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Sharp rise in halal abattoirs slaughtering animals without stunning them first. Watch

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    (Original post by itsmyname)
    No half way about it. Either you go vegan or vegetarian, or you ONLY buy poultry and meat that has been cared for the best possible way.

    If you somehow give a **** about the way it was KILLED yet don't care about the atrocious conditions they're kept in whilst alive, then you're a hypocrite.


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    ^This.
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    (Original post by itsmyname)
    No half way about it. Either you go vegan or vegetarian, or you ONLY buy poultry and meat that has been cared for the best possible way.

    If you somehow give a **** about the way it was KILLED yet don't care about the atrocious conditions they're kept in whilst alive, then you're a hypocrite.
    Beautiful.
    • Thread Starter
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Go vegan like me. Then you can realistically point the finger since you have no contribution to the suffering of animals.
    Firstly, you don't have to be a vegan to care about animals and have a valid opinion on this topic.
    Secondly, this thread deals with a more specifically defined topic than the killing of animals in general for food.

    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    And how is exsanguination with animals any different to fish being drowned/suffocated and crab and lobster being boiled alive in restaurants?
    It is different in many ways, some blindingly obvious. Your comment is a poor example of the Whataboutery Fallacy.
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    (Original post by radicalboujie)
    Funny thing the mcdonalds you eat buy battery farmed chicken, yeah the ones where they're treated like ****??
    But nah halal meat it is

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    22 Ups? If that is Muslims voting I wouldn't be surprised. It's obvious which one is worse, you have bias. Also, barbaric nonsense like this should have been abolished long ago.
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    (Original post by Moh.1Ace)
    I think he's arguments straight to the point and valid.. your just islamaphobic.
    Dude, throwing words like 'islamophobic,' (retarded word) only makes the word less impactful as a whole. If being against barbarity, and insanity, then yes, there are a lot of people you like to label: 'islamophobes.'
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    (Original post by R Dragon)
    1) Animals die daily in the wild in much more ferocious environments

    2) Halal/Kosher killings are faster and more humane than such natural wild killings

    3) If you truly care about the animals, then go protest barn chickens, who live in cramped conditions, injected with chemicals and denied the right to ever see the sun. But then again, you probably love chicken too much to care

    Great response! Really mature and well-handled! A comment that should be acknowledged and greatly commended!
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    "You must abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. If you do this, you will do well. Farewell.


    ACT 15 NLT


    So there we are. Christians are unknowingly going against their religious teachings by being force fed halal/kosher.

    Tells us a lot about which religions are important and which aren't.
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    Hey Everyone

    I would firstly like to apologise for not reading all the posts up until this point, I find in most instances the posts seem to deviate further and further from the topic of discussion, especially when it comes to talking about Islam.

    Let us look at stunning first, the RSPCA slaughter Fact file mentions the following three methods for stunning which are practiced in the UK;

    1) Penetrating Captive Bolt Gun
    2) Electrical
    3) Gas Stunning/Killing

    Let us look at each one individually

    Penetrating Captive Bolt Gun (most common)
    • Stunner uses a pointed bolt
    • The bolt penetrates the skull of the animal, enters the cranium, and catastrophically damages the cerebrum and part of the cerebellum.
    • Due to concussion, destruction of vital centres of brain and an increase in intracranial pressure, the animal loses consciousness
    • This method physically destroys brain matter (increasing the probability of a successful stun), while also leaving the brain stem intact (Wikipedia)


    The video below shows this in practice;
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHNomtLAbKU (Watch 4:01 to 5:10)

    This next part is of course my own opinion, but I don’t know about you, the animal’s reaction to the stun gun seems pretty painful to me

    The Narrator asks an important question – ‘Imagine for moment, firing a handgun up to 300 times an hour, every hour, day after day, week after week…could any weapon operate at such a rate?’

    I believe some of you made mention to a German study (I didn’t read it with much detail so forgive me if im wrong) that showed how stunning actually caused pain, some of you refuted this by saying that the stun gun turned out to be faulty….if they had a faulty stun gun in a controlled experiment done by scientists imagine the chances of there being a fault in a stun gun used ‘300 times an hour, every hour, day after day, week after week’.

