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"Benefit cuts: Monday will be the day that defines this government..." Watch

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    The Tories are relying on a bombardment of outright lies to justify these attacks on the poor.

    Their main lies are:

    * "People should not be able to earn more in benefits than in work".

    This has not been the case for years. Working tax credits make it almost impossible - the Mail has had a desperate search for examples recently and found only a few really extreme cases.

    * "People should not be able to make living off benefits a lifestyle choice".

    Very, very few people are in a position to do this. JSA is now extremely rigorous with tighter and tighter hurdles to jump through to retain benefits for more than 9 months. Most benefits go to pensioners and the working poor. Less than 20% of total welfare payments are going to the unemployed.

    * "The government needs to get the deficit under control by cutting benefits".

    A much bigger source of savings would be to stop corporations avoiding paying tax. Britain's top 50 companies are paying only 20% of the tax that they used to 25 years ago as a percentage of government revenues, but they make nearly 5 times the profits they did 25 years ago. The government are in fact making it even easier for corporations to avoid tax. The biggest financial companies caused the deficit crisis, but the Coalition are blaming this on welfare recipients.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The Tories are relying on a bombardment of outright lies to justify these attacks on the poor.

    Their main lies are:

    * "People should not be able to earn more in benefits than in work".

    This has not been the case for years. Working tax credits make it almost impossible - the Mail has had a desperate search for examples recently and found only a few really extreme cases.

    * "People should not be able to make living off benefits a lifestyle choice".

    Very, very few people are in a position to do this. JSA is now extremely rigorous with tighter and tighter hurdles to jump through to retain benefits for more than 9 months. Most benefits go to pensioners and the working poor. Less than 20% of total welfare payments are going to the unemployed.

    * "The government needs to get the deficit under control by cutting benefits".

    A much bigger source of savings would be to stop corporations avoiding paying tax. Britain's top 50 companies are paying only 20% of the tax that they used to 25 years ago as a percentage of government revenues, but they make nearly 5 times the profits they did 25 years ago. The government are in fact making it even easier for corporations to avoid tax. The biggest financial companies caused the deficit crisis, but the Coalition are blaming this on welfare recipients.
    we need low corporation tax, this encourages corporations and businesses to set up in the uk, and more importantly to stay here. This in turn generates jobs. Raising corporation tax means more corporations will leave, so wont be paying any tax. As a consequence less jobs and more people on benefits.

    In bold, this is exactly the case. You may live in a nice area, and you may go to a nice university, you may socialize with all your white left wing friends, i presume you support positive discrimination, feminism and all other liberal-ideas. The truth is, labour has made it easy to abuse the welfare system, so there is no incentive for people to work. Lets put it this way, my dad works in a council estate and often shows tenants round council houses. It's the ones with the most children he seems to be showing around, the ones who can't speak English and they are getting free council houses. These are people with little to no education. Perhaps instead of giving them huge benefits and child benefits and forgetting about them, how about we cut the benefits to the bare minimum so it is an uncomfortable for them to live. This will give them the motivation to find work, to get themselves back into education and become a valuable member of society.
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    (Original post by iamgreatness)
    we need low corporation tax, this encourages corporations and businesses to set up in the uk, and more importantly to stay here. This in turn generates jobs. Raising corporation tax means more corporations will leave, so wont be paying any tax. As a consequence less jobs and more people on benefits.

    In bold, this is exactly the case. You may live in a nice area, and you may go to a nice university, you may socialize with all your white left wing friends, i presume you support positive discrimination, feminism and all other liberal-ideas. The truth is, labour has made it easy to abuse the welfare system, so there is no incentive for people to work. Lets put it this way, my dad works in a council estate and often shows tenants round council houses. It's the ones with the most children he seems to be showing around, the ones who can't speak English and they are getting free council houses. These are people with little to no education. Perhaps instead of giving them huge benefits and child benefits and forgetting about them, how about we cut the benefits to the bare minimum so it is an uncomfortable for them to live. This will give them the motivation to find work, to get themselves back into education and become a valuable member of society.
    Please say which local authority it is that is allegedly assigning immigrants to council houses with priority over English families, which is the plain implication of your comment. There is zero truth to it, which is why I ask.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Please say which local authority it is that is allegedly assigning immigrants to council houses with priority over English families, which is the plain implication of your comment. There is zero truth to it, which is why I ask.
    All of them.

