Surely Oxbridge degrees should be LESS valued than others... ? Watch

hslt
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#141
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#141
(Original post by kbountra)
In general they clearly are more valued with perhaps exception of LSE/Imperial where the difference isn't that much (but still there).
Clearly? by who? and in what subjects?

Overall maybe, but every oxbridge degree isn't valued more than its equivalent at durham, warick, manchester, bristol, imperial, UCL, LSE etcetcetc
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Student-1
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#142
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(I'm not suggesting there arent different types of intelligence - lots of employers think that people at oxbridge might be 'too' academic I.e. not sociable etc)...massive generalizations again though sorry!
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username457532
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#143
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(Original post by Student-1)
This is going to sound really rude and conceited (I don't mean it to be!) but at my school it was typically (not always! But usually) the most intelligent people who applied to oxbridge, or at least those who worked hardest. And this is probably true for most schools. Of course oxbridge isn't for everyone and loads of people don't go either because its not for them or they unfortunately didn't get an offer even though they deserved one, but I think to say people at oxbridge should not be considered to be intelligent at all is slightly harsh!

Re: I'm so academic thing, haha fair enough
I wasn't saying you shouldn't consider people at Oxbridge at be intelligent. I just think you should say that everyone at Oxbridge is more intelligent than anyone anywhere else. Some with be more intelligent, some will be less.

Often the most intelligent people apply for Oxbridge because they believe they should. Schools are desperate for anyone who has As at GCSE and AS to apply because they want to boast about it. Or maybe that was just my school. People who applied to Oxbridge got a million times more help than anyone else. I finished my UCAS two weeks before anyone else at school and yet people who applied to Oxbridge after the school's internal Oxbridge/Medicine deadline has their forms processed before mine...
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Mm_Minty
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#144
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This thread just basically proves that it doesn't matter if I drop my degree course or not; I'll still be a massive failure
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Student-1
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#145
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(Original post by SmallTownGirl)
I wasn't saying you shouldn't consider people at Oxbridge at be intelligent. I just think you should say that everyone at Oxbridge is more intelligent than anyone anywhere else. Some with be more intelligent, some will be less.

Often the most intelligent people apply for Oxbridge because they believe they should. Schools are desperate for anyone who has As at GCSE and AS to apply because they want to boast about it. Or maybe that was just my school. People who applied to Oxbridge got a million times more help than anyone else. I finished my UCAS two weeks before anyone else at school and yet people who applied to Oxbridge after the school's internal Oxbridge/Medicine deadline has their forms processed before mine...
I said 'not always'...

That's really annoying about your application though, sorry :s my school was a bit like that - I know medicine and oxbridge needed more help because they had interviews so it was fair in a way, but I agree that it made it look like the other degrees were less important which was 100% not true...
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username457532
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#146
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(Original post by Student-1)
I said 'not always'...

That's really annoying about your application though, sorry :s my school was a bit like that - I know medicine and oxbridge needed more help because they had interviews so it was fair in a way, but I agree that it made it look like the other degrees were less important which was 100% not true...
Oh no. My school doesn't care about medicine. Or any other subject: nursing, education etc. that interviews. Only Oxbridge. And at my school the only degrees that are important are at Oxbridge. The whole school had to know about the two people that got offers this year - most of the teachers don't care where anyone else is going, even if they teach them...

Admittedly I do have a bit a grudge since I was told by several people that if I didn't go to Oxbridge I'd never get a job. Ever. Oh, and then my friend (one of the two people who got offers) who knows I applied for the unis that offered the right course for me told me he was better than me because he's going to Cambridge...
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Student-1
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#147
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(Original post by SmallTownGirl)
Oh no. My school doesn't care about medicine. Or any other subject: nursing, education etc. that interviews. Only Oxbridge. And at my school the only degrees that are important are at Oxbridge. The whole school had to know about the two people that got offers this year - most of the teachers don't care where anyone else is going, even if they teach them...

