I'd then laugh - a lot.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by L i b)
    Well, let's not forget that it was a Norman invasion, not an English one, that created the close cultural proximity between England and Ireland. England was also invaded, yet oddly enough we do not consider their influence as 'foreign' in the modern era, as it appears many Irish nationalists regard their own Norman aristocracy.

    As for acquisition of Ireland: Ireland entered into joint monarchy with England by the authority of the Pope - about as close as you got to international law in those days - and it became part of the UK by a vote of its own Parliament. As things go, that's a very civilised way of incorporating territory: in the vast majority of cases, countries were formed historically through bloodshed or simple dynastic marriages between Royals.

    Yes but why did the joint monarchy happen? Because Ireland had become rebellious and a threat to English security. Ireland had actually acknowledged and crowned pretenders, the rebellion of the Earl of Kildare had reinforced the point of just how powerful Irish lords were, and reform had not touched Ireland in the slightest, thereby making it a possible platform for Catholic powers to invade England from. These were the main reasons. I wouldn't bring a Pope into it, they were either weak or corrupt at this time. If Clement had given that divorce, possibly Protestantism would not have been an issue, or at least not rivalled Catholicism. (I have no idea what to call 'Britain' or at least England and Wales before it was called Britain.)

    As for the vote to become part of the Union- as discussed, what kind of parliament votes itself out of existence? A heavily bribed parliament that represented a fraction of Irish society. You can say English parliaments had the latter problem, but at least..they were all English, the exact same nationality. It WAS a union touched by bloodshed- it only happened because of 1798, and it spurred on Emmet. It was the exact same reactionary measure to renewed rebellion as 1541 was.

    Gaelic is not the term used for the Irish language. Call it Irish, or Gaeilge (Gwale-gah). Gaelic is more of a blanket term for the strand itself. I would argue, having lived in Ireland for 22 years, that cultural elements of Ireland are not confined to the west. Sure, they may be more in evidence, there are large gaeltachts (irish speaking areas) there, and the landscape fits the Oirland stereotype....BUT really it's more countrywide than that. Irish speaking schools, gaelscoils, are absolutely everywhere, they're extremely popular. There are gaeltacht areas in the east too, there are trad music/dance traditions everywhere. Irish dancing is very popular in Dublin. Irish would be much more popular, but it is taught abysmally in schools, really it kills it. As for sport- gaelic football and hurling are more popular than rugby and soccer. Croke Park, the GAA stadium, holds 83,500- this ranks it among the largest in Europe and it is not even a complete stadium. Good bit bigger than the old Lansdowne stadium used for rigby and soccer- I don't know what lansdowne's replacment holds. GAA sports are popular is every single county, evere parish has a GAA club. My town was 2, 2 parishes. They are the lifeblood of the country. TV- yep we have most UK channels- but the 4 main ones of our own are not to be dismissed. We may be extremely similar in everyday terms- same high streets, same programmes etc- but not culturally.

    As for plays- the most popular plays are by Synge and O'Casey- I can't see them being number one in Britain somehow. Or Boucicault, though they were in his day.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by silverbolt)
    unless im really rusty you just said your fluent twice

    and as for the OP I'll stick you an old favourite for the OP and the other douches in this thread - Bealtaine naimhde na hÉireann le chéile riamh le cara.

    Haha ah you're supposed to provide a translation, mine wasn't exact but it'll do. Now I've never heard that phrase before? I thought I would have come across them all...
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    ok maybe not by force historically speaking that wouldnt be good but i knw where u coming from well at leat i feel there are alot of countries in the world should unite again its taking a big step but could work in bringing countries and the world back together :P and as chessy and hippish this may sound but world piece! (Y)
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    I'm Irish and I completely agree!! Worst thing we ever did was leave the Union!
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    This thread = :facepalm:

    Has amused me for a good few minutes though, so do keep going.

    EDIT: To not look like I am spamming - OP the proposition is ridiculous.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    I love Irish nationalists that claim Ireland's history is one of being oppressed by Britain throughout the ages and not being able to express their culture or rule themselves. Then at the same time they demand the six northern provinces back based upon some strange idea of unity, when the Northern provinces don't want to be merged into Ireland and have shown this many times.

    How do you guys tally up the constant propaganda of the 'British oppression' with the tacit acceptance of an oppression of the North simply to get your wetdream of a united Ireland?
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by bcninja)
    ok maybe not by force historically speaking that wouldnt be good but i knw where u coming from well at leat i feel there are alot of countries in the world should unite again its taking a big step but could work in bringing countries and the world back together :P and as chessy and hippish this may sound but world piece! (Y)

    Absolutely yeah, peace would be the first result to such a union. Countries tend to like being independent.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by kkumk)
    I'm Irish and I completely agree!! Worst thing we ever did was leave the Union!

    ...Why? Economically?
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ajp100688)
    I love Irish nationalists that claim Ireland's history is one of being oppressed by Britain throughout the ages and not being able to express their culture or rule themselves. Then at the same time they demand the six northern provinces back based upon some strange idea of unity, when the Northern provinces don't want to be merged into Ireland and have shown this many times.

    How do you guys tally up the constant propaganda of the 'British oppression' with the tacit acceptance of an oppression of the North simply to get your wetdream of a united Ireland?

