Would you date a transgender person? Poll Watch

Poll: Would you date a transgender person?
Yes (63)
27.04%
No (170)
72.96%
superwolf
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#141
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#141
(Original post by cole-slaw)
You know the doctor said you need to take the pills at 6 hour intervals otherwise you start writing incoherent rantings on student forums.
I grade my language according to its audience.
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phaedron
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#142
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#142
I really dont know to be honest. I would probably feel really uncomfortable initially but most attraction for me is intellectual so I could probably get past it after a while.
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Mankytoes
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#143
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#143
(Original post by Seventeen)
From now on I demand you call me Master when addressing me.
Your analogy is completely flawed, a name is a title that can be easily changed and has no meaning behind it, calling someone a he or she if they are a she/he is a completely incorrect statement, they should be defined based on their factual definition which is their Genetics (XX/XY). If they get offended by that then I am by no means selfish.
But they aren't talking about their genetic sex, they are talking about their gender.
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Rakas21
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#144
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#144
'No, certainly not'.

While i accept the fact that these people have different feelings and issues and have sought 'correction' as they believe it, i certainly would not allow myself to become infatuated with one of them simply because i find it a little repulsive and i don't think i have sufficient empathy for their situation.

Then there's the fact that they are incapable of producing my progeny, in recent years that's become sufficiently important to me that i'm not even sure i could be with anybody who was infertile.

I also think that while somebody born with both should be treated, the NHS should not be funding this surgery. These people need a psychologist.
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Mankytoes
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#145
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#145
(Original post by Rakas21)

I also think that while somebody born with both should be treated, the NHS should not be funding this surgery. These people need a psychologist.
They speak to a psychologist, you don't just go to your GP and say "I'm a woman, invert my penis please". There's extensive contact, until the doctors are satisfied it is essential for the person's mental health that they have reassignment. The NHS is for mental as well as physical health problems. If someone's body dismorphia is not considered permanent, they won't go ahead.
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phaedron
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#146
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#146
(Original post by Rakas21)
'No, certainly not'.

While i accept the fact that these people have different feelings and issues and have sought 'correction' as they believe it, i certainly would not allow myself to become infatuated with one of them simply because i find it a little repulsive and i don't think i have sufficient empathy for their situation.

Then there's the fact that they are incapable of producing my progeny, in recent years that's become sufficiently important to me that i'm not even sure i could be with anybody who was infertile.

I also think that while somebody born with both should be treated, the NHS should not be funding this surgery. These people need a psychologist.

The proof that it works is self evident. Giving surgery to anorexics on the NHS for example would be a nightmare - it would simply feed into their obsession. The same goes for dysmorphics. The trans people ive known have all been incredibly happy with the change however. In our society's small minded view you're either male or female and if you're dissatisfied you need a psychologist to reach inside your skull and rattle your bits around until your psyche proudly proclaims "Its a penis Its a penis by my curly bush its a male penis such joy!"
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Rakas21
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#147
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#147
(Original post by Mankytoes)
They speak to a psychologist, you don't just go to your GP and say "I'm a woman, invert my penis please". There's extensive contact, until the doctors are satisfied it is essential for the person's mental health that they have reassignment. The NHS is for mental as well as physical health problems. If someone's body dismorphia is not considered permanent, they won't go ahead.
I'm all for treating mental health issues but in this case i'm simply not sure that it's adequate justification to waste taxpayers money. Unless these feelings push them towards suicide for example (i.e. it's making them a danger to themselves) then i'd take the view that the NHS can provide mental health services but that they should go private if they want an operation.
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phaedron
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#148
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#148
(Original post by Rakas21)
I'm all for treating mental health issues but in this case i'm simply not sure that it's adequate justification to waste taxpayers money. Unless these feelings push them towards suicide for example (i.e. it's making them a danger to themselves) then i'd take the view that the NHS can provide mental health services but that they should go private if they want an operation.

I may be wrong but I dont think therapy works at all for trans people
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cole-slaw
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#149
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#149
(Original post by phaedron)
The proof that it works is self evident.
Is it? Rates of depression and suicide remain indistinguishable before and after surgery, at a rate of roughly 20 times the normal population.

So the evidence actually suggests it doesn't actually work, at all.
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phaedron
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#150
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#150
(Original post by cole-slaw)
Is it? Rates of depression and suicide remain indistinguishable before and after surgery, at a rate of roughly 20 times the normal population.

