'I don't need feminism because...' Watch

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Truths
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#141
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#141
(Original post by lasertown)
Thank you. I am also a big fan of how you managed to retain your logical and composed state of mind even in the face of aggressive attacks. It can sometimes be very tempting to stoop to others' levels, especially during such a heated debate on a controversial issue.

Personally I think we should bin terms like feminist (not at all disregarding what some feminists have done to progress equality) considering that we are at a point now where there are clear, indisputable issues for both genders that need to be addressed.

One of my first doubts about the meaning of feminism surfaced in Sociology, when my teacher told me men couldn't be feminists, because "problems were worse for women". I completely blanked at that, it completely excludes an entire gender.

There is no confusion or bias or misconceptions with gender equality. It is what it is. For too long it seems on this issue of gender equality that it's almost men vs. women, when we should be hand in hand.
Why are you youngings so obsessed with labels? It's really petty. As it stands, gender equality is still an issue, and yes it's still worse for women. We should be confronting the issue at hand, not semantics. What your sociology teacher may or may not have said is a non-issue. Grow up.

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HigherMinion
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#142
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#142
(Original post by louieee)
Do you want me to just ignore the huge pay gap (which does exist, most notably in the US), and the fact that women are 9x more likely to be raped than a male? Are these not disadvantages? I could list lots more if you like.


You mean that pay gap that arises as a consequence to a woman's choices? I see.

On the rape thing: that's a startling statistic, but 9X0 is still 0.
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lasertown
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#143
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#143
(Original post by louieee)
does it really matter, they're still aiming for equality, not claiming supremacy?

It's hard to make things equal in a world of instability, so they focus on the woman's side of it and try to overcome the more extreme things which need attending to. It's like people who try to overcome racism, they're not one-sided, they just recognise for instance that it's more valuable to minimise the pay gap by increasing the wages of people of colour to match that of whites, rather than put their efforts into smaller things like promoting the fact that white people can be rappers too.

I know it'd be near impossible to eradicate any sort of discrepancies between the genders, but I think it's fairly obvious that women are at a greater disadvantage overall, and it isn't helping that people have this negative narrow-minded view about feminism without really knowing what it means. Anyone who doesn't believe in equality is a fool in my opinion, and if people can't see that the only way for a disadvantaged group to even approach equality is by advocating their rights then they're just silly.

Women got the right to vote because somebody advocated women's rights, not because women were like "ooh men and women both have inequalities ooh so lets allow women to actually have tea parties without their husbands permission and then to make it fair we'll let men wear make-up too without prejudice". See what I mean? Sometimes the bigger issues need to be focussed on and addressed, even if on the surface it does seem one-sided.

And the pay gap, I mean that's a pretty important issue (at least in the US) so I think that's a thing to focus on in particular, and things on that scale is mostly what feminism is all about, it's not just about letting girls not shave their arms, it's about objective inequality which can be measured.

I don't see why feminism and men's rights people can't go hand in hand, like one group can focus on teaching boys that it doesn't matter what a girl is wearing because it isn't a mixed message f she says 'no' no matter how short her skirt and you can just learn to control yourself because rape is only a woman's fault if she is doing the raping likewise it's only a man's fault if he is the rapist, and the other can help men see that they don't all need to spend their weekend at the gym, just like how not all girls have to perfect liquid eyeliner to please people. But without the advocacy of anybody's rights, those right's won't be won.
There is sometimes an underlying claim of supremacy in what some feminists say-- sometimes. I do not believe however, that all feminists are like this. Not at all. I do however believe that in the movement of feminism, women are almost completely focussed on, which I think is very retrogressive.

I get the gist of what you are trying to put across, but I disagree.

From the comparisons you have drawn, this is what I have concluded:
  • minimising pay gap - comparable to women's issues
  • white people can be rappers too - comparable to men's issues


This is just another clear example of feminists (assuming you are one) minimising men's issues. So you are saying, the fact that according to English law, men cannot be raped, is not a massive issue?