Admittedly I do have a bit a grudge since I was told by several people that if I didn't go to Oxbridge I'd never get a job. Ever. Oh, and then my friend (one of the two people who got offers) who knows I applied for the unis that offered the right course for me told me he was better than me because he's going to Cambridge...
I hate it when people say stuff like that - oxbridge is not for everyone and often people at other unis are more employable for loads of reasons. You have every right to hold a grudge as when people say that it just shows they're ignorant of what goes on in the real world, but honestly, not everyone at oxbridge is like that! You're university is only a small part of your application for any job, and definitely not the deciding factor! So yeah, completely agree with you on that one!
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username457532
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#148
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(Original post by Student-1)
I hate it when people say stuff like that - oxbridge is not for everyone and often people at other unis are more employable for loads of reasons. You have every right to hold a grudge as when people say that it just shows they're ignorant of what goes on in the real world, but honestly, not everyone at oxbridge is like that! You're university is only a small part of your application for any job, and definitely not the deciding factor! So yeah, completely agree with you on that one!
Yay. I like it when people finally understand my view.
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Student-1
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#149
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I'm only disagreeing with the 'degrees should be worth LESS at oxbridge' because I definitely don't think that's true
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wer343lit
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#150
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(Original post by Nichrome)
It's a hard thing to quantify. You'll have people come on here screaming that the grades across universities are all worth the same citing one quote on UUK/QAA or the fact that Oxford/Cambridge give higher amounts of good honours (across all subjects you have to bear in mind) than anywhere else.

From my experience, the teaching (certainly the lecturing in NatSci) at Cambridge is no better, maybe worse than elsewhere. This is largely due to the much more restricted time frame of shorter terms, but also they try to blast through so much more content that it's very hard to keep track of what you're doing. I'd say three hours of lecturing at UCL (where I'm at now) has the same amount of content as one hour at Cambridge. Also I've found lecture notes are written in a far more wordy and convoluted manner, meaning it can be much more difficult to obtain stuff you want to know from reading notes.

So I've found that there is more content per course, and less time to teach the course, on top of the fact there is less time examined per course (90 mins at Cam opposed to 150min at UCL) ontop of the fact that the exam questions at Cam seem much less standardised and more difficult. This is what has lead to believe on average, degrees (science/maths degrees at least) are more challenging at oxbridge than elsewhere.

The high amount of good honours awarded is usually due to near 100% 2.1+ rates of arts subjects like history and english where you only have about 1 or 2 people getting a 2.2. Trawling unistats, the percentages of good honours awarded of science subjects is usually the same, or in many cases lower than in many other unis (55% of people greenwich maths get a 1st compared with about 30% of cambridge mathmos). Also reading external examiner reports, the QAA and UUK do very little to standardise degrees, only offer 'suggestions' on how class grade boundaries can be shifted. And also just because they cover the same 'core' of a subject does not mean the difficulty is the same. Maths A level and STEP cover the same content, but the difficulty is not the same.

It's clear that oxbridge employ rigorous interviews and entrance tests to select the best students they can that apply. If these groups of students are getting the same/lower grades than elsewhere it seems obvious that the standard of degrees across institutions is not uniform.
This is a very good post.
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paella
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#151
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#151
University degrees are not like ALevels, they teach different things and are marked on different critereas.
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7589200
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#152
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#152
(Original post by Chewwy)
can't believe i read through all the idiocy in this thread. i despair for humanity.

its ****ing unbelievable that so many actually agree with this.
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puddlejumper
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#153
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#153
(Original post by Ilustrius)
In future, construct your argument with greater clarity. Hopefully you've learned from this thread.
I've certainly learned that anyone connected to Oxbridge tends to be a bit trigger happy when it comes to neg rep. That kind of makes one wonder why they feel the need to be so defensive?

Perhaps they are guilding the lily to make themselves feel more superior? Or is it just the schoolchildren trying to feel superior because they know a cat that once ate a mouse at Oxbridge and that makes them think that gives them a better knowledge of everything connected to Oxbridge?

Or do they think that being obsequious will make the admissions tutors give them a place?
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wer343lit
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#154
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(Original post by puddlejumper)
I've certainly learned that anyone connected to Oxbridge tends to be a bit trigger happy when it comes to neg rep. That kind of makes one wonder why they feel the need to be so defensive?
Which would explain why the original post in this thread (which is hilariously misguided) has significantly more positive reps than negative ones?
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WelshBluebird
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#155
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You have to be slightly mad to suggest a degree at Oxford isn't harder than other places. Yes, they get more support, but the workload is much much higher.
However, there are external bodies that try to make sure that the difficulty of the degrees is somewhat similar between universities. Obviously it doesn't work really, but it does mean that you know a degree is a degree. And professional bodies (like the BCS and the BPS) run accreditation schemes for courses that can also help verify the work needed in a degree.