So the evidence actually suggests it doesn't actually work, at all.
I overstated the case admittedly. Treatment plans apparently vary quite widely and some individuals can be counselled while others are inconsolable if you will and require full transitions.
I think societal attitudes probably have more to do with post op suicide than anything else. I would like to see some stats on subjective feelings of gender satisfaction post op

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-...Treatment.aspx
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Mankytoes
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#151
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#151
(Original post by Rakas21)
I'm all for treating mental health issues but in this case i'm simply not sure that it's adequate justification to waste taxpayers money. Unless these feelings push them towards suicide for example (i.e. it's making them a danger to themselves) then i'd take the view that the NHS can provide mental health services but that they should go private if they want an operation.
Well it's generally accepted by those qualified that they surgery is absolutely essential for the person to have a good quality of mental health, so it certainly isn't wasting money. I know a lot of people have this view, I don't know if that indicates our societies transphobia, or our ignorance about mental illness (I know I sound preachy, but bear in mind I've only educated myself on these issues, I had similar views quite recently).

Suicide is extremely prevalent amongst trans people- http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan...ender-20140127

Any social issues and stats you read about- violence, bullying, depression, homelessness, etc- relating to trans people tend to make very miserable reading. When you realise how truly **** it is to be trans (overall), the basic respect than help they ask for really doesn't seem unreasonable.

I can't really think of much more important things to be spending my taxes on than preventing suicide.
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Rakas21
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#152
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#152
(Original post by phaedron)
I may be wrong but I dont think therapy works at all for trans people
Therapy does not work for a lot of people with mental health issues. That alone is not justification to step up to surgery.
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TimmonaPortella
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#153
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#153
(Original post by Mankytoes)
When you realise how truly **** it is to be trans (overall), the basic respect than help they ask for really doesn't seem unreasonable.

I can't really think of much more important things to be spending my taxes on than preventing suicide.
Do you have any evidence that it's actually 'helping' them, or that giving them the surgery does anything to decrease the suicide rate?

edit: not necessarily saying you're wrong, I'd just like to see stats etc.
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phaedron
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#154
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#154
We need to compare suicide rates between those with mental counselling those with no counselling and those who go the surgical or hormonal route
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Mankytoes
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#155
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#155
(Original post by TimmonaPortella)
Do you have any evidence that it's actually 'helping' them, or that giving them the surgery does anything to decrease the suicide rate?

edit: not necessarily saying you're wrong, I'd just like to see stats etc.
A quick google indicates that it's highly debated. I did find this "A 1998 review by the Research and Development Directorate of the NHS Executive found attempted suicide rates of up to 18% noted in some medical studies of gender reassignment." from (http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...h.mentalhealth), which would be a significant decrease, but hardly a cheery result.

The trouble is, a lot of post operative transwomen (I say transwomen because most transmen I see look like men. If you take a load of testosterone and grow a beard, you will look like a man) are still noticeabley trans, and our society is still pretty transphobic. A lot of people, as evident on this thread, refuse to accept them as female, which is obviously a key point of the surgery. For the mental health of trans people to be equal to that of the general population we need society to change, not just their bodies.

I think a lot of it is luck. While some transwomen look pretty feminine, I've seen others who have had the surgery and, and I know this is horrible to say, just look like men in drag. I can't imagine that does much for their self esteem. But I'm only assuming. What we do know is medical professionals have accepted this surgery is important and necessary.
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TimmonaPortella
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#156
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#156
(Original post by Mankytoes)
The trouble is, a lot of post operative transwomen (I say transwomen because most transmen I see look like men. If you take a load of testosterone and grow a beard, you will look like a man) are still noticeabley trans, and our society is still pretty transphobic. A lot of people, as evident on this thread, refuse to accept them as female, which is obviously a key point of the surgery. For the mental health of trans people to be equal to that of the general population we need society to change, not just their bodies.
I genuinely don't know about this. I cited an article by a psychiatrist (former chief at Johns Hopkins medical school iirc) in a post I made earlier in the thread (second page iirc) who says that, actually, we're harming them by collaborating in and encouraging a mental disorder. It may be that he's like the occasional climate change denying scientist you find (I doubt it, but it's possible), and the profession in general has made up its mind the other way. But if that's not the case I feel like we're a bit premature in telling everyone that they must treat transwomen (if I have this the right way round) as women and vice versa. (Obviously if they've had the surgery already then there's not really any going back, so I suppose we may as well in that case.)

