Is Paying For Sex Immoral,Are Men That Do It Losers? Watch

bluemax
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#141
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#141
I don't think its immoral. Getting sexually frustrated and raping girls in the street is immoral.
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iama
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#142
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#142
(Original post by James Milibanter)
and supposedly "we don't need feminism" hahaha
we need to be more accepting with each other, I think. It seems hard to get along nowadays..
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thePatron
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#143
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#143
(Original post by iama)
r u still mocking me?
No
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iama
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#144
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#144
(Original post by thePatron)
No
No sex for y'all
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young_guns
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#145
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(Original post by James Milibanter)
I think that paying for sex is immoral, for the simple reason that those that sell themselves are doing so as a last resort. I doubt that they are willing (the majority anyway), and therefore paying for sex is taking advantage of women who have found themselves in extremely difficult situations with no other alternative.
I really don't see how it is inherently immoral. And please keep in mind it is not just women who are sex workers, there are also male sex workers (though the customers are almost exclusively men in both cases).

What if a sex worker decides that they'd rather do sex work and earn a good living that way rather than work in a factory for minimum wage? Say you have a man or woman who decides that they'd rather earn a couple of thousand a week doing sex work rather than working in a canned food factory and struggling on the poverty line?

In one case, the worker uses one part of their body on a production line. In the other case the worker uses another part or parts of their body in one-to-one interactions. I think we should respect people's choices; I am utterly opposed to human trafficking or when people are forced into sex work, that is absolutely immoral. But that has no moral implications for people who genuinely choose to do that line of work.
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thePatron
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#146
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#146
(Original post by iama)
No sex for y'all
Alrighty then.
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iama
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#147
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#147
(Original post by Foo.mp3)
Unfortunately many married men do use hookers

It’s potentially better in some senses, yes. Best overall, let alone morally correct, I am a lot less sure about

I don’t know the scenario you’re talking about but unfortunately the case study evidence I have seen re: drug and prostitution liberalisation does not uniformly support broadly improved social outcomes

What proportion of sex workers do you estimate experience no problems as a result of their ‘work’? (it’s rather a large IF)

It is partly that, yes, but also a reflection of what those values instilled in all of us e.g. personal dignity, respect, and psychological/interpersonal stability ~ healthy family lives ~ social sustainability

Course not. We take the naked Western equivalent, cake her in makeup, fake tan, fake hair, fake eyelashes, fake nails covered in garish paint, lacey lingeree, and clothes that accentuate her feminine form and draw in hapless horny males, then send them out to go squeeze the semen out of such sados, and all in the name of cold hard currency. Totally progressive, totally moral :rolleyes:

I’m sorry but I just don’t buy that you would actually be all: “Oh you’re a hooker now mom? Totally fine

Think of it as an early Christmas present, from me, to you

N’om sayin’?

Haha, well bowled :top2:

Most are, sure you get some hot shot city boys who could go pull but cba and would rather just 'bank' a high class hooker but they're still losers in my view, albeit for slightly different reasons

You can’t not mind something e.g. be bothered by it, and also be ok with it :laugh: You can, however, come to accept it. This does not make it moral however, just tolerable

Horse ****, I certainly don’t :scrooge:

Unfortunately it is, because that is what morality is concerned with, and morality is the focus of the thread title

:nopity:

The person who said it is female :facepalm2:
I saw that you answered the question title already and said that you find it not moral. I kinda explained what I think of this already and am not going to say everything again, just that basically I'm standing on my stance. You have not made a point that A. Contradicts mine or B. Is strong/important enough to change my mind. Maybe that's not your intention anyways, in which case, good. You seem to find disagreeing things in phrases with which I don't agree either. Yes, being ok with it means not giving it much thought, kinda like it doesn't bother me, it can be either night or day. Other than that, I've kinda lost track of my quotes in your text, so yeah, my fault. Your way of approaching things seems very..hm..dogmatist, and I feel that no matter what my words are, a good end won't be reached anyways. Maybe we'll reach neutre ground, but I'm not interested in that right now, I'm a person that goes by moods after all.