    Electrical (least common)
    • Electrical current sent through the brain and/or heart of the animal before slaughter.
    • Current passing through the brain induces an immediate but non-fatal general convulsion (spasm / fit) that produces unconsciousness
    • Current passing through the heart produces an immediate cardiac arrest (heart attack) that also leads shortly to unconsciousness and death
    • Over-stunning negatively affects the quality of the meat, and therefore under-stunning is an attractive practice for slaughterhouses
    • With chickens for example, over-stunning leads to bone fractures and/or electrocution which prevents bleeding of the animal.
    • Understanding increases the chances of the animal not losing consciousness and therefore feel the full blow of the electrical current (Wikipedia)


    Again, my opinion, but the production of a heart attack through an electrical current sounds pretty cruel to me, even if its claimed that the animals loses consciousness immediately. I may not be looking hard enough, but I can’t find a study that can prove this procedure to be painless and that every animal loses consciousness after the first electrical current.

    Gas stunning

    • Animals are exposed to a mixture of breathing gases carbon dioxide for example, but historically carbon monoxide was used
    • This produces unconsciousness or death through asphyxia (the fancy word for suffocation)
    • The process is not instantaneous. (Wikipedia)


    Here’s a video depicting an animal going through this method of slaughter

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N082tXCac08 (0:49 onwards)

    My opinion - In my opinion, there is no aspect of this that looks humane, none what so ever – it has cruel written all over it…



    Muslim Method of Slaughtering Animals

    Now, let’s move to the Muslim method of slaughtering animals
    Muslim method of slaughtering animals is called the Dhabihah

    For the meat to be considered halal, three conditions must be met:
    1. The animal must be healthy and uninjured and, crucially, it must be killed using a well-sharpened knife to make a swift, deep incisions that cuts the front of the throat, the carotid artery, windpipe and jugular veins
    2. All the blood must be drained from the animal’s body.
    3. The slaughterer must recite the appropriate Islamic prayer at the time of slaughter and the head of the animal but be aligned with the Qiblah (the direction in which Muslims pray 5 times a day)


    Let us consider the verdict of Joe Regenstein who is a Professor of Food Science at Cornell University in the United States who leads the Universities Kosher and Halal Food Initiative.

    ““Many of those attacking religious slaughter have no clue as to what is happening, It is more of an Islamophobic issue, not an animal well-being issue.” Compared to modern, secular methods of slaughter, he says, “the traditional or Prophetic method might actually be equal or possibly superior” because the initial pain of the throat cut results “in the animal releasing large quantities of endorphins, putting it in a state of euphoria and numbness”. The cut thus serves as its own stun. The scientific evidence against halal slaughter, Regenstein says, “is extremely weak and has often been done poorly with an agenda driving a desired outcome”.
    (http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...halal-hysteria)

    Remember, that is not my own opinion but rather the words of a renowned Professor at Cornell University (who isn’t a Muslim)
    Professor Regenstein makes reference to Endorphins


    Professor Regenstein makes it clear that these endorphins put the animal in a state of numbness

    Let’s move on to the study done in 1978, led by Wilhelm Schulze of the University of Veterinary Medicine Hanover which showed that ‘the slaughter in the form of a ritual cut is, if carried out properly, painless in sheep and calves according to EEG [electroencephalography] recordings and the missing defensive actions [of the animals]”.

    Note that the German Federal Constitutional Court based its 2002 verdict permitting ritual slaughter on this study.
    (http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...halal-hysteria)

    Opinion -This study also showed how stunning with Penetrating Captive Bolt Gun caused pain but some of you have said that the stun-gun was faulty or something so for argument sake we won’t use that as evidence –however one point needs to made clear, just because someone has claimed the stun-gun was faulty doesn’t mean its correct –especially when no evidence is provided. Even in the case the stun-gun was faulty, the study still showed that ritualistic slaughtering of animals is painless –please don’t argue that the knife was faulty and that it was meant to cause pain….please. Remember that this isn’t a random study that had no significance, the German Federal Constitutional Court based its 2002 verdict of allowing ritual slaughter in Germany on this very study.