    Not all want a United Ireland. Most (republic of) Irish people are content with the situation, and largely indifferent to the North. People who are part of Nationalist groups, tend to want a United Ireland, but they are a small proportion. I for one think the idea of a United Ireland is ludicrous. It is absolutely impossible at this late stage. Sure, it would be nice but even in the wake of independence there would have been a lot of opposition. Maybe if the Ulster Plantation never happened! Although, I forget exactly which, but one of the major votes on a United Ireland in the North was boycotted by Republicans, so that was hardly representative?
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    seriously why the **** are we debating this. After all the death and destruction caused by near on 30 years of people whining over who has control over Ireland (well, the northern part at least). Those trying justify Ireland rejoining obviously have never visited many of the memorial sites to the famine, the war of independence, the civil war and the troubles.

    Can we just leave this be its ridiculous.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by kkumk)
    I'm Irish and I completely agree!! Worst thing we ever did was leave the Union!
    Have you got your sash?
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by StarsAreFixed)
    Not all want a United Ireland. Most (republic of) Irish people are content with the situation, and largely indifferent to the North. People who are part of Nationalist groups, tend to want a United Ireland, but they are a small proportion. I for one think the idea of a United Ireland is ludicrous. It is absolutely impossible at this late stage. Sure, it would be nice but even in the wake of independence there would have been a lot of opposition. Maybe if the Ulster Plantation never happened! Although, I forget exactly which, but one of the major votes on a United Ireland in the North was boycotted by Republicans, so that was hardly representative?
    And this is why I was telling you to reevaluate your opinion. The South isn't indifferent to the North, they want a United Ireland but are scared of us, for the most part. Nearly every Irish person I've spoken to from Dublin to Cork to Galway to Donegal has admitted this. They don't push for it at the moment or even appear like they want it because they don't want the violence, but they've all told me they'd love a United Ireland and are just waiting for us to sort ourselves out.

    As for the Ulster Plantation, it hasn't really affected Cavan, Donegal or Monaghan's integration into the South and you'd be hard pressed to find huge differences between them and Tyrone, Derry or Fermanagh. Let's also not forget that Armagh is the home of Irish Catholicism as well.


    (Original post by ajp100688)
    I love Irish nationalists that claim Ireland's history is one of being oppressed by Britain throughout the ages and not being able to express their culture or rule themselves. Then at the same time they demand the six northern provinces back based upon some strange idea of unity, when the Northern provinces don't want to be merged into Ireland and have shown this many times.

    How do you guys tally up the constant propaganda of the 'British oppression' with the tacit acceptance of an oppression of the North simply to get your wetdream of a united Ireland?
    3/6 of the Six Counties wish to be merged and have shown this many times. One depends on the time of year and only the other two have been staunchly Unionist/Loyalist from the time of the separation. It's not really best to break it down into county by county, because it shows that at least half of them want to leave, but the two Unionist ones have more people, meaning they win when the country is taken as a whole.

    Also given that a large number of the members of the Republican paramilities come from the South, I would argue there isn't that large of a tacit acceptance. Ireland knows it can't take the UK on in a war, nor does it want to, but the people still fight for a United Ireland whilst the rest wait for the North to sort itself out.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Hylean)
    And this is why I was telling you to reevaluate your opinion. The South isn't indifferent to the North, they want a United Ireland but are scared of us, for the most part. Nearly every Irish person I've spoken to from Dublin to Cork to Galway to Donegal has admitted this. They don't push for it at the moment or even appear like they want it because they don't want the violence, but they've all told me they'd love a United Ireland and are just waiting for us to sort ourselves out.

    I think there is a massive difference in people appreciating that a United Ireland would be great, but is impossible and accepting that....and people who really desperately want it to be a reality. Of course there are Nationalist groups here, of course there are several people who really do want a United Ireland, I'm not arguing that. I AM arguing their proportion. I have lived here all my life and never come across anyone who thinks beyond a United Ireland as being a dream. Not to be offensive, but since you are of a strong mindset, perhaps people from the South that you come across in whatever circles..are more inclined to be of the same mindset? The general attitude here is one of indifference. The North is talked about more for shopping opportunities really and more immediate concerns like violence. boards.ie often has threads on this topic, and given that it's a massive forum with people from all walks of life here I would say it's fairly representative. Other media also. It sounds trivial but the state of the economy in the last few years takes over from other considerations, and lessens the chance of unity.

    Yes the Ulster plantation did not affect all of Ulster equally, but it did have a lasting impact as the only plantation to actually succeed. I would argue that geography played a big part in the division...in order for the North to sustain itself, it needed a higher population than Protestant- dominated counties could give and it needed these couties to be of one bloc, and not broken up. Tyrone in particular.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by StarsAreFixed)
    Not all want a United Ireland. Most (republic of) Irish people are content with the situation, and largely indifferent to the North. People who are part of Nationalist groups, tend to want a United Ireland, but they are a small proportion. I for one think the idea of a United Ireland is ludicrous. It is absolutely impossible at this late stage. Sure, it would be nice but even in the wake of independence there would have been a lot of opposition. Maybe if the Ulster Plantation never happened! Although, I forget exactly which, but one of the major votes on a United Ireland in the North was boycotted by Republicans, so that was hardly representative?
    I would dispute that.
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: February 11, 2011
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    What newspaper do you read/prefer?
    Useful resources

    Groups associated with this forum:

    View associated groups
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.