I'd say from experience that failing to see from different POV and to understand little variations of words and emotions point to a not so mentally pressing general experience with life, but since I have too little minds to go by, I'd only toss it out here as a personal opinion which could be easily proven flawed. Also, your 'mother' example, realistically and obviously the most extreme case someone would have to go by (unless in person, which I haven't approached anywhere) is a bit of a long-shot and used only to put me (or who knows whom you've talked to else) in difficulty. Too bad it's not always working, but then, the subject must be pushed further, aye? I have answered that example several times, so I went with it, knowing that the general thought in this situation would go to that, even though the thread isn't about it. But I also don't see the necessity of inducing such a case, that, let's face it, happens in an not so big percent, to people that don't go through it. Having those poor (meaning, pitiful) people go through this should be already an exageration in life, I wouldn't wish that to anyone just to be sure, without trying to induce the sick feeling even further. Now, the issue isn't bringing up the subject by any means, but the fact that it becomes forced. We seem to be forced to feel as bad as possible in this hypothetical situation, because why not? No. Learning to accept hardships is a part of life and if people hella want to feel damn proud or happy or lucky or indifferent or sad or disgusted or depressed, then they should damn be allowed to be so, not to have people go around and say that what they're feeling isn't 'right, normal, real' or is 'gross, unnatural, a lie'. True, I'm passing through it by imagination, but that's all really most of us here could do. Who the h could be happy in this situation? Maybe if they didn't know. But you can live through it, thus making it 'ok', making it 'liveable', 'able to not mess up said person behaviour/mind'. That's what I meant by it. That's what it means to it, so if you're gonna go again and say that this and that ain't right or aren't equivallent, I'm probably going to be pissed, so not of your care, but that's all I can do. I like those mature people that can just stop replying when there's no further need, but sadly, I am not like that. I generally like to stand up my part and poove my point.

TL;DR: I don't care, just don't read, it happens. I like to write long texts. Also, this ain't funny, just putting it out there.

edit: my english
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masterridley
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#148
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#148
(Original post by Foo.mp3)
Unfortunately many married men do use hookers

It’s potentially better in some senses, yes. Best overall, let alone morally correct, I am a lot less sure about

I don’t know the scenario you’re talking about but unfortunately the case study evidence I have seen re: drug and prostitution liberalisation does not uniformly support broadly improved social outcomes
It's always a clash between pragmatism and idealism, the latter is almost always misguided. The demand will always be there, it isn't going to change because many men are promiscuous. It's an evolutionary thing and I'm not saying this as an excuse as I'm not one of those guys.

In my ideal (but realisable) world, all sex workers would be under state employment and protection. Things must be regulated if they can't be avoided. Otherwise, they go underground.

What proportion of sex workers do you estimate experience no problems as a result of their ‘work’? (it’s rather a large IF)
Of the sex workers in the street, I think many have problems and of the dangerous kind which is bad.

Of the escorts, only a small percentage face these problems. They're safer because they work from home or at an agency. Psychologically most seem a-ok with it. Please do read the saafe forums so that you see what escorts think of their job firsthand. Maybe you'll arrive at a different conclusion.

Also, you should read some studies on pornstars while you're at it, they are pretty illuminating. Contrary to what you would expect they are not less happy than the general population. They have more self-esteem than other women for instance. A lot of them used to work as waitresses but couldn't handle the boring so they turned to this, exploiting their assets so to speak. Really, just look at which professions have the highest suicides, it's ain't pornstars!

It is partly that, yes, but also a reflection of what those values instilled in all of us e.g. personal dignity, respect, and psychological/interpersonal stability ~ healthy family lives ~ social sustainability
Don't conflate what you wouldn't do with what other people wouldn't do. Many women don't associate personal dignity with this. It's just a job for them.

My own values boil down to this: I would like as many people as possible to be happy. Turning prostitution into an underground thing does not do this for the poor sex workers IMO.

Course not. We take the naked Western equivalent, cake her in makeup, fake tan, fake hair, fake eyelashes, fake nails covered in garish paint, lacey lingeree, and clothes that accentuate her feminine form and draw in hapless horny males, then send them out to go squeeze the semen out of such sados, and all in the name of cold hard currency. Totally progressive, totally moral :rolleyes:
One, we don't do any of those things to women, if some women have it done to them against their will, then we're talking about slave trafficking and it's exactly this thing that which should care about and try to eradicate, not women who think differently than you.

Two, I would take the Western equivalent over the Eastern one any day. Repression does not work like you think it does. Ask women in Egypt about harassment and see what a joke that Western video was. Ask women in Afghanistan whether they're happy that high 'moral' standards are upheld (the only country where female suicides outnumber male ones).