    Yes, my dad just lies to me about his job because he wants me to have a particular political view. If you don't believe me, that's fine. All i'm saying is the majority aren't English. Mostly Somali's and afghans.
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    (Original post by iamgreatness)
    All of them.

    Yes, my dad just lies to me about his job because he wants me to have a particular political view. If you don't believe me, that's fine. All i'm saying is the majority aren't English. Mostly Somali's and afghans.
    That's utter crap. There have been absolutely loads of researches into this, including a major study last year. There is no evidence whatever that local authorities have favoured recent immigrant arrivals or even longer-term immigrants over white English families in council house placement, also there is loads of evidence that it is much more difficult for immigrant arrivals to get decent accommodation.

    Is this London or Bristol? Somalis as a group are amongst the worst housed of all immigrants in the UK.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    That's utter crap. There have been absolutely loads of researches into this, including a major study last year. There is no evidence whatever that local authorities have favoured recent immigrant arrivals or even longer-term immigrants over white English families in council house placement, also there is loads of evidence that it is much more difficult for immigrant arrivals to get decent accommodation.

    Is this London or Bristol? Somalis as a group are amongst the worst housed of all immigrants in the UK.
    This is primary research. Yes, im sure there is no policies which say immigrants get to the houses faster, but when you bear in mind welfare is meant to protect the most vulnerable, having more children pushes you up the list, not speaking English pushes you up the list. These attributes are common with immigrants, thus they get pushed to the top of the housing list. i'd like to see this "evidence" and "studies". im not saying where.
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    (Original post by iamgreatness)
    All of them.

    Yes, my dad just lies to me about his job because he wants me to have a particular political view. If you don't believe me, that's fine. All i'm saying is the majority aren't English. Mostly Somali's and afghans.
    Rubbish. Stop talking out of your backside.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/ju...social-housing

    Do some googling - there is quite a bit of info on this subject.
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    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    Rubbish. Stop talking out of your backside.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/ju...social-housing

    Do some googling - there is quite a bit of info on this subject.
    Do you live in a council estate? Does one of your close family members work in this sector? No? oh, so you link me to a guardian article on welfare. This wont be bias at all will it.
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    (Original post by iamgreatness)
    Do you live in a council estate? Does one of your close family members work in this sector? No? oh, so you link me to a guardian article on welfare. This wont be bias at all will it.
    Yes to the first question. I think my Auntie used to work for the council, but I don't really see much of her.

    I recommended that you conduct your own research, rather than rely on the clearly inaccurate musings of your father. If you took the time to read the piece, you will see that that it refers to research conducted by Sheffield City Council which supports the findings of the other study.
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    So we can be sure of one thing - homelessness is going to start to surge again, particularly in London. Many people simply won't be able to afford to live in what accommodation is on offer there and will be driven out of their own homes by the benefit cuts, but unable to relocate.

    In the 70s and 80s, tens of thousands of people slept rough in London, causing a crime wave and many other problems. This will start to develop again quite soon and by winter 2014 will be a huge problem. At the same time, Shelter and other bodies caring for the homeless have had budget cuts and reductions in donations.

    It is very likely that many people who are currently living in reasonably housing will die during the next few winters as a result of the sinister and vindictive bedroom tax and housing benefit cut in London.
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    (Original post by iamgreatness)
    All of them.

    Yes, my dad just lies to me about his job because he wants me to have a particular political view. If you don't believe me, that's fine. All i'm saying is the majority aren't English. Mostly Somali's and afghans.
    - Asylum seekers have no choice where they are allocated housing. It is a condition of them seeking asylum that they are given housing so the state can monitor them effectively. The state also pays for utilities etc. associated with that housing so they can reduce the amount of money they give them to spend (it is even lower than means-tested Jobseeker's Allowance for under 25s).

    - Most social housing is looked after by arms-length organisations for local authorities. This means there is a mix of housing stock allocated on a choice-based system (i.e. the housing could be owned by a charity, the local authority, or housing associations). In fact, there are lots of organisations which now look after private rental properties too. Each of these owners stipulate their own requirements and there is absolutely nothing the government can do to get around this. If a housing association wants to give their house to someone with a local connection then it will go to someone with a local connection unless there is no one interested in it. It is that simple.