I think that is especially the case given, as I suggested earlier in the thread, I don't think the issue is very commonly actually thought about. I think most people come down on a side either because they react strongly to things they consider a bit weird or because they want to be seen as super liberal and accepting. I've always just gone along with it, used whatever pronouns I've been asked to, etc, because it's just easier not to cause offence, but I'm not sure if I'm actually doing the right thing there. Ultimately it's a matter for psychiatry, and I don't (and I suspect most other people in this thread don't either) know much about the psychiatry.

Again, if anything I've said is easily corrected by evidence, anyone who wants to cite such evidence is welcome.

edit: I suppose you make a good point in saying that medical professionals have accepted the surgery as helpful, and if the evidence is behind that I support its being made available.
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Катя
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#157
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#157
(Original post by young_guns)
But trans people are, which presumably means they must believe there is some substance to gender/sex or why would they bother to mimic the characteristics of the sex they think they are?
This. This has always played on my mind.

Identifying as a woman - how? Either we accept that woman = a certain set of personality/character traits (and vice versa), and conclude with something along the lines of "all women are X, Y and Z" (which is... not ok, as usually these are derogatory and/or 'inferior' characteristics - think of the classic 'feminine = quiet, beautiful, submissive, etc'), or we reject gender roles/stereotypes/whatever you want to call them and the idea that genitals/chromosomes clearly and consistently correlate with personality, and must be 'fixed' if they don't (see: gender reassignment surgery).

Obviously, there is sex dysphoria. I know nothing about that (and neither do I really know anything about gender theory).

But to 'identify as a woman' or 'identify as a man' has always plagued me for the reasons outlined above.
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cole-slaw
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#158
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#158
(Original post by Mankytoes)

Suicide is extremely prevalent amongst trans people- http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan...ender-20140127

.

and the rate is unaffected by a gender realignment surgery...

Only a sadist would deny that we clearly need to find a more effective course of treatment.
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Mankytoes
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#159
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#159
(Original post by TimmonaPortella)
I genuinely don't know about this. I cited an article by a psychiatrist (former chief at Johns Hopkins medical school iirc) in a post I made earlier in the thread (second page iirc) who says that, actually, we're harming them by collaborating in and encouraging a mental disorder. It may be that he's like the occasional climate change denying scientist you find (I doubt it, but it's possible), and the profession in general has made up its mind the other way. But if that's not the case I feel like we're a bit premature in telling everyone that they must treat transwomen (if I have this the right way round) as women and vice versa. (Obviously if they've had the surgery already then there's not really any going back, so I suppose we may as well in that case.)

I think that is especially the case given, as I suggested earlier in the thread, I don't think the issue is very commonly actually thought about. I think most people come down on a side either because they react strongly to things they consider a bit weird or because they want to be seen as super liberal and accepting. I've always just gone along with it, used whatever pronouns I've been asked to, etc, because it's just easier not to cause offence, but I'm not sure if I'm actually doing the right thing there. Ultimately it's a matter for psychiatry, and I don't (and I suspect most other people in this thread don't either) know much about the psychiatry.

Again, if anything I've said is easily corrected by evidence, anyone who wants to cite such evidence is welcome.

edit: I suppose you make a good point in saying that medical professionals have accepted the surgery as helpful, and if the evidence is behind that I support its being made available.
Some interesting reading, I checked the link and he made some good points. The only thing that makes me question his stance is this part- "People who undergo sex-reassignment surgery do not change from men to women or vice versa. Rather, they become feminized men or masculinized women"- we all know that, we know they don't literally, medically, biologically become women. For me, that's like going to a funeral and someone saying "he's with Jesus now" and replying "no he isn't, he's rotting in the ground with worms eating his eyeballs". He seems to be pretending he doesn't understand the difference between sex and gender, because I can't believe he doesn't know that, which makes me question his motives.

Surely that's more a matter of manners? If someone wants to be referred to in a certain way, it's polite to accept if the request is genuine and reasonable. I really don't see how you think refusing to do that could possibly help someone? No doctors have suggested we should do so, have they?
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Mankytoes
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#160
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#160
(Original post by cole-slaw)
and the rate is unaffected by a gender realignment surgery...

Only a sadist would deny that we clearly need to find a more effective course of treatment.
If you're going to argue against my reputable source, it's only fair that you give your own reputable source.

It depends if you have evidence to back this up. But either way, it's pretty clear that our society does not treat trans people well, and it seems very logical that this is a big contribution to the suicide rate and other problems they have, so no matter how good the medical treatment, these problems won't go away until society progresses.
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