You're thinking about moral values and not about people. That's your problem. No offence.
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Hopefulbunny
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(Original post by James Milibanter)
I think that paying for sex is immoral, for the simple reason that those that sell themselves are doing so as a last resort. I doubt that they are willing (the majority anyway), and therefore paying for sex is taking advantage of women who have found themselves in extremely difficult situations with no other alternative.
Females , like males, come in all flavours. Some choose their work, others don't.
One "extremely difficult situation with no alternative" is an unhappy marriage. Think that one through. A pro can turn down a punter. A wife has a more difficult situation to handle.
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James Milibanter
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#150
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(Original post by Hopefulbunny)
Females , like males, come in all flavours. Some choose their work, others don't.
One "extremely difficult situation with no alternative" is an unhappy marriage. Think that one through. A pro can turn down a punter. A wife has a more difficult situation to handle.
I appreciate your point but please understand that despite how it came across my argument purely my own opinion and I didn't expect everyone to agree with me. After all, we all have our own moral code. Personally, I believe that our bodies are shrines to be worshipped upon and that sex working among other forms of work devalues that (but all this comes fundamentally into my rather "extreme" political and economical views on wage slavery). But I did mention that there are those much more qualified in the morals of prostitution, such as sex workers themselves, and I did mention that there should be further provisions to increase the safety of sex workers.
You might disagree with some of my opinions, but I honestly welcome that, it is the path to enlightenment that is correcting faults and progressing onwards.
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Hopefulbunny
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#151
(Original post by James Milibanter)
I believe that our bodies are shrines to be worshipped upon .
You can worship my body but don't forget to pay first honey.
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James Milibanter
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#152
(Original post by Hopefulbunny)
You can worship my body but don't forget to pay first honey.
HAHA I wont be able to rep this enough
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Hopefulbunny
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#153
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#153
(Original post by James Milibanter)
HAHA I wont be able to rep this enough
Xxx
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Hopefulbunny
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#154
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#154
(Original post by James Milibanter)
HAHA I wont be able to rep this enough
Still worshipping? Box of tissues is two strips of latinum.
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James Milibanter
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#155
(Original post by Hopefulbunny)
Still worshipping? Box of tissues is two strips of latinum.
Trekky or geek hipster?
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Hopefulbunny
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(Original post by James Milibanter)
Trekky or geek hipster?
The rules of acquisition are a masterpiece. Any business girl would do well to learn them. Punters too. A moral code to live an honourable life by.
That'll be another two strips.
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matthewduncan
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#157
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#157
(Original post by unprinted)
'Controlling prostitution for gain' - what people running agencies etc do - is illegal, so I hope you've reported them. (If not, why not?)

As it happens, I know quite a lot of sex workers too. I worked at one popular London-based health project for five years. In that time, I met just over a thousand sex workers, including people working independently, for agencies, in a brothel, or doing street work / hustling (or more than one of those!) Although many of them were from outside the UK, we only knew of one who had been trafficked. (They were in Brighton, but the police there contacted us because of our reputation as the project to go to.)



I don't say that it doesn't, but it is clearly not the experience of anything close to a majority.



In order to get certain services or get particular treatment from the Home Office, you have to say you were "trafficked" and being forced to work, so there is an incentive to do so even when it's not true.
nah im not a grass.
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iama
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(Original post by Foo.mp3)
I seem to be the one with an open perspective here, so I don't know why you're implying that you're the one. Typing it out does not make it true. You are not simply stating an opinion, you seem to be forcing it on people. And no, this thread is NOT about that, like I've said. It is about general morality. What I've talked with you is just about mothers, which is a part of it, but to go as far as make the whole discussion about it is pushing it way too far. Get rid of your fixations if you want to make a fair point. And no, it's not that wide spread. I can't look up again and see the the exact number you gave, I'm not in a confortable typing situation amd it would take time, but nothing can convince me for it to be a third of the woman population, at least that's what I remember seeing. Not all of the children of said women know about their mothers. If it is indeed this common, certainly a less fraction of them know.Disregard this if wrong quote.

I can't see where you point out the hypocrisy, since I've kept my ideas the same since the beginning amd I'm treating everything I can fairly in my subjectivity. My idea wpuld be that you do not belive what I said to be true, you don't see it viable, so you decided that it's not a possibility, thus making me a social liar, just so that I won't back up and let you have it. In my first response I said that it doesn't bother me as long as I have no connection with it. I never infirmed that. I didn't say it wouldn't bother me if my mom did that. Playing with words is very fun, an advice would be for you to not keep them so confined. They should be free and expressive, liberal and story-tellers, you just coqueted with poetry after all, right? Words have meanings for every one of us, if you don't give them a bit of personal spin off it seems very sad.

Keep your opinions, who am I to say they're truthfully wrong? And I'm also kinda happy to have this conversation, in a way, but that unbudging and sometimes cocky way of expressing your point is ughhh, so unheartening. Makes me harsher. I'm used to my liberal, everything-goes, way of seeing things, coming face to face with this doesn't look too pink. :s
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unprinted
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#159
(Original post by matthewduncan)
nah im not a grass.
So you think that...