    - These arms-length organisations operate a transparent choice-based allocation system based on housing need. Not being able to speak English does not push you up the list. That is complete nonsense. For instance, take the arms-length organisation that looks after social housing in Barnsley, you can access their lettings policy here. In addition, they have gone out of their way to combat prejudice by publishing statistics of their allocations: for example, between April and December 2012 they relet 5.6%*of available homes to non white British people.

    If your dad is honestly a housing officer for a local authority then he is designated a specific ward to look after. This means he has limited knowledge about a small area and who is allocated those properties. You have taken his 'primary research' and suggested it applies to every area of the UK. That is complete nonsense.
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    It is Christmas Day in the workhouse,
    And the cold, bare walls are bright
    With garlands of green and holly,
    Ad the place is a pleasant sight;
    For with clean-washed hands and faces,
    In a long and hungry line
    The paupers sit at the table,
    For this is the hour they dine.


    And the guardians and their ladies,
    Although the wind is east,
    Have come in their furs and wrappers,
    To watch their charges feast;
    To smile and be condescending,
    Put pudding on pauper plates.
    To be hosts at the workhouse banquet
    They've paid for -- with the rates.


    Oh, the paupers are meek and lowly
    With their "Thank'ee kindly, mum's!'"
    So long as they fill their stomachs,
    What matter it whence it comes!
    But one of the old men mutters,
    And pushes his plate aside:
    "Great God!" he cries, "but it chokes me!
    For this is the day she died!"


    The guardians gazed in horror,
    The master's face went white;
    "Did a pauper refuse the pudding?"
    "Could their ears believe aright?"
    Then the ladies clutched their husbands,
    Thinking the man would die,
    Struck by a bolt, or something,
    By the outraged One on high.


    But the pauper sat for a moment,
    Then rose 'mid silence grim,
    For the others had ceased to chatter
    And trembled in every limb.
    He looked at the guardians' ladies,
    Then, eyeing their lords, he said,
    "I eat not the food of villains
    Whose hands are foul and red:


    "Whose victims cry for vengeance
    From their dark, unhallowed graves."
    "He's drunk!" said the workhouse master,
    "Or else he's mad and raves."
    "Not drunk or mad," cried the pauper,
    "But only a haunted beast,
    Who, torn by the hounds and mangled,
    Declines the vulture's feast.


    "I care not a curse for the guardians,
    And I won't be dragged away;
    Just let me have the fit out,
    It's only on Christmas Day
    That the black past comes to goad me,
    And prey on my burning brain;
    I'll tell you the rest in a whisper --
    I swear I won't shout again.


    "Keep your hands off me, curse you!
    Hear me right out to the end.
    You come here to see how paupers
    The season of Christmas spend;.
    You come here to watch us feeding,
    As they watched the captured beast.
    Here's why a penniless pauper
    Spits on your paltry feast.


    "Do you think I will take your bounty,
    And let you smile and think
    You're doing a noble action
    With the parish's meat and drink?
    Where is my wife, you traitors --
    The poor old wife you slew?
    Yes, by the God above me,
    My Nance was killed by you!


    'Last winter my wife lay dying,
    Starved in a filthy den;
    I had never been to the parish --
    I came to the parish then.
    I swallowed my pride in coming,
    For ere the ruin came,
    I held up my head as a trader,
    And I bore a spotless name.


    "I came to the parish, craving
    Bread for a starving wife,
    Bread for the woman who'd loved me
    Through fifty years of life;
    And what do you think they told me,
    Mocking my awful grief,
    That 'the House' was open to us,
    But they wouldn't give 'out relief'.


    "I slunk to the filthy alley --
    'Twas a cold, raw Christmas Eve --
    And the bakers' shops were open,
    Tempting a man to thieve;
    But I clenched my fists together,
    Holding my head awry,
    So I came to her empty-handed
    And mournfully told her why.


    "Then I told her the house was open;
    She had heard of the ways of that,
    For her bloodless cheeks went crimson,
    and up in her rags she sat,
    Crying, 'Bide the Christmas here, John,
    We've never had one apart;
    I think I can bear the hunger --
    The other would break my heart.'