    Let us also consider the writings and research of Temple Grandin, professor of animal sciences at Colorado State University and one of America’s leading experts on the humane treatment and slaughter of livestock. She sees no difference between stunned and non-stunned slaughter if both are conducted properly and professionally. When a ritual slaughter is “done really right”, Grandin has said, “the animal seemed to act like it didn’t even feel it – if I walked up to that animal and put my hand in its face I would have got a much bigger reaction than I observed from the cut, and that was something which really surprised me”.
    (http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...halal-hysteria)

    Again, let us note, this is a person of credibility –a professor of animal sciences at Colorado State University and one of America’s leading experts on humane treatment and slaughter of livestock –emphasis on the ‘humane treatment and slaughter of livestock’ –why would a person whose job is to promote humane treatment and slaughter of livestock describe the ritualistic slaughter as ‘the animal seemed to act like it didn’t even feel it’ – this alongside the findings from the German study in 1978 in my opinion paints a pretty clear picture

    Note the following video that shows how the animals are meant to be prepared before slaughter

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeNJHw4MoT4 (4:55 onwards)
    Incase this man is secretly the ‘goat whisperer’ here are some more;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb5LZCwWNh8
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHjfYGrn2zE

    Please, please, please note, I have cited everything ive written, I’ve clearly mentioned when im referencing to my own opinion as best I can and also purposely tried to make reference to people of note who are not Muslim to prevent the whole ‘oh, they would say that, they are after all Muslim, they have a vested interest’ The professors ive made mention to have no vested interest but rather are specialist in these fields and know more about this kind of stuff more then all of us combined.



    Now, Macro1 where are my manners, forgive me for neglecting your post for so long, you are after all the Thread Starter.

    (Original post by Marco1)
    Perhaps we should just ban all Halal and Kosher meat from the UK? Personally I think it makes no sense to appease and tolerate religious ritual slaughtering methods in a country as humane and advanced as Britain.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/reli...hem-first.html

    As far as I know SubWay in the UK is now all Halal. Many UK hospitals now serve only Halal slaughtered meat in their visitors restaurants. How can Britain be so Halal when the vast majority of it's citizens are purportedly non-Muslim? Aggressive bullish campaigning I gather. It appears they don't care a damn for what British non-Muslims prefer to eat, as long as their wants are met. The situation speaks for itself and it's about time British non-Muslims grew a backbone and stuck up for their human rights too. I'm all for soundly reasoned improvement and change but Britain seems to be sliding all too easily into a dystopian alternate reality, becoming increasingly disconnected from itself.

    Firstly, I have to admit…I absolutely love how you made reference to ‘Halal and Kosher’ but the title of the Thread and the little paragraph following the telegraph link made no mention to Kosher but rather of how it’s ‘’about time British non-Muslims grew a backbone and stuck up for their human rights too’’ –quick question Marco….aren’t Jews ‘British non-Muslims’ too? You know, the people that eat kosher meat and also practice ‘religious ritual slaughtering’?

    I also fell in love with how yourself and PapaPork, paint this picture that the treatment of animals throughout their lifetimes hold no meaning and how it’s all about the last minutes of their lives...

    Though I have (in my opinion) dealt with your ‘cruelty’ argument above, there are some other points that I wish you’d consider…

    You make reference to ‘aggressive bullish campaigning’ as being the cause of the ‘sharp rise in halal abattoirs slaughtering animals without stunning them first’ – So, let me get this straight… your telling me…abattoirs who have been subjected to gazillions of petitions, thousands of campaigns about the way animals are treated throughout their lives and have done little/ nothing about this, suddenly out of nowhere care about Muslims and their ritualistic slaughtering…if they haven’t given in to all those campaigns which have been endless and all those organisations set up to challenge the way they treat animals…then why do they suddenly care?

