Are you voting for Ukip? Watch

Nickbonista
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#141
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#141
(Original post by michael90cr)
I am not sure if I can agree with you on the foreign policy side, while the EU are regulatory they protect certain human rights and provide freedom of movement. I do support Fiscal libiterianism to a degree, but at the same time I view the need for regulation. The one thing that I strongly support UKIP on is that they don't view the NHS as a given and had an open debate about deciding whether to fund it (I do agree with the NHS I just think it should not be given special treatment when other key budgets education and defence suffer massive cuts). However, there lack of proffesionalism and policy that I agree with means I will not vote for them. thank you for explaining your views without trying to make silly generic comments about your oppostion
The EU's regulations cost our business £40bn a year, and on the "human rights" side of things, there is no law passed in the EU that we could not make in our own Parliament, instead of having it enforced upon us. What's more, if we want regional or international cooperation on these matters, it's better to do it on an opt-in basis where we have a decisive say on what is decided, rather than having 75% of our laws handed down to us by an unelected commission and a Supreme Soviet parliament.

On the NHS, we had the debate because there is a need to consider the sustainability of a fully-funded health service with an ageing population and higher rates of diseases of affluence. We had the debate, and concluded that the NHS was better than any alternative (the insurance system Nigel was videoed discussing was the French-style system where private companies run the service but it's paid for by taxes). The debate has to be had though, almost nothing should be sacred and not subject to rational debate. Our NHS policies below.

The lack of professionalism is gone, there are a few nutters low-down in the party but we have a great front bench who speak on the whole range of policies. Two of our best policies are no tax on the minimum wage (personal allowance up to £13,500) and our education brief - grammar schools reintroduced, and no tuition fees for STEM and medicine courses. Full policy range below.

Here's our current policy document
http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people
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TCA2b
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#142
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#142
(Original post by michael90cr)
I also consider Economic policy more important, and as a result I believe we are best served with the conservatives. The EU is an increadiably complex and I don't believe me, you or Nigel Farage are educated enough to value it. The fact that the three main parties are close to consensus on this issue leads me to believe civil servants and other experts have largely come down on it being a net benifit. However, even if we did leave, we would most likely still follow most EU legislation like Switzerland but have no say in making it. Futhermore, we need the EU to tackle multi-national companies like apple, Amazon and stabucks otherwise we would have little influence over much of there practices.
Why do you need the EU for that? To combat tax avoidance? All they are doing is complying with the local laws, to the letter, anyway... they're not doing anything illegal, or for that matter, 'wrong', and provide immense value to the UK by offering their services and stationing their offices here, irrespective of how much tax they do or do not pay. Perhaps if the government charged levels of tax more commensurate with services provided, I'd have more sympathy for it. I also don't buy this "consensus = good" thing. The fact that they are close to consensus simply means they are serving their own interests (or those of the lobbyists whom they represent), which more often than not align, and is certainly not indicative of any well-reasoned thought process behind it. The EU is certainly complex but that isn't an argument to remain in it, either.

I also don't buy this "no compromise" stance from the EU on doing trade with it. It can certainly try that, but the UK buys a lot of goods from countries like Germany. It is in their interest to continue this and to do so on a free trade basis, irrespective of whether the UK follows their legislation, which it has only the most minimal say over now as it is. The UK is not very popular in EU legislative circles... if the EU were scaled back to being nothing but a free trade area, I'd quite like it. That isn't its direction of travel, however.
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Nickbonista
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#143
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#143
(Original post by michael90cr)
He's making the point borders are mostly arbitary while they ususally have some logic they arn't always. ake the middle-east for example after colonial rule from Europe, their borders don't make sence as such it has caused cultural tension and multiple wars. The idea in the EU is that open borders helps facilitate trade and industry. I personally believe if that where your are born should have no impact on your rights whether it be housing, Jobs or benifit, if someone else is willing to undercut you, you offer a better service or match the price. You shouldn't get prefirential treatmeant becuase you are born in the UK. I have britsh ancestry for generations and am white and if someone from Germany, Poland or Romania take an opportuity from me because they deserve it, fair dues to them because that does't make me entitled to a Job or Benifits
Post-colonial borders aren't a feature of Europe apart from Eastern Europe post-1918, as we're now seeing in Ukraine (non-existent before then). I was making the point that borders, when left to their own devices, establish themselves, usually around features of the land. Open borders and political union in the EU do not affect trade, there will be a supply and demand based on the goods and services being exchanged. A free trade deal independent of political union would be far preferable, then let business get on with trading goods.