You say women have a greater disadvantage overall, why? Women's issues are worse for women and men's issues are worse for men, therefore it is (as I have already said) subjective. We feel more strongly about issues that immediately affect us. Therefore we can not compare it at all.
What you are suggesting is not equality. If it were, you would have no problem with what I had stated.
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Truths
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#144
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(Original post by ClickItBack)
Men commit the vast majority of crimes, and particularly violent crimes.

The vast majority of men are straight.

Therefore it is neither sexist, nor an indication of a 'rape epidemic culture' that women are sexually assaulted in much higher numbers than men.

Also worth noting that men are much more likely to be physically assaulted than women are to be sexually assaulted - but you don't see constant refrains about 'assault culture' or plaintive cries about victim blaming nonsense on that topic.

Bad, violent criminals will always exist and they will always be mostly male. For men, this means they will always be at risk of physical assault; for women, they will always be at risk of sexual assault. The sooner they get over that and accept it, the better for their own sakes.
Well if men can pinpoint an issue within our own demographic and chose not to solve it, then that's our prerogative. I don't know why women should have to be equally as careless. I'm aware of biological differences, but I'm sure men are more likely to commit crime because females are often more restricted at a young age and our taught not to get that pretty dress dirty at all costs, whereas men are encouraged to take more risks and identify masculinity with violence from a young age because of media. Young boys are assert their masculinity graffiti, gang culture maybe, heavy drinking, fighting etc leading to a predisposition of criminal activity. So many social factors can be examined and changed for the better I'm sure tho.
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louieee
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#145
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#145
(Original post by HigherMinion)


You mean that pay gap that arises as a consequence to a woman's choices? I see.

On the rape thing: that's a startling statistic, but 9X0 is still 0.

You don't think that men get raped? Well then you're hardly one to talk about gender inequality and prejudice my friend. 10% of rapes are with a male victim.

Though if you do think that all rapes are done towards women, then that doesn't suggest there's a bit of a gender problem there?

And I'm sorry but that video is bull****.
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lasertown
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#146
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#146
(Original post by Truths)
Why are you youngings so obsessed with labels? It's really petty. As it stands, gender equality is still an issue, and yes it's still worse for women. We should be confronting the issue at hand, not semantics. What your sociology teacher may or may not have said is a non-issue. Grow up.

At what point did I say that gender equality is not an issue?
How many times have I had to repeat this: saying it's worse for women is an opinion and it is subjective.

You are quite clearly biased.

The semantics of the issue is what is stopping it from progressing. Therefore, it is only logical to address that, clear up confusion, come to compromises, and then confront the issue. These issues aren't simple, we can't rush into them when everyone is against each other. These are matters that need to confronted in concert. Co-operation is key.
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joker12345
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#147
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#147
(Original post by louieee)
you realise without feminism a woman wouldn't even be able to vote for a party, let alone stand up for parliament? So that's one half of the population barred on account of their gender anyway :')
I don't think anyone's disputing the good feminism has done in the past.
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Truths
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#148
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#148
(Original post by lasertown)

You say women have a greater disadvantage overall, why? Women's issues are worse for women and men's issues are worse for men, therefore it is (as I have already said) subjective. We feel more strongly about issues that immediately affect us. Therefore we can not compare it at all.
What you are suggesting is not equality. If it were, you would have no problem with what I had stated.
Believe me, as a man, I would never want to trade places in society with a woman. And I don't know a soul who would. Our issues are not real issues, they just serve to distract from the real conversation. The fact that I can not proudly cry or hold my male friends hand in public is really not the same as the misogyny women claim to endure. I can acknowledge that. And I know it's true, which is why I would never want to exchange gender roles with women.
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joker12345
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#149
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(Original post by Truths)
Like when a man has a long sexual history, he's the man but if a female did the reverse she's a whore.
When a man takes charge, he's the man, but when a woman takes charge, she's bossy, she's a ***** etc. Things like that. :bebored:
And when a woman decides to remain a virgin she's pure and desirable, but if a guy does he's a weirdo or a loser.
When a woman cries/shows emotions she's a normal person with emotions, if a guy does he's not a 'real man' or a sissy etc.
I've said this before, these are issues of gender inequality, not female oppression. The very fact thst you're recognising and pointing out the disadvantages to women, but completely ignoring the bias against men sums up feminism.
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louieee
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#150
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(Original post by lasertown)
There is sometimes an underlying claim of supremacy in what some feminists say-- sometimes. I do not believe however, that all feminists are like this. Not at all. I do however believe that in the movement of feminism, women are almost completely focussed on, which I think is very retrogressive.