    Maybe the halal UK meat market being estimated to be worth £3 billion might have something to do with it, maybe that’s why fast-food chains in the UK such as McDonald’s and Domino’s Pizza are working on trails offering halal meat? Do you think the company executives in MacDonald’s and Dominos sat down one day and thought – you know what? We’ve gotten so many letters from Muslims and they’re outside campaigning day and night, why don’t we give halal meat a try?

    Marco… the rise in halal meat has very little to do with Muslim campaigning – everybody wants to make more money and tap into that £3 billion market.

    ‘Many UK hospitals now serve only Halal slaughtered meat in their visitor’s restaurants’ –This statement has little to no evidence to verify it. The next time you find yourself in a UK Hospital I would recommend the pork or bacon –I promise, it won’t be halal.

    You ask ‘how can Britain be so halal when the vast majority of its citizens are purportedly non-Muslims? – Your right, only about 5% of the British population is Muslim, so why is everything turning halal? – For a start this vast majority who are non-Muslim…don’t care if it’s halal or not… and people who eat meat know how badly animals are treated and don’t think ‘oh this animal was treated like a prisoner for all its life, but because it has been slaughtered in the Muslim way, which I think its cruel, im not going to eat from here!’

    On the other hand, when a Muslim goes out to eat / buys meat, the first thing on their mind is if it’s halal or not? And spend money accordingly.
    For those of you who just can’t stomach halal meat –consider this, please do not fool yourself into thinking that you care about animal welfare, because if you really did you would be a vegetarian. And…just be upfront…you don’t have a problem with pain caused to the animal but rather a problem with that its Islamic – my advice to you –the next time you’ve been cornered into a halal restaurant and you have no-where else to go and this is your last resort, I recommend going for the pork option or why not sprinkle some alcohol all over your plate – it will make the meal not halal

    Dear Student Room…. We here are the new generation…Will we following the footsteps of our fathers and build a world of hate and intolerance of other religions (Muslims do this too) or will we through love and compassion help make this world a better place.

    Martin Luther King said “Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.”
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    (Original post by xGCSE_Studentx)
    Great response! Really mature and well-handled! A comment that should be acknowledged and greatly commended!
    Haha, thanks dude!
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    How much are you willing to bet that most providers who say their meat is "Halal" actually just sell normally grown and killed meat, because why waste money on extra procedures when you can just stick a label?
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    how about you just stop eating meat all together... animals die its the circle of life go revise or something and stop wasting your time.
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    lol this is so funny !!!

    At the endof the day us humans are at the top of the chain its our own personal choice how we kill the prey !
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    (Original post by itsmyname)
    No half way about it. Either you go vegan or vegetarian, or you ONLY buy poultry and meat that has been cared for the best possible way.

    If you somehow give a **** about the way it was KILLED yet don't care about the atrocious conditions they're kept in whilst alive, then you're a hypocrite.
    ^^ This. I'm not a vegetarian but I don't buy anything that hasn't got some kind of reassurance on it that the animal lived a decent life. Ideally I buy meat from the local farm shop as I've seen those very animals happily out in the fields all their lives, but there's not always a farm shop around!

    On the other hand I also give a damn about how an animal is killed. If we can put an animal out of pain i.e. stun it or make it unconscious prior to killing it, I think we should. The idea that slashing its neck so its lungs fill up with blood and it gradually dies of lack of brain perfusion is somehow humane is messed up. Yeah it doesn't take long but the animal is aware of all of it!

    Personally if I knew that an animal had been killed in the 'halal' method, I would not buy that meat. Unfortunately it's rarely ever advertised so as a consumer you can't really make many choices.
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    I really couldn't care less how my meat is slaughtered unless it affects the quality, safety, or the price the meat.
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    If religions didn't have a concept of ritual slaughter, we would have banned non-stun slaughter ages ago. And most people, even non-vegetarians, would agree that it causes less harm, and is therefore beneficial. The EU banned non-stunned meat, for this same reason. However, religion gets the special privilege of not being subject to a law that everyone else is subjected to. How is this, in any way, just?