On the being born somewhere having no bearing on your rights, clearly every government in the world disagrees. I believe that people who fit into a society, usually as a result of being born into it, but also immigrants who integrate, should be treated as full members of the society. That involves speaking the language, knowing the history of the country, respecting and following the laws of the land, and having a respect for your fellow citizens/subjects. If anybody wants to come to the country, they should be somebody who will improve the country substantially, so bringing skills that are very valuable or that we have a deficiency in, speaking our language, not being a burden on public services, and having the knowledge of the things above (history, laws etc.) to be able to integrate socially as quickly as possible.

It all comes from the nation-state being the largest body within which it's possible for people to be subconsciously unselfish, because of what they share. If you have a huge melting pot of society (which has nothing to with tolerance of differences) then the people will be more divided than united, and it will not function as a society. Examples should spring to mind.
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Maker
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#144
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#144
I don't see UKIP as libertarian at all.

They want to control immigration of "unskilled" workers but surely that should be decided by the market for jobs and workers.

They want to reverse marriage for gays but why would they want the govt to interfer with someones' free choice to get married to whoever they want.

They want to enforce "britishness" and make immigrates integrate but what is "britishness" and what is integration?

UKIP at the moment is defined by opposing other parties but it has really nothing to define itself apart from wanting to have less immigration but you can't build a govt on that alone and they don't seem to by very certain about that now since they changed their minds on a 50,000 limit on "skilled" migrants.
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Kangie
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#145
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#145
Even if I was of legal age to vote, I would vote for any party other than UKIP. Everytime someone mentions that party my face just scrunches up in disgust.
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biodesign
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#146
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#146
(Original post by Maker)
They want to control immigration of "unskilled" workers but surely that should be decided by the market for jobs and workers.
It is not controlled by the market for jobs and workers, it is controlled by the EU free movement of people. Further, the EU free movement of people does not mean you need a job secure. It is just free movement. It has caused community tension and pushed a lot of peoples wages down.

My view: We as a country should put it to British Citizens in a referendum who controls our borders.

Question for you and others: Do you think the European Union should decide who settles in Britain or British people?

(Original post by Maker)
They want to reverse marriage for gays but why would they want the govt to interfer with someones' free choice to get married to whoever they want.
There is more than one side to this argument. Further, if a church or place of worship does not wish to conduct a ceremony, it has the right to do so. See? This is a much bigger issue and 'libertarian' views works both ways.

(Original post by Maker)
hey want to enforce "britishness" and make immigrates integrate but what is "britishness" and what is integration?.
I don't personally like the term "Britishness" but I am certainly proud and patriotic to be English and British.

Integrate, very simple: Be able to speak the language before entering the country. Embrace our culture and heritage.

(Original post by Maker)
UKIP at the moment is defined by opposing other parties but it has really nothing to define itself apart from wanting to have less immigration.
http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people

Less immigration only? Please have a look.



Out of interest who are you intending to vote?
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mcgreevy1993
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#147
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#147
(Original post by biodesign)

Integrate, very simple: Be able to speak the language before entering the country. Embrace our culture and heritage.
I complete agree on this. I am all up for people immigrating for work but I wish to some extent they'd recognize they were in Britain.

It's really depressing to return to my home town from University, and go into certain areas of where I live (inner city) and see that shops aren't in English - adverts, foods, names. People don't speak English and I've become a minority in places I've grown up.



I understand the idea that everyone should be equal and it would be comfortable for them to continue to embrace their culture and bring something with them. But when vast areas are unrecognizable to any form of English culture doesn't anyone think it's gone to far?

I've had a lot of arguements with people about this at University who have called me racist or stupid for my view, but most of these people grew in countryside and don't really see the mass affects of immigration.
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biodesign
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#148
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#148
(Original post by mcgreevy1993)
I've had a lot of arguements with people about this at University who have called me racist or stupid for my view, but most of these people grew in countryside and don't really see the mass affects of immigration.
So it is racist to want people to come to this country and be able to speak English and embrace our culture... and have a job to come to.

Do people at your University think Canada, New Zealand and Australia are racist? As they have a point-based system.

The word racism has been so disgustingly dis-valued people do not even know the meaning anymore.

I want immigration, just controlled and skilled immigration so ANYONE who possesses qualities to benefit this country can come happily!
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Maker
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#149
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#149
(Original post by biodesign)
It is not controlled by the market for jobs and workers, it is controlled by the EU free movement of people. Further, the EU free movement of people does not mean you need a job secure. It is just free movement. It has caused community tension and pushed a lot of peoples wages down.