I get the gist of what you are trying to put across, but I disagree.

From the comparisons you have drawn, this is what I have concluded:
  • minimising pay gap - comparable to women's issues
  • white people can be rappers too - comparable to men's issues


This is just another clear example of feminists (assuming you are one) minimising men's issues. So you are saying, the fact that according to English law, men cannot be raped, is not a massive issue?

You say women have a greater disadvantage overall, why? Women's issues are worse for women and men's issues are worse for men, therefore it is (as I have already said) subjective. We feel more strongly about issues that immediately affect us. Therefore we can not compare it at all.
What you are suggesting is not equality. If it were, you would have no problem with what I had stated.
No, and I admit in my example I was a little biased because it's very late and I couldn't think off the top of my head anything better. I acknowledge that men can be raped, something this guy doesn't:


(Original post by louieee)
women are 9x more likely to be raped than a male
(Original post by HigherMinion)

On the rape thing: that's a startling statistic, but 9X0 is still 0.
and I know it's a huge issue, which is why I think it needs to be treated as separate because otherwise -

if people are like "men have disadvantages and so do women" and that frame of mind becomes common, we run the risk of thinking that both genders are equl and so we might just come complacent and not bother advocating anyone's rights because "we're all equal after all so lets just allow 90% of rapes to have female victims, because afterall the minority of rape victims are male and those men can't charge their attackers with proper rape so that balances out the fact that a women has one in six chance of getting sexually assaulted".

Again with that last point I'm aware I was being somewhat biased again, but I can't help but feel that every inequality that men face, women encounter that same aspect but a little more severe, whereas a lot of disadvantages women have aren't reciprocated in the male world.


But I'll forget about that for a moment, lets just assume that both genders have an equal number of equally-sized inequalities: I still can't see why a group of people can't advocate the rights of 50% of the population while another group does the same for the other, ultimately aiming towards the same goal - equality.

Though in my opinion, after endless research and looking at the statistics, many of the largest, most prominent issues are with women as the sufferers, and I think it's really important that these issues are focussed on.

Another example, gay rights. Millions of people were protesting to allow gay marriage, but why weren't they advocating straight rights too? Like how straight men's masculinity is mocked when they wear make-up? Or protests for the rights of people of colour when white people face discrimination too. It's ridiculous for every single group out there that advocates rights for a specific demographic to just lose focus on their group, because then nothing would get done. What I'm saying is, women do face inequality in certain aspects of their lives, and I don't see why people can't have the aim to change that. I donate to WWF, but I can't spread myself thin and donate to BHF, macmillan, oxfam and all this other stuff too. I'm focussing on the issues which are important to me, because I know that there's somebody else donating to all these other charities.



I can't really explain :s
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louieee
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#151
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#151
(Original post by joker12345)
I don't think anyone's disputing the good feminism has done in the past.

well who's to say it can't continue to do good? When did it turn from a good thing to a bad thing? When did gender equality become undesirable?
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lasertown
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#152
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#152
(Original post by Truths)
Believe me, as a man, I would never want to trade places in society with a woman. And I don't know a soul who would. Our issues are not real issues, they just serve to distract from the real conversation. The fact that I can not proudly cry or hold my male friends hand in public is really not the same as the misogyny women claim to endure. I can acknowledge that. And I know it's true, which is why I would never want to exchange gender roles with women.
That's great for you, but when did you become the representative for an entire gender? Just because you think men's issues are trivial, that does not by any means mean that all men think this.

It is very easy to use examples that assist your opinion, which you have done in this case in an attempt to trivialise men's issues.
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HigherMinion
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#153
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#153
(Original post by louieee)
No, and I admit in my example I was a little biased because it's very late and I couldn't think off the top of my head anything better.



I can't really explain :s
My point exactly. Thank you for being honest.