    For those that cry 'Islamophobia', would you be in favour of banning non-stunned meat if the issue of ritual slaughter wasn't relevant to the discussion? Would they support a group of farmers resisting legislation if they weren't doing it on religious grounds, and if they weren't Muslim? Why is it that ideas, and ideologies, aren't protected (and nor should they be; would you support protecting Marxist ideas and granting them privilege over non-Marxist ideas?) unless they are in the guise of religion or 'faith'. As if simply claiming 'this is my faith' grants your ideas a higher status than ideas that don't purport to have been issued by a deity.

    Until last year, 90% of halal-labelled meat was stunned. Research shows that non-stunned halal slaughter has increased sharply in the last year. We were making so much progress, and now we're going backwards again. The fact that it is increasing means legislation is now necessary.
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    No problemo!!
    • Thread Starter
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    (Original post by Ahmad786sY)
    Firstly, I have to admit…I absolutely love how you made reference to ‘Halal and Kosher’ but the title of the Thread and the little paragraph following the telegraph link made no mention to Kosher but rather of how it’s ‘’about time British non-Muslims grew a backbone and stuck up for their human rights too’’
    Well you sound like quite the expert authority on the matter don't you? You certainly put forward that impression, and so smugly too.

    The title is simply quoted from the title of the news article link, which I assume you read. Unlike Kosher meat, I am confronted with situations where the only choice on offer in secular institutions in Britain, is Halal.

    (Original post by Ahmad786sY)
    I also fell in love with how yourself and PapaPork, paint this picture that the treatment of animals throughout their lifetimes hold no meaning and how it’s all about the last minutes of their lives..
    .
    That is not a fair comment and a different argument.

    (Original post by Ahmad786sY)
    ‘Many UK hospitals now serve only Halal slaughtered meat in their visitor’s restaurants’ –This statement has little to no evidence to verify it. The next time you find yourself in a UK Hospital I would recommend the pork or bacon –I promise, it won’t be halal.
    The lunch meal in my hospital is Halal meat only. Fact. Do you think I am lying? Do you think there are no other NHS hospitals with the same policy. Do your own research.

    (Original post by Ahmad786sY)
    You ask ‘how can Britain be so halal when the vast majority of its citizens are purportedly non-Muslims? – Your right, only about 5% of the British population is Muslim, so why is everything turning halal? – For a start this vast majority who are non-Muslim…don’t care if it’s halal or not
    How do you know that's the case? It's an assumption that suits you but seems without any real validity. To use your phrase, Where's your evidence to verify it? Common sense tells me it's rubbish. For example, do you really believe that people of other faiths don't care at all about Muslim ritual prayers being said while the animal is being slaughtered? How can you ignore this relevant factor? You sound very partisan to me, fighting for one side, rather than dispassionately seeking what is fair and right in this topic under scrutiny.
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    (Original post by Anonymοοse)


    There is no "humane" way of taking away life.

    Either you condemn all forms of animal slaughter or you sit down and be quiet. You really have no leg to stand on otherwise as the so called "humane alternatives" to halal and kosher aren't all that pleasant either.
    What a silly false dichotomy.
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    (Original post by itsmyname)
    No half way about it. Either you go vegan or vegetarian, or you ONLY buy poultry and meat that has been cared for the best possible way.

    If you somehow give a **** about the way it was KILLED yet don't care about the atrocious conditions they're kept in whilst alive, then you're a hypocrite.
    Err, I imagine most people who disagree with religious slaughter methods also disagree with poor farming conditions.
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    (Original post by R Dragon)
    1) Animals die daily in the wild in much more ferocious environments

    2) Halal/Kosher killings are faster and more humane than such natural wild killings

    3) If you truly care about the animals, then go protest barn chickens, who live in cramped conditions, injected with chemicals and denied the right to ever see the sun. But then again, you probably love chicken too much to care
    so you are under the impression that halal animals never had anti biotics or even growth accelerants injected in them either? perhaps you need to educate yourself a little more.
    halal refers only to the method of slaughter.
    you argument would only apply if you were proposing vegetarianism - i am one, but using this above argument is not an argument supporting halal. you argument seems to be -'animals die cruelly, so why not let people kill them with extra cruelty, because of some old tribal arab tradition' rather stupid
 
 
 
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