(Original post by paddyman4)
Universities award degrees on a bell curve. Most people get a 2.1, some people get a 1st and some people get a 2.2. If you are at Oxford, then to get a 1st you have to be better than most of the other people at Oxford. Whilst at Kingston, you just need to be better than most people at Kingston. Which is harder, I wonder?.
Wrong.
Most unis award degrees based on the % you get.
40% is a third,
50% is a 2.2
60% is a 2.1
70% or more is a first.

There probably are differences with some unis, but most work on the principle.

(Original post by Hedger)
Well, - and i say this with absolutely no convinction - aren't most grades at universities extrapolated after examinations, creating some sort of average so there are grades accross the whole classification spectrum? Thus, when considering the grades (and/or connections) you need to get into these universities, you could conclude that the talent there is extremely high. Therefore to beat someone in a top university is surely a greater achievement then beating someone in a lower university?
Nope.
Not in my experience anyway.

The lecturers may base the difficulty of the exam or coursework on the assumption that only a certain number of people will get a first, but at least at Bath (and other unis I have been to and seen) its just done on how well you do in the assessments (and not how well you do in comparison to others)
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Ice Man 3000
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#156
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Google is your friend...

The Russell Group comments on the HEPI report on “The Comparability of Degree Standards”

03 June 2010

Responding to the Higher Education Policy Institute (HEPI) report, “Comparability of degree standards?”, Director General of the Russell Group of research-intensive universities, Dr Wendy Piatt, said:

“We have an outstanding higher education system in the UK – one which attracts the most talented students and staff in the world. Russell Group universities offer high-quality research-led learning underpinned by excellence in academic standards and robust quality assurance.

“We welcome the fact that the HEPI report recognises that the UK has one of the most robust and extensive systems of quality assurance both within and between institutions in the world. Russell Group universities are constantly seeking to ensure that these processes are applied consistently and strengthened where required to provide students and employers with the necessary assurances about the quality of teaching and degree standards.

“The report also gives welcome recognition to the healthy diversity which exists in the UK higher education system, and the differences in the standard of outcomes of different universities. We agree that it would be misguided to seek to achieve comparability outcomes in an environment of mass participation in higher education and such significant differences across the higher education sector.

We firmly believe that prospective students should have access to clear information about the kind of educational experience they are likely to receive from different courses and institutions, the opportunities provided by universities, and where they are likely to secure the greatest returns on the investment they make in their education. We are working on improving the information that is currently on offer to students. Such information is essential to help students make informed choices about the kind of degree which meets their needs and expectations.”
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evantej
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#157
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People who base their opinion of universities on prestige run into a brick wall when faced with three dilemmas: not all institutions award degrees on a bell curve; the concept of external moderation; and the concept of value-added score.
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puddlejumper
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#158
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(Original post by Jonty99)
Which would explain why the original post in this thread (which is hilariously misguided) has significantly more positive reps than negative ones?
I assume that you don't understand the premise of the first post, ie that a degree from Oxbridge is the same standard as a degree from anywhere else.

If you pos rep that post then you are saying that you agree with that premise, and you are therefore very unlikely to be an Oxbridge student because if you were then you would believe that it is more difficult to get a good degree at Oxbridge.

The only conclusion from that is that there are far more non-Oxbridge students than there are Oxbridge students on this forum. Doh!
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Retrodiction
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#159
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#159
(Original post by manchild007)
Oh what a surprise, the only objective evidence there is (which incidentally supports the view that HYP>Oxbridge), is now simply no longer reliable - I enjoy your reply critiquing EVERY SINGLE table and indeed informing me as to why they are all indeed "unreliable".

"Speaking of fallacies, how ironic", as indeed using league tables as a defense was fine when one (from the many, and for the first time ever) supported your view :rolleyes:
Yes, league tables are objective measures of quality. That's why there are over a dozen that I can think of, all of which award different rankings to the same universities.
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wer343lit
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#160
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(Original post by puddlejumper)
I assume that you don't understand the premise of the first post, ie that a degree from Oxbridge is the same standard as a degree from anywhere else.

If you pos rep that post then you are saying that you agree with that premise, and you are therefore very unlikely to be an Oxbridge student because if you were then you would believe that it is more difficult to get a good degree at Oxbridge.

The only conclusion from that is that there are far more non-Oxbridge students than there are Oxbridge students on this forum. Doh!
I actually agree completely with your post there.

lol
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