(Original post by matthewduncan)
most escorts in this country are forced by romanian,bulgarian and other easter european sex gangs.
.. and ..

(Original post by matthewduncan)
I know a lot of pimps socially and through business.
.. i.e. you know "a lot" of the people you say are forcing women to be prostitutes, but you're not prepared to do anything about it?

And it's the clients who are immoral?!?
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Hopefulbunny
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(Original post by Foo.mp3)
The adjective is dogmatic,* and yes, I certainly can be, however here I have not been dogmatic so much as clear and accurate, which is necessary in a discussion such as this (a dogmatic person will be exacting in situations where it is simply not called for)

I would encourage you to consider pride a vice, to open your mind up to different possibilities, and to acknowledge good sense and sound logic. You don’t have to, but it will help you become all you can be

Yes, it’s an extreme example designed to make people who make throw away comments stop and consider the full ramifications of those comments. It’s all too easy for one to casually comment in a liberal fashion but actually be found out as hypocrits when it comes down to it

This is a major bone of contention I have with liberalism (as a ‘movement’), the massive ‘NIMBY’/’Ivory tower’ element in it, which reveals it for what it is.. little more than a cloud of ideologues whom do not have their feet firmly on the ground and instead float about aimlessly wherever the wind blows (without purpose, direction, substance, or credibility). Hmm, that was an almost poetic analogy :hippie:

The thread is about morality, and moral judgements may be deemed applicable to all of humanity, or else you are really asking for trouble e.g. “Sure it’s moral, just as long as it doesn’t involve anyone I am personally connected with”

The truth is we don’t know how big a percentage but if the estimate of 100,000 sex workers in the UK is valid then we’re looking at a third of one percent of the population (of women), so yes, not big numbers. The numbers of British men using these hoes are big, however. A recent study put the percentage as high as 11%, and I’ve previously seen an article that indicated 14% e.g. 3,500,000 – 4,500,000 have used one in their lives

People are entitled to feel, and express how they feel, for sure, but when posting on a public forum they are also to expect open and frank discussion, and must respect the right of others to express contrary views on all matters

No-one in their right mind would argue to the contrary

Perhaps a social evolutionary thing, but to me a perverted and nefarious maladaptation with insidious ramifications for both individuals and society more broadly

Likewise, as a short to medium term solution, paired with other endeavours designed to discourage people from entering this ‘market’ and to encourage ‘workers’ out of it as well. The only problem with this approach is that you create a black market if you regulate it meaningfully, and risk making matters worse in some important respects e.g. as per the Dutch experience

They are statistically speaking, safer than street workers, for sure, but still at risk

1. Appearances can be deceptive

2. The longer term impacts may take time to emerge and may remain largely unknown to individuals (subconscious)

3. The difficulties of these people in forming high quality relations during/following such ‘work’ are self-evident and commonly reported when you examine/hear about the lives of these individuals in depth (unless they are able to make a clean break on a number of levels, including psychologically, which can be tough)

4. If future partners find out, with the best will in the world they are less likely to take sex worker/former sex worker partners as seriously, and hence more likely to mistreat them/have rocky relations. How many self respecting, decent men, for example, do you think would settle down, marry and start a family with a hooker/ex-hooker, realistically? Mostly only beta guys would do this, and human nature being as it is there would likely be significant perceived value imbalance in the relationship (either way); not a sustainable basis for a high quality/LT relationship

I have personally known people who’ve been paid for sex/had sugar daddies etc, thanks

You’re only touching the surface with this analysis, again you find that these men and women often struggle to form high quality bonds in lasting relationships with partners they actually respect, who genuinely respect and value them too

You’re missing the point and need to get in the real world. These women don’t exist in a bubble, they are social actors. Until the rest of society are all in a hooker mindset personal dignity does come into it I’m afraid; you don’t get many sex workers going around openly telling everyone they know, meet, work with/for, etc what they do. Why? Because it’s broadly conceived of as being undignified

Who has suggested it should be turned into an underground thing (any more than it already is)?

We, as a society/culture, absolutely do, albeit indirectly

I’m sorry, who is trying to oppress people? :confused:

The thread title/topic principally concerns morality, and it should be fairly apparent that my thinking/knowledge is, rich, varied, and multi-faceted. If it’s not, I’d say that’s your problem buddy :borat:

The Victorian era called, said they wanted their bull**** wenchlock dichotomy back :laugh:
Your obviously not married
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