My view: We as a country should put it to British Citizens in a referendum who controls our borders.

Question for you and others: Do you think the European Union should decide who settles in Britain or British people?



There is more than one side to this argument. Further, if a church or place of worship does not wish to conduct a ceremony, it has the right to do so. See? This is a much bigger issue and 'libertarian' views works both ways.



I don't personally like the term "Britishness" but I am certainly proud and patriotic to be English and British.

Integrate, very simple: Be able to speak the language before entering the country. Embrace our culture and heritage.



http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people

Less immigration only? Please have a look.



Out of interest who are you intending to vote?
People move from one part of the country to other for all sorts of reasons, why should it be OK to move from Birminghan to London but not from Warsaw to London? British people are free to move to other EU countries for any reason, I think thats a good trade off.

No one wants to force a church to marry someone they dfo not want, there are plent of other places people can get married, why should the state intefer with what people want to do?

What is Britishness? And why should you want people to be British? Why don't British people in countries like Spain and Franch have to learn the language, the customs and history and be more Spanish and French?
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biodesign
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#150
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#150
(Original post by Maker)
People move from one part of the country to other for all sorts of reasons, why should it be OK to move from Birminghan to London but not from Warsaw to London? British people are free to move to other EU countries for any reason, I think thats a good trade off.
I never said it was not okay for someone from Warsaw to move to London. As long as they have a job to come to, can speak the language and have a skill to bring. Would you disagree with that?
A good trade-off? We have a minimum wage which is between 6 to 8 times greater than Romania, Poland and Bulgaria. So a good trade-off it is not.

(Original post by Maker)
No one wants to force a church to marry someone they dfo not want, there are plent of other places people can get married, why should the state intefer with what people want to do?
I have no issues with it, but whilst we are under the EU court of human rights there is a massive risk that faith communities would have to commit to doing just that, but I am not overly sure on the latest information on this.

(Original post by Maker)
What is Britishness? And why should you want people to be British? Why don't British people in countries like Spain and Franch have to learn the language, the customs and history and be more Spanish and French?
I did not suggest people should become British. I will copy the statement I made again for you:
Integrate, very simple: Be able to speak the language before entering the country. Embrace our culture and heritage.
You also implied that I do not think British people should learn the language of a country they move to and learn about the custom and history of the country. I believe they should.

Also remember, over 70% of the British population want immigration to lower. So surely the country should decide?
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Maker
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#151
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#151
(Original post by biodesign)
I never said it was not okay for someone from Warsaw to move to London. As long as they have a job to come to, can speak the language and have a skill to bring. Would you disagree with that?
A good trade-off? We have a minimum wage which is between 6 to 8 times greater than Romania, Poland and Bulgaria. So a good trade-off it is not.


I have no issues with it, but whilst we are under the EU court of human rights there is a massive risk that faith communities would have to commit to doing just that, but I am not overly sure on the latest information on this.



I did not suggest people should become British. I will copy the statement I made again for you:
Integrate, very simple: Be able to speak the language before entering the country. Embrace our culture and heritage.
You also implied that I do not think British people should learn the language of a country they move to and learn about the custom and history of the country. I believe they should.

Also remember, over 70% of the British population want immigration to lower. So surely the country should decide?
Would you insist someone moving from Birmingham to London has to have a job offer before doing so?
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mcgreevy1993
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#152
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#152
(Original post by biodesign)
So it is racist to want people to come to this country and be able to speak English and embrace our culture... and have a job to come to.

Do people at your University think Canada, New Zealand and Australia are racist? As they have a point-based system.

The word racism has been so disgustingly dis-valued people do not even know the meaning anymore.

I want immigration, just controlled and skilled immigration so ANYONE who possesses qualities to benefit this country can come happily!
My friend who kindly called me 'stupid''s arguement was, "not all foreign people are bad."
But a point based system would allow border control to eliminate the bad and bring in the good.

I couldn't of said it better myself - people deem anything has racist these days. Its a term used far to lightly and i think a lot of UKIP supporters are put off expressing their views because of the 'racist' labels theyll have.

It doesn't matter anyway, because on election day it is completely private and people can put their true choices privatley down and no one will have any comment over it.
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biodesign
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#153
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#153
(Original post by Maker)
Would you insist someone moving from Birmingham to London has to have a job offer before doing so?
That is internal migration, where the population does not go up or down, and it is mass immigration from outside the UK which has had a detrimental effect on wages, communities and public resources, such as schools and hospitals.

No, I would not insist this. As there would be a case by case reason for moving. Just like international migration should be a case by case reason for coming to the country.