    "All through that eve I watched her,
    Holding her hand in mine,
    Praying the Lord and weeping,
    Till my lips were salt as brine;
    I asked her once if she hungered,
    And as she answered 'No' ,
    The moon shone in at the window,
    Set in a wreath of snow.


    "Then the room was bathed in glory,
    And I saw in my darling's eyes
    The faraway look of wonder
    That comes when the spirit flies;
    And her lips were parched and parted,
    And her reason came and went.
    For she raved of our home in Devon,
    Where our happiest years were spent.


    "And the accents, long forgotten,
    Came back to the tongue once more.
    For she talked like the country lassie
    I woo'd by the Devon shore;
    Then she rose to her feet and trembled,
    And fell on the rags and moaned,
    And, 'Give me a crust -- I'm famished --
    For the love of God!' she groaned.


    "I rushed from the room like a madman
    And flew to the workhouse gate,
    Crying, 'Food for a dying woman!'
    And the answer came, 'Too late.'
    They drove me away with curses;
    Then I fought with a dog in the street
    And tore from the mongrel's clutches
    A crust he was trying to eat.


    "Back through the filthy byways!
    Back through the trampled slush!
    Up to the crazy garret,
    Wrapped in an awful hush;
    My heart sank down at the threshold,
    And I paused with a sudden thrill.
    For there, in the silv'ry moonlight,
    My Nance lay, cold and still.


    "Up to the blackened ceiling,
    The sunken eyes were cast --
    I knew on those lips, all bloodless,
    My name had been the last;
    She called for her absent husband --
    O God! had I but known! --
    Had called in vain, and, in anguish,
    Had died in that den -- alone.


    "Yes, there, in a land of plenty,
    Lay a loving woman dead,
    Cruelly starved and murdered
    for a loaf of the parish bread;
    At yonder gate, last Christmas,
    I craved for a human life,
    You, who would feed us paupers,
    What of my murdered wife!


    "There, get ye gone to your dinners,
    Don't mind me in the least,
    Think of the happy paupers
    Eating your Christmas feast;
    And when you recount their blessings
    In your smug parochial way,
    Say what you did for me, too,
    Only last Christmas Day."

    Alarmist at this point maybe to post such a thing, but mark my words:
    - there are people dying because of the policies of this government
    - there is the same shunting from pillar to post to obtain money to survive
    - there is the same thing where public money is being diverted into private hands to run charities, workfare schemes and food banks
    - there is the same sense of shame about claiming benefits
    - there is the same thing that people who were formerly part of the economy are now betrayed by society
    - there is likely to be the same return to animalism that is symbolised by his fight with the dog.

    Thank God there is no warlike superpower like there was in the 1930s, which this decade is otherwise 100% like. At that time, the destitute were by 1934 sent to work camps in Southern England and these were slowly militarised.

    Workfare, for example, is merely "workhouses in the community".

    An excellent article was published earlier in the Guardian absolutely debunking the "soaring benefit bill" myth. The only group that's been soaring in the past 30 years has been pensioners, who are such a key vote they are protected from all cuts (even the richest getting TV licence, winter fuel, bus pass etc). I urge you all to read it.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...?commentpage=2
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    (Original post by Elissabeth)
    Really?

    What do you eat in this diet? Is it healthy or making you ill? Just curious, I'd like to reduce my shopping bills.

    It is probably still healthier then the kebab and chips/chessy chips/pizza/ chinese/ sausage n chips/ burgers that people on benefits often have 5 nights a week.
    I have meat with every meal. Asda and morrisons bothvdo 3for £10 on meat. With this you can get a pack of 25meat balls (5meals) mince which does three meals and some diced stake which can do 4meals. Pasta rice n noodles are cheap as are the sauces there are usually somr offers on fruit n veg as well. Two packets of the frozeb chicken from asda can do me 5meals and comes to about £6 altogether.
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    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...nes-government

    Worth a read. I know some, particularly on this forum (which seems to be UKIP HQ for some reason), will believe it to be liberal, wishy washy, hand ringing nonsense. However it is without a doubt that, as the piece points out, the changes will bring challenges. They will hurt many more people than the "scroungers" we have been told about and all with access to legal advice severely restricted.