P.S. I was being hyperbolic with the numbers on rape. I guess you didn't get the idea :/
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Truths
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#154
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#154
(Original post by joker12345)
And when a woman decides to remain a virgin she's pure and desirable, but if a guy does he's a weirdo or a loser.
When a woman cries/shows emotions she's a normal person with emotions, if a guy does he's not a 'real man' or a sissy etc.
I've said this before, these are issues of gender inequality, not female oppression. The very fact thst you're recognising and pointing out the disadvantages to women, but completely ignoring the bias against men sums up feminism.
And as I already said, all these disadvantages men face are a biproduct of misogyny anyway. Men are taught to repress their emotions outside of anger, because emotions are seen as feminine, and females are seen as less than. A girl can wear a suit, and its fine because she's being a like a man and masculinity is desired. A man can not wear a skirt because it's lesser than to be a woman. A woman can sleep with another woman because it's masculine, a man can sleep with another man but that's more feminine thus it is wrong. When a man is weak, he is like a girl. Run like a girl, throw like a girl, fight like a girl, we've heard em all. You need to understand that there is backlash to oppression, but it's not nearly as bad as the oppression. Even if I can't expression my emotions, it's not like I'm more likely to be raped than a woman or something. It's petty. Who cares.
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Truths
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#155
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#155
(Original post by lasertown)
That's great for you, but when did you become the representative for an entire gender? Just because you think men's issues are trivial, that does not by any means mean that all men think this.

It is very easy to use examples that assist your opinion, which you have done in this case in an attempt to trivialise men's issues.
It's that trivial that MRA actually started out as satire. A little food for thought.
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lasertown
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#156
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#156
(Original post by louieee)
No, and I admit in my example I was a little biased because it's very late and I couldn't think off the top of my head anything better. I acknowledge that men can be raped, something this guy doesn't:






and I know it's a huge issue, which is why I think it needs to be treated as separate because otherwise -

if people are like "men have disadvantages and so do women" and that frame of mind becomes common, we run the risk of thinking that both genders are equl and so we might just come complacent and not bother advocating anyone's rights because "we're all equal after all so lets just allow 90% of rapes to have female victims, because afterall the minority of rape victims are male and those men can't charge their attackers with proper rape so that balances out the fact that a women has one in six chance of getting sexually assaulted".

Again with that last point I'm aware I was being somewhat biased again, but I can't help but feel that every inequality that men face, women encounter that same aspect but a little more severe, whereas a lot of disadvantages women have aren't reciprocated in the male world.


But I'll forget about that for a moment, lets just assume that both genders have an equal number of equally-sized inequalities: I still can't see why a group of people can't advocate the rights of 50% of the population while another group does the same for the other, ultimately aiming towards the same goal - equality.

Though in my opinion, after endless research and looking at the statistics, many of the largest, most prominent issues are with women as the sufferers, and I think it's really important that these issues are focussed on.

Another example, gay rights. Millions of people were protesting to allow gay marriage, but why weren't they advocating straight rights too? Like how straight men's masculinity is mocked when they wear make-up? Or protests for the rights of people of colour when white people face discrimination too. It's ridiculous for every single group out there that advocates rights for a specific demographic to just lose focus on their group, because then nothing would get done. What I'm saying is, women do face inequality in certain aspects of their lives, and I don't see why people can't have the aim to change that. I donate to WWF, but I can't spread myself thin and donate to BHF, macmillan, oxfam and all this other stuff too. I'm focussing on the issues which are important to me, because I know that there's somebody else donating to all these other charities.



I can't really explain :s
I do not think anyone would think that. Also, your example was biased again, which you actually admitted. Therefore it doesn't stand at all.

You have exactly proved my point. You said that you can't help but feel women have it more severely, this is called subjectivity. A man could easily say the opposite. These problems are no comparable.

Having two different groups: one for women and one for men, just divides us further. This is why we are having this debate right now.