Well being optimistic I hope if someone moves from Birmingham to London you would be doing so for a good reason such as a job offer or equal good reason.
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biodesign
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#154
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(Original post by mcgreevy1993)
My friend who kindly called me 'stupid''s arguement was, "not all foreign people are bad."
But a point based system would allow border control to eliminate the bad and bring in the good.

I couldn't of said it better myself - people deem anything has racist these days. Its a term used far to lightly and i think a lot of UKIP supporters are put off expressing their views because of the 'racist' labels theyll have.

It doesn't matter anyway, because on election day it is completely private and people can put their true choices privatley down and no one will have any comment over it.
Very petty to resort to being called racist whenever you believe in being self-governing. Also when I want anyone from any country to come and settle here if they have a skill and wish to contribute. Very frustrating.

I will vote UKIP, they're not perfect but the sooner we are out of the EU the better.
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Maker
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#155
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#155
(Original post by biodesign)
That is internal migration, where the population does not go up or down, and it is mass immigration from outside the UK which has had a detrimental effect on wages, communities and public resources, such as schools and hospitals.

No, I would not insist this. As there would be a case by case reason for moving. Just like international migration should be a case by case reason for coming to the country.

Well being optimistic I hope if someone moves from Birmingham to London you would be doing so for a good reason such as a job offer or equal good reason.
You have no information about why people move to different parts of the country.
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Gnomes&Knights
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#156
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#156
I'm most likely not going to vote UKIP. Liberal Democrats might get my vote. There isn't a single party that I feel that is perfect for me so I keep on changing my mind. I will certainly not vote Labour and the Tories. How are all UKIP supporters brainless? Some are intelligent.
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youarenot
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#157
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#157
I like how people still quote the 75% of our laws are created in Brussels thing, even though in that Clegg vs Farage debate on TV it was pretty much outed that that fact had no evidence behind it, in fact the HoC Libary Stat that Clegg came back with had quite an opposite %.

Personally I don't agree with the majority of UKIP's policies, they're more Tory than the Tory Party, but a lot of their supporters, not all, still believe that they're the party for the working man.

However, i'm not going to hate someone for voting UKIP like a lot of anti-UKIP people do, we've got a fair democracy for a reason, vote for who you want really. At the end of the day they can't get in power due to first past the post and safe seats, so all this will only result in a Labour win if UKIP can take a few seats from the Torys. Labour will definitely not give you an in/out referendum, so you might as well vote Conservative if you want one.
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biodesign
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#158
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#158
(Original post by youarenot)
I like how people still quote the 75% of our laws are created in Brussels thing, even though in that Clegg vs Farage debate on TV it was pretty much outed that that fact had no evidence behind it, in fact the HoC Libary Stat that Clegg came back with had quite an opposite %.

Personally I don't agree with the majority of UKIP's policies, they're more Tory than the Tory Party, but a lot of their supporters, not all, still believe that they're the party for the working man.

However, i'm not going to hate someone for voting UKIP like a lot of anti-UKIP people do, we've got a fair democracy for a reason, vote for who you want really. At the end of the day they can't get in power due to first past the post and safe seats, so all this will only result in a Labour win if UKIP can take a few seats from the Torys. Labour will definitely not give you an in/out referendum, so you might as well vote Conservative if you want one.
What UKIP policies do you disagree with?

EU Commissioner Viviane Reding said 75% of our laws are made in Brussels..

I see your logic on voting Conservatives, the problem is Cameron gave a cast-iron guarantee on an EU referendum and promised immigration would come down to tens of thousands. So the trust is gone.

Although, I genuinely can not imagine a Labour/SNP government.
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pleinsykes
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#159
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#159
Asking a hive of left-wing students who have never left the hug-bubble of education whether they are going to vote for UKIP isn't going to be very productive.
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DaveSmith99
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#160
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#160
(Original post by biodesign)
What UKIP policies do you disagree with?

EU Commissioner Viviane Reding said 75% of our laws are made in Brussels..

I see your logic on voting Conservatives, the problem is Cameron gave a cast-iron guarantee on an EU referendum and promised immigration would come down to tens of thousands. So the trust is gone.

Although, I genuinely can not imagine a Labour/SNP government.
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu_make_...per_cent-29589

Viviane Reding said it was 70% but claims to have been "interpreted wrongly" and doesn't stand by that figure.

The 75% is a figure that UKIP have come up with independently, and they won't tell anyone how they came up with it. I think I'll go with the House of Commons Library over a figure plucked out of the sky by Farage.
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