    I believe that the government has acted in a disgusting manner when it has come to welfare. I am also saddened that there has been little resistance from any other party - no one has been quick to point out the flaws or lies in the government's case.

    I think the last paragraph in the piece is a good summary: "People should know that historians will record the earthquake of social destruction that happened in their name, while they read of nothing but "scroungers" and the 'soaring benefit bill'."

    Cameron and his boys will be judged for this. With any luck, it will leave his party unelectable for a very long time.

    Oh please!

    Time will tell

    I think people should become less dependant on government
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    (Original post by a729)
    I think people should become less dependant on government
    So you're in favour of an increase in the minimum wage to reduce the amount of people in work on tax credits and housing benefit?
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    (Original post by PQ)
    So you're in favour of an increase in the minimum wage to reduce the amount of people in work on tax credits and housing benefit?
    Yes!

    Along with slashing VAT and fuel duty and slightly reducing employers NI contributions to offset any inflationary effects of higher wages
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    (Original post by a729)
    Yes!

    Along with slashing VAT and fuel duty and slightly reducing employers NI contributions to offset any inflationary effects of higher wages
    Not sure I follow that tbh. Cutting VAT yep. Cutting fuel duty doesn't usually lower the price of fuel in my experience though - distributers/etc just take the extra profit.
    Cutting employers NI is surely just replacing one subsidy for low wages for another? I'd be tempted to whack it up for companies over a certain # of employees to try to level the playing field between big businesses and small entrepreneurs - try to recover some of the tax that they wangle their way out of that Bob's corner shop or Jane's coffee shop etc don't have the accounting staff to replicate.
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    (Original post by PQ)
    Not sure I follow that tbh. Cutting VAT yep. Cutting fuel duty doesn't usually lower the price of fuel in my experience though - distributers/etc just take the extra profit.
    Cutting employers NI is surely just replacing one subsidy for low wages for another? I'd be tempted to whack it up for companies over a certain # of employees to try to level the playing field between big businesses and small entrepreneurs - try to recover some of the tax that they wangle their way out of that Bob's corner shop or Jane's coffee shop etc don't have the accounting staff to replicate.
    Lowering the price of fuel significantly will lower the price of most goods- as they all have the price of the fuel used to transport them in their price

    Reducing NI for employers would help stop an increase in unemployment/reduction in jobs

    You do realise the main obstacle to raising the NMW is that it would lead to less people being hired/ people being hired for less hours both of which would increase the welfare bill
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The Tories are relying on a bombardment of outright lies to justify these attacks on the poor.

    Their main lies are:

    * "People should not be able to earn more in benefits than in work".

    This has not been the case for years. Working tax credits make it almost impossible - the Mail has had a desperate search for examples recently and found only a few really extreme cases.

    * "People should not be able to make living off benefits a lifestyle choice".

    Very, very few people are in a position to do this. JSA is now extremely rigorous with tighter and tighter hurdles to jump through to retain benefits for more than 9 months. Most benefits go to pensioners and the working poor. Less than 20% of total welfare payments are going to the unemployed.

    * "The government needs to get the deficit under control by cutting benefits".

    A much bigger source of savings would be to stop corporations avoiding paying tax. Britain's top 50 companies are paying only 20% of the tax that they used to 25 years ago as a percentage of government revenues, but they make nearly 5 times the profits they did 25 years ago. The government are in fact making it even easier for corporations to avoid tax. The biggest financial companies caused the deficit crisis, but the Coalition are blaming this on welfare recipients.
    You are aware these cuts have been made across the board? It's not just the welfare budget that's being reduced. If you want to get angry, can you get angry at the people who have ring fenced Health spending and the International aid budget.
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    (Original post by PQ)
    Not sure I follow that tbh. Cutting VAT yep. Cutting fuel duty doesn't usually lower the price of fuel in my experience though - distributers/etc just take the extra profit.
    Cutting employers NI is surely just replacing one subsidy for low wages for another? I'd be tempted to whack it up for companies over a certain # of employees to try to level the playing field between big businesses and small entrepreneurs - try to recover some of the tax that they wangle their way out of that Bob's corner shop or Jane's coffee shop etc don't have the accounting staff to replicate.
    The simple way is to get our Labour Productivity figures up. And lets not forget that whilst Europe is in the poo, then so will our econonomy
 
 
 
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