"I know that there's somebody else donating to all these other charities."
If everyone had the same mindset as you, no one would ever donate to charity.
Also, if there was only one charity focussing on all gender equality, then you would have less charities to donate to, therefore I have no idea what you are trying to say and your point makes no sense.
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lasertown
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#157
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#157
(Original post by Truths)
It's that trivial that MRA actually started out as satire. A little food for thought.
That's even worse, and completely shows how ingrained it is in society, proving my point entirely. Thank you.
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louieee
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#158
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#158
(Original post by lasertown)
x
also we're assuming the fact that feminism and masculism (real word) are exclusive. There isn't a name for advocating everybody's rights (apart from being a decent human), and so...

if I advocate women's rights I'm supporting feminism

if I advocate men's rights I'm supporting masculism



Whichever I support, I'm still believing in gender equality, it's just that each one only focuses on one half of the problem. But whose to say I can't be both? I can advocate women's and men's rights, right? Either way, I'm still a feminist. I'm a masculist, too, but I'm still a feminist.

The girls on the front page with their signs are foolish, they're basically stating that women's rights shouldn't be proposed.

Read this, my reply to someone else:

Read each of the girl's signs. One of them thinks feminism is not about equality, and instead it's about supremacy. Another thinks that feminism is useless because rapists know that they shouldn't rape anyway (I genuinely can't get the logic here at all). Another doesn't want feminism because she realises men have issues too (does she not realise that feminism is for equality of all genders?). Another is against feminism because she doesn't want to demonise men (feminism =/= man-hating) and she takes responsibility for he own actions (is she taking responsibility for her smaller paycheck than her male counterparts too?). Another doesn't need feminism because she doesn't think women are at a disadvantage - well the statistics say otherwise: she's 9x more likely to be raped, and if she's american she gets paid only 77% of her male counterpart. Another doesn't need feminism because she loves men and respects their rights...lol k. And also apparently feminism made her feel in dangers, and it steps on the black community?? Another doesn't need feminism because it apparently implies that she's currently weak (I really can't see the logic there, all it implies is that in some major aspects of her life she isn't going to be considered equal to a male counterpart, for example in media portrayal, job prospects and pay, sexual assault etc).


And now think, all of these girls are being more ridiculous, because they assume that gender equality by advocating women's rights comes at the cost of leaving men's rights behind, but that isn't what it means. Anti-feminism gets a very bad name when it's members 1. don't know the definition of feminism and 2. don'd understand that feminists can't advocate men's rights too.
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lasertown
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#159
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#159
(Original post by joker12345)
And when a woman decides to remain a virgin she's pure and desirable, but if a guy does he's a weirdo or a loser.
When a woman cries/shows emotions she's a normal person with emotions, if a guy does he's not a 'real man' or a sissy etc.
I've said this before, these are issues of gender inequality, not female oppression. The very fact thst you're recognising and pointing out the disadvantages to women, but completely ignoring the bias against men sums up feminism.
Completely agree. Well said. Majority of feminists completely disregard men's issues, and then claim to be advocates of gender equality.
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rosebud114
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#160
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Ugh this pisses me off so much, many of their reasons for not wanting feminism aren't very good! 'because It focus on equality not on entitlements and supremacy' A supremacist wrongly identified under the title of a feminist is NOT a feminist! and the 'entitlements' she is talking about is what real feminists are focusing getting rid of.

It angers me that people don't know 'real feminism'! all these Tumblr bs and supremacist/misandrist's making men feel attacked when really that isn't what feminism is about. If you feel threatened by the name 'feminist' because it has 'fem' in front of it, don't be because women brought forward the movement so that argument really should stop! anyway..

I don't need anti-feminists telling me I don't 'value men' or their 'rights' because OBVIOUSLY I do. Having discovered that women have rights over the past years, don't you think I have acknowledged men have rights too?

The sex crime BS with the first women angers me soooo much because I don't know what she was actually trying imply there;that we should just stop working towards major issue like rape or sex trafficking? That them knowing it's wrong is enough.. "so lets just carry on and live under this lovely thunder cloud because the perpetrators know it wrong and we know its wrong so lets just carry on like nothing is happening because I can't stand feminism so I am just going to just accept that this disgusting behaviour happens and not try and do anything about because I am too ignorant in my own beliefs to accept that the world out side my perfect little bubble could be terrifying for someone else, so I'm just going to sit back and leave this awful world for my children and grandchildren UGHHHHHHHHH"

Why I typed this up at 5 in the morning, I don't know but ugh I hate this hatred